Would we be better of without EMOTIONS?

[kathycf]

Depends what "better" you want to measure?

Are green vegetable better for you?

Yes, it is possible to get objective scale measure for this?

Are computers better at controlling the braking system in a car on a icy road or humans?

Yes, we can get an objective scale measure for this?

Is red better than green?
Is 71 degrees better than 70 degrees?
Are brown eyes better than blue eyes?
Is spinach better than broccoli?
Is Coke better than Pepsi?

[Lote-Tree]

Is red better than green?

Red light has a different frequency than green So which is better depends on the context.

Is 71 degrees better than 70 degrees?

A 1 degree difference temperature makes a enzyme work or not. Depends on the context.

Are brown eyes better than blue eyes?

Brown light and blue light have different frequencies. I believe that blue eyes has some advantage in a snowy climate?

Is spinach better than broccoli?

Again the context? Levels of vitamin c would be different.

Is Coke better than Pepsi?

All these require a context.

Then, if you're right, I'd welcome my inevitable death and oblivion with open arms.

If we can download our consciousness into cyberspace then death would be irrelevant :-)

[kathycf]

I'm sorry, but you seem to want to reduce everything down to some extremely simplistic answer and I am afraid I don't accept that. You keep referring to "context", but subjectivity is really what it comes down to. There are some things that may be measured on an objective scale and there are some that are simply subjective. I think you are grasping at straws a bit here. Vitamin C levels? Pfft.

The fact remains that humans are not the only creatures that experience emotions. Other species feel at least anger, contentment and fear. Social bonding also occurs. None of these may be as complex as human emotions, as we could assume that complex emotions require complex brains...However, if an emotionless state was "better" wouldn't every species here already reflect that?

If there was some biological state of not feeling that was advantageous, would it not exist in nature already? The fact that it doesn't suggests to me that the ability to feel emotion is possibly necessary to survival.

[Lote-Tree]

I'm sorry, but you seem to want to reduce everything down to some extremely simplistic answer and I am afraid I don't accept that.

That is the beauty of logic :-)

You keep referring to "context", but subjectivity is really what it comes down to.

Even logic requires a context to work with.

There are some things that may be measured on an objective scale and there are some that are simply subjective. I think you are grasping at straws a bit here. Vitamin C levels? Pfft.

I am clutching at logic of straws ;-)

The fact remains that humans are not the only creatures that experience emotions. Other species feel at least anger, contentment and fear.

Yes. They do all these things. But most animals survive on instincts.

However, if an emotionless state was "better" wouldn't every species here already reflect that?

Plants and bacteria - the largest group of living things on this planet live without any emotions. And they thrive quite well.

If there was some biological state of not feeling that was advantageous, would it not exist in nature already?

It does and in abundance.

The fact that it doesn't suggests to me that the ability to feel emotion is possibly necessary to survival.

Emotions not necessary for survival.

[BlueSkyGB]

"Is red better than green?"

Not really...I'm one of those that genetics had the fortune to endow with
colorblindness.....red and green look...welll... very much alike in my color spectrum...
Now blues and yellows and various shades of what can only be described to a non color blind person as multitudes of shades of all the other colors kind of blended.......used to know a website where apparently people could see digitally enhanced photos that replicated what we see...oh well..short term memory or is that considered long term?.....

oops
back to the subject..
I really wouldn't like to have a life without emotions....
even those that are painful...death of loved ones....
I tell people that there are things that I should not have done in the past and things that I should have done,,,
but those moments and emotions have shaped me into the person I am today.

[Lote-Tree]

back to the subject..
I really wouldn't like to have a life without emotions....
even those that are painful...death of loved ones....
I tell people that there are things that I should not have done in the past and things that I should have done,,,
but those moments and emotions have shaped me into the person I am today.

Have you ever felt an intensity of pain of emotions that you wanted it to go away because you can't bear it?

[BlueSkyGB]

Several in fact...
death of my father from a long bout with cancer....is the most vivid....a multitude of emotions...pain, sadness, loss...relief for his freedom from pain...then the guilt of havings those feelings ...then the emotions of a very nasty divorce....time has mellowed those.....
another a long ago...memory....that I prefer not to discuss in public, sorry.

so yes...I think ..to quote and old song by the Band
Life is a carnival...

Enjoy it while it lasts...
as my tagline/sig says

[kathycf]

Plants and bacteria - the largest group of living things on this planet live without any emotions. And they thrive quite well.

Yes, I knew you were going to bring that up. Humans are just a weensey bit more complex than plants and bacteria. Insects too, actually. However, your opening post is would we be better off without emotions...unless you are a plant (is a Lote-Tree considered a plant?) then I suggest that the discussion be confined to sentient complex humans and leave plants and bacteria out of it. Humans have for better or worse shaped the planet to fit their needs and would this have been possible without the development of social structures driven by emotions and need. Emotions can and do drive need, all though they are not the only imperative.

Emotions not necessary for survival.

Yes, so you keep saying. You can repeat it 60,000 more times and your argument won't hold any more weight with me than it does now. I'm sorry Lote, you are a bright guy but you are not omnicient and all knowing, and the fact is I don't agree with you and I am not changing my mind based on the arguments you present. They simply aren't compelling enough...because there is no definitive proof and there never will be. All there is, is your opinion and while I think you're cool, your opinion doesn't equal fact.

Humans have always had emotions and will continue to have them. Arguments declaring life would be better without emotions or not are based on sheer speculation....speculation based on the thinking of a complex brain that has always experienced emotion and thus is somewhat biased? How do you know your argument isn't based on emotion...even an emotion you don't care to admit to?

Bluesky, yea...I agree. While I would not want to ever live over events and emotions in my past, they have shaped me into the person I am today, for better or worse. (probably a great deal more worse than better!)

[Lote-Tree]

Several in fact...
death of my father from a long bout with cancer....

My condolences. I lost my brother aged 18 to leaukemia. He was never ill in his life...

is the most vivid....a multitude of emotions...pain, sadness, loss...relief for his freedom from pain...then the guilt of havings those feelings ...then the emotions of a very nasty divorce....time has mellowed those.....
another a long ago...memory....that I prefer not to discuss in public, sorry.

so yes...I think ..to quote and old song by the Band
Life is a carnival...

Enjoy it while it lasts...
as my tagline/sig says

And you still don't think we would have been better off without emotions?

How about getting rid of negative emotions?

Like jealousy? Hatred?

[BlueSkyGB]

Without the mix, whether it be a large perentage or small...all of those together make me what I am...granted I'm not perfect....
far from it ....and probably a little crazy to boot.....
I wouldn't subtract any emotion from my life..
The lows have made the highs ..that much sweeter.

[Shalot]

I don't know that we would be better off without emotions. Some emotions keeps us in check don't they?

If I had to go without, I'd like to get rid of some certain memories that cause certain emotions.

[Lote-Tree]

However, your opening post is would we be better off without emotions...unless you are a plant (is a Lote-Tree considered a plant?) then I suggest that the discussion be confined to sentient complex humans and leave plants and bacteria out of it.

OK - my question is to them - would sentient complex humans be better off without emotions?

I say yes - because there would no hatred, jelousy, envy etc that causes some much strife in human relationship with other humans.

Humans have for better or worse shaped the planet to fit their needs and would this have been possible without the development of social structures driven by emotions and need.

This is speculation of course on your behalf because we don't know how we would have evolved without emotions.

Emotions can and do drive need, all though they are not the only imperative.

Emotional derive needs to be controlled by reason.

I'm sorry Lote, you are a bright guy but you are not omnicient and all knowing, and the fact is I don't agree with you and I am not changing my mind based on the arguments you present.

LOL :-) I am not that vain to claim omniscience :-)
Kath I am not trying to change your views. That would be arrogant of anyone to do this! I am just providing a counter argument to yours. It may not be correct or to your liking but an argument nevertheless.

They simply aren't compelling enough...because there is no definitive proof and there never will be. All there is, is your opinion and while I think you're cool, your opinion doesn't equal fact.

I have not stated any facts. This thread is just an speculation from the begining Kath :-)

Without speculation humans would still be living in caves... :-)

Some emotions keeps us in check don't they?

Which emotions would those be?

If I had to go without, I'd like to get rid of some certain memories that cause certain emotions.

I can sympathise with that!

I think getting rid of all negative emotions like jelousy and hatred would be a good thing...

[kathycf]

This is speculation of course on your behalf because we don't know how we would have evolved without emotions.

And that is why I used the word "would"...as that implies speculation. Terribly sorry I forgot the question mark, I figured it *would* have been easy to see that I was also speculating.

Emotional derive needs to be controlled by reason.

And that is why I said there were other imperatives.

It may not be correct or to your liking but an argument nevertheless......I have not stated any facts. This thread is just an speculation from the begining Kath :-)

You sometimes state things as if they are fact....You stated this earlier "Emotions not necessary for survival." That seems a bit definite.

Without speculation humans would still be living in caves... :-)

And I have never said otherwise...

I don't know that we would be better off without emotions. Some emotions keeps us in check don't they?

If I had to go without, I'd like to get rid of some certain memories that cause certain emotions.

Do you mean emotions like guilt or remorse?

It would be nice to get rid of some negative emotions, but how do we know they don't serve some purpose? People say guilt is a negative emotion, yet I would feel guilty if I did something bad...even if I knew I could get away with it...so the guilt serves a purpose? It prods my conscience....Certainly unhealthy guilt is not productive but what of "normal" guilt?

How do we know there isn't a similiar purpose to other negative emotions?

[Lote-Tree]

Terribly sorry I forgot the question mark, I figured it *would* have been easy to see that I was also speculating.

No probs. omnisicence has granted you pardon :-)

Just kiddin :-)

You sometimes state things as if they are fact....You stated this earlier "Emotions not necessary for survival." That seems a bit definite.

In the context of trees for example it is not :-)
In the context of humans we can only speculate ;-)

[Bii]

Yes. They do all these things. But most animals survive on instincts.

Emotions not necessary for survival.

These quotes are at odds, and I entirely disagree with the second point. Emotions are necessary for survival, particularly those nasty negative ones like fear, mistrust, suspicion. Without these emotions what would prevent us from stepping off cliffs? And I know you're going to make some comment about rationality, but show me a rational 2 year old? Even the best parents can't watch their kids 24/7 and rely on kids emotions - i.e. fear of getting told off, desire to please, to give them limits within which they are protected. Without emotion most people wouldn't make it past childhood.

Also, you said earlier on:

"Primal Emotions are instinctive. Others can be consciously evoked eg. compassion."

On which basis by getting rid of 'primal emotions', which you still define as emotion, we would have no instinct. So at least we need these 'primal emotions', and therefore couldn't exist without emotion.

So we're still back to the question of whether we'd be better off without emotion. I still feel that we wouldn't be. I'll accept sadness if I can have joy and, lets face it, most of the time we are neither one thing or the other, most of the time we are just being and this being is punctuated by periods of something else, happiness, sadness, anger, desire, you name it. It'd be no fun without it.