May / Irving Reading: 'A Prayer For Owen Meany'

[Virgil]

heheh yep me too.. but we have different kinds of Protestants over here.. I think in the U.S. you get some Puritan-style Protestants who are just as conservative and uptight as Catholics are often said to be... over here, we don't really have the Puritan kind of Protestants except in some pockets in the south west. So our Catholics are the German equivalent to your "Puritans" as far as sex is concerned (dancing, idleness and taking sick leave to go on holidays is a different matter)....
hehe, what I'm driving at is that it's a common cliché about Catholics that they don't know about contraception (in reality most of them know about it of course, but are against it).
so Owen's mother might be one of those Catholics who don't even know about contraception and the biology of reproduction whereas her body didn't catch on to the fact that it's supposed to either abstain or reproduce on purpose...

Hahahaha. This was a hilarious bit of dialogue between us. I guess i have nothing more to add.

[SleepyWitch]

Hahahaha. This was a hilarious bit of dialogue between us. I guess i have nothing more to add.

hehe, have you never heard of the standard rural-Catholic mating procedure? it goes like this:
1. two people date; one of them is engaged to another person, but never mind
2. they have sex; the woman pretends she's on the pill, but she's not
3. the woman gets pregnant
4. the man has to break up his engagement with the other girl and marry her
5. the child is born prematurely 6 months after the wedding, but it's plump and healthy
6. "A miracle, hallelujah" aren't we all glad the little bugger is so big and fat after only 6 months?

at least that's how my aunt did it...

well, this was slightly off-topic...
back on topic: do you think Irving intended to critize Catholicism as harshly as my original post would imply?

[Virgil]

hehe, have you never heard of the standard rural-Catholic mating procedure? it goes like this:
1. two people date; one of them is engaged to another person, but never mind
2. they have sex; the woman pretends she's on the pill, but she's not
3. the woman gets pregnant
4. the man has to break up his engagement with the other girl and marry her
5. the child is born prematurely 6 months after the wedding, but it's plump and healthy
6. "A miracle, hallelujah" aren't we all glad the little bugger is so big and fat after only 6 months?

at least that's how my aunt did it...

She got the guy she wanted, I guess. Did the marriage at least work out?

well, this was slightly off-topic...
back on topic: do you think Irving intended to critize Catholicism as harshly as my original post would imply?

I don't know what to make of Irving's harshness to Catholicism. Owen's rantings just don't seem to add up to a point. At least not one that I got. Why did he have to do that? I don't understand.

[Janine]

Owen didn't have any siblings, right? Maybe the parents didn't know how to do it? Maybe they both are a little short in the 'brain' category?
At anyrate - that does seem doubtful, as Virgil has pointed out citing animal behavior. I really have enjoyed your (Virgil and Sleepwitch) conversation on reproduction. Very entertaining! Thanks -

[Virgil]

Owen didn't have any siblings, right? Maybe the parents didn't know how to do it? Maybe they both are a little short in the 'brain' category?
At anyrate - that does seem doubtful, as Virgil has pointed out citing animal behavior. I really have enjoyed your (Virgil and Sleepwitch) conversation on reproduction. Very entertaining! Thanks -

Glad to add to any fun. I guess if any parents are now feel shy about talking about the birds and the bees to their children, they can send the little rascals to us and we'll teach them. Of course i don't actually have any children to prove I know what I'm talking about.

[Janine]

Virgil, Well, those last five posts or so I could not stop laughing. Thanks again for the entertainment! Well, I don't think we better venture into the field of teaching the 'birds and bees'. Do as I did with my kid; brought home some animal books from the library (I was using them for an art project); then found my young son seated in the middle of the living room floor intend on one; I wondered why he was so interested and later I discovered it was heavy on reproduction. I don't think after that, I had to do much explaining.

Yeah, maybe your the one who needs the education.

[SleepyWitch]

my mum used to be a hippie and she had those little wooden dolls (about 2 inches tall). one of them had a hole and the other had a piece of string with a little bit of wood attached to it.....
my bro was around 4 and a half y/o when she showed them to us... I don't think he got it at that stage...
....
arrrgh, this is about 5 miles off topic...

I'll definitely have to re-read the book when I've got more time. there are so many aspects I didn't catch or have forgotten....

[Janine]

Sleepywitch, yeah, we better stop - next thing you know we will get bumped to Live Chat or censored altogether. But for the record, I found your story quite humorous. I think I recall those dolls, I went to a hippie art college, but I always tell my friends, I was on the outskirts of being a real hippie. Guess I was a little bit square. Those were the days! In a way I related to things in OM, because of the time I grew up.

[Asa Adams]

yay reading. Who doesnt love it! Pray for my students! Their exam starts on the 10th of june!!! Love you all!

Asa

[Janine]

yay reading. Who doesnt love it! Pray for my students! Their exam starts on the 10th of june!!! Love you all!

Asa

Hi Asa, We will pray they all get A's.....as in Asa..... we have missed you greatly! Glad you are back.

[Schokokeks]

The sparkling prose?

Would you mind clarifying this ? Maybe with an example of a contemporary of Irving writing 'sparkling prose', in your opinion ?

Owen Meany? Oh, we all know such Christ figures.

Well, I don't know about you, but I did not. For me, rather than scrutinising the book for themes of depth already addressed by writers of centuries before (wasn't it Plato who said that everything has been said before ? ), Owen for me was, amongst other things, more of an allegory of how we tend to underestimate children in their capacity of constructing a world for themselves and their ideas on the grown-ups'. In fact, the part I liked most was the description of the two boys' childhood.

The sixties as loss of American innocence - how any times have you heard that?

Again, not that often . But maybe this is more interesting to me because I have not grown up and don't live in the United States, and my idea of these times results from reading history books about a foreign country only. For me, this literary treatment is a relatively new one.
Now that I think about it, I recall having read an interview with Irving where he holds the political issues in Owen Meany and World According to Garp (about feminism -> appealing, eh, Virgil ? ) as one of the reasons why these books of his were more successful outside the USA, where his readers were/are not that close in mind to these experiences.

[SleepyWitch]

very good points, Schoko...
i find it interesting to read about growing up in the 50s and 60s (in the U.S.), too...
what I also like about Irving is how he makes every-day small town life seem so interesting and often gives it a weird twist. his characters tend to be regular people like you and me only they are a bit more bizarre.
so his characters are neither unusual, as in people you don't normally get to know (kings, queens, dukes, aliens, seductresses, vampires...) nor are they members of the work-go home-eat-sleep-work-die variety.
i like the idea of finding interesting aspects in everyday life

[Janine]

very good points, Schoko...
i find it interesting to read about growing up in the 50s and 60s (in the U.S.), too...
what I also like about Irving is how he makes every-day small town life seem so interesting and often gives it a weird twist. his characters tend to be regular people like you and me only they are a bit more bizarre.
so his characters are neither unusual, as in people you don't normally get to know (kings, queens, dukes, aliens, seductresses, vampires...) nor are they members of the work-go home-eat-sleep-work-die variety.
i like the idea of finding interesting aspects in everyday life

SleepyWitch, Curious to know, since you and Schokokeks are not from the US, what impression you got from this book about Americans? Also about the political atmostphere, and other aspects of American life here in the US, where I do live. By the way, I was a teenager/college student during this era of the Vietnam war and experienced all the political strife, assinations, war protests, etc.
I liked your last paragraph and I feel the same way. I agree with both your posts basically in answer to Virgil's comments. Sorry....Virg...

[Virgil]

First Schoky I'm sorry I denigrated a novel I know you think a lot of. I knew my comments might upset you, but I felt I had to give my honest opinion.

Would you mind clarifying this ? Maybe with an example of a contemporary of Irving writing 'sparkling prose', in your opinion ?

American contemporaries? I'm not up on all the contemporaries but Toni Morrison is not bad. John Updike and Philip Roth and Annie Proulx and Joyce Carol Oates are pretty good. I have a special love for the work of Cormac MacCarthy. A great read is All The Pretty Horses. There are others with good reputations but I have not read them so I can't vouch for it.

Well, I don't know about you, but I did not. For me, rather than scrutinising the book for themes of depth already addressed by writers of centuries before (wasn't it Plato who said that everything has been said before ? ), Owen for me was, amongst other things, more of an allegory of how we tend to underestimate children in their capacity of constructing a world for themselves and their ideas on the grown-ups'. In fact, the part I liked most was the description of the two boys' childhood.

There was a certain charm in the first three chapters. I felt the mother was very well drawn out as a full character. The very young Owen was also well characterized.

Again, not that often . But maybe this is more interesting to me because I have not grown up and don't live in the United States, and my idea of these times results from reading history books about a foreign country only. For me, this literary treatment is a relatively new one.

That may be, but frankly a lot of the novel felt like a TV movie. Be aware that a work of art is an approximation of one view of experience. I have met people who would argue against the 1950's as ideal and golden and others that the sixties were a period of radical upheaval. Real life is complex. At this point, without adding complexity to these common notions is to dwell on cliches. If I have to hear one more time that America lost its innocence with the Kennedy assination I'm going to vomit like Hester. A novel can withstand a cliche or so, but when I look through this and one sees the simplified view of the 50's, the 60s, religion, soldiers, and "rednecks." I'm sure Germans feel how simple to portray all WWWII era germans as nazis. It's become a cliche and we all know the reality is complex. Irving has simplified so many things here in a similar fashion that frankly it doesn't have depth.

On top of that, he stretches credulity over and over that one gives up on it. I think Hemingway once said a writer can always get a reader to believe in one extraordinary thing in a novel but beyond that the reader begins to question the realism. Well lets look at this. A series of wierd events leads to owen, who has hardly ever hit a baseball before, hitting a ball that strikes the mother of his best friend at just the right spot to kill her. OK that's one. Then there is the weirdness of Owen's body and character. Ok, then there is the fact that he's a precocious genius. Then there is the fact that he's more skilled at cutting stone at the age of 18 than his father. Then he's able to carry a statue to his school and bolt it down all by himself. Then he can stuff a basketball while being tossed in the air in three seconds. Then he sees his death. Then we learn he's of a virgin birth. Then it all coordinates into the reality of his dream. I wonder what Hemingway would say.

On top of that there is the two dimensionality of just about all the characters. His cousins as children reminded me of the simpsons cartoons. Does anyone really throw up as often as Hester? Louis Merril is an allegory, doubt. And so on.

So, hard to believe events, cliches for themes, and two dimensional characters. I'm sorry, average is the best I could give it.

Now that I think about it, I recall having read an interview with Irving where he holds the political issues in Owen Meany and World According to Garp (about feminism -> appealing, eh, Virgil ? ) as one of the reasons why these books of his were more successful outside the USA, where his readers were/are not that close in mind to these experiences.

My complaints had nothing to do with the politics, even though Johhny's politics are I'm pretty sure Irving's politics. Perhaps that was part of Irving's mistake. All politics, whichever side, is a simplification to cliche. Perhaps Irving sees life as political cliche. Who knows.

[Schokokeks]

First Schoky I'm sorry I denigrated a novel I know you think a lot of. I knew my comments might upset you, but I felt I had to give my honest opinion.

Oh no, Virgil, you didn't. It's very gentlemanly of you to be so concerned, but I assure you there was no damage done . It would not earn a writer much credit if his/her books didn't elicit different views on them, and not much credit to their readers if they didn't offer theirs .

I'm sure Germans feel how simple to portray all WWWII era germans as nazis. It's become a cliche and we all know the reality is complex. Irving has simplified so many things here in a similar fashion that frankly it doesn't have depth.

Yes, I understand your argument. However, somehow these simplifications didn't bother me that much. While reading, I felt that the character of Owen is so extraordinary and so far beyond credibility that a sophisticated description of the complex and changing world around him would have been 'too much' in one book. It feels more balanced this way. For me, the politics, and to some extent also the other characters, were the portrait's background, and I didn't mind the colours to be less bright.

American contemporaries?

I was thinking maybe you might have read Paul Auster. I mention him here as my exemplary postmodernist (I'm not very fond of literary theory and the classification into "periods" and "currents", but I will use the label "postmodernism" here in order to clarify my understanding of Owen and Irving).

On top of that, he stretches credulity over and over that one gives up on it. I think Hemingway once said a writer can always get a reader to believe in one extraordinary thing in a novel but beyond that the reader begins to question the realism.

As far as I understand it (I've only been reading English for 6 years now, and I'm only 20, so I may err ), that is exactly what the postmodernist wants the reader to do, to question the realism - or rather, the irrealism. I brought up Paul Auster because he's a vehement advocate of the idea that there is no such thing as coincidence. I think Owen uses the same words somewhere in the book. Everything has a purpose, Owen's strange bodily appearance, his voice, his ability to handle the stone cutting machines, ... According to the postmodernists, we, by having discarded the idea of connectedness, are lulled to an extent that once we find ourselves confronted with an extraordinary story (reality's complexity also does include these), it hits us with full force, and we tend to dismiss it as unreal.
The way I presented it now may shed a somewhat mystical or esoterical light on postmodernism, and of course the theory is more complex and elaborated than my abstract here. If I got anything wrong, somebody benevolent please correct me.

Maybe you would have like The Cider House Rules better, as it is far-fetched only at -some- points, but I guess there's not much chance of you ever reading an Irving book again . But diversity of opinion makes for good discussions, and one cannot like unexceptionally everything .