The Power of Beauty

[Niamh]

Lote i think you'll find that Kathy is correct regarding Cinderella. The ugly sisters are really ment to be shown as 'ugly' on the inside which shaddows there outer 'beauty'. Its a case of looks can be decieving.

[Lote-Tree]

While I agree that some traits that we appreciate as "beauty" may be hardwired, to me it doesn't fully explain cultural differences in perceiving what is beautiful.

Even in the cultural differences you will find that it is Symmetry that is the important factor.

Thank you Mr Computer Programmer , sir.

Ah little praise Geeks - thank you Kath :-)
They make wondeful companions because they know exactly what then want and how to get it :-)

Who is "we"?

Human beings.

Sometimes I wonder if the sisters were really all that ugly. It seems to me that they could have been quite attractive, and still been jealous.

It is hard to be jealous of another person's kindness. It does not work does it?
Because kindess is something we have the power to cultivate - but we can't cultivate physcial beauty - we are born with it and either we have it or we don't.

Cinderella was supposed to posses not only "outer" beauty but inner as well. No matter how good some people think they are, there is always somebody better, right? That is why I think it is better to cultivate that which is unique in me, and not simply be about my appearance. Otherwise, life becomes one big insecure rat race, no?

We can't we all be beautiful - then we will never be insecure about this one aspect of our life - an aspect we can't change. We can change how kind or compassionate we are but not our physical beauty.

People get jealous over all sorts of things. I get jealous of my best friend because she has a child. It isn't something I am proud of, but there it is.

But this is not something like beauty is it? You could have a child or adopt one etc...but beauty is something you are born with.

[kathycf]

It is hard to be jealous of another person's kindness. It does not work does it?
Because kindess is something we have the power to cultivate - but we can't cultivate physcial beauty - we are born with it and either we have it or we don't.

There are other things besides kindness...no? Intelligence? Money? Popularity? People are never jealous of those things, just beauty? What about the drop dead gorgeous woman who loses her mate and is profoundly jealous as a result?

But this is not something like beauty is it? You could have a child or adopt one etc...but beauty is something you are born with.

Um, no I can't. Hence the jealousy. If it was something I knew I could do, why would I then be jealous?

If I am jealous that my friend Sandy Beach has a ruby ring, and I have $600 in my checking account that I have earmarked for frivolous expenditures, wouldn't I just go down to the jewelry store and buy a ruby ring?

*edit*
RE: symmetry and culture.
What about cultural practices of neck stretching? There are tribes in remote regions of Thailand and another in Africa who practice this tradition. It is thought to have originated for several different reasons, but one is to beautify the individual. To me, personally it is not attractive, because the neck is no longer in proportion to the rest of the body. I agree with you that symmetry in facial features may well be a universal way to measure attractiveness, but there are other factors too, I think.

[Lote-Tree]

There are other things besides kindness...no? Intelligence? Money? Popularity? People are never jealous of those things, just beauty? What about the drop dead gorgeous woman who loses her mate and is profoundly jealous as a result?

Intelligence, Money, Popularity - these things are within the realm of possiblity ie through study it is possible to improve intelligence, through hard work one can earn money and one can work at one's social skills to gain popularity...but Beauty you either born with it or you don't...

Um, no I can't. Hence the jealousy. If it was something I knew I could do, why would I then be jealous?

I don't understand? You are women - child bearing is within your capability and if not you can always adopt one?

If I am jealous that my friend Sandy Beach has a ruby ring, and I have $600 in my checking account that I have earmarked for frivolous expenditures, wouldn't I just go down to the jewelry store and buy a ruby ring?

If Ruby Ring is your thing - then that is within your possibility. It is realisiable...but can say that of Beauty?

What about cultural practices of neck stretching? There are tribes in remote regions of Thailand and another in Africa who practice this tradition. It is thought to have originated for several different reasons, but one is to beautify the individual. To me, personally it is not attractive, because the neck is no longer in proportion to the rest of the body. I agree with you that symmetry in facial features may well be a universal way to measure attractiveness, but there are other factors too, I think.

This is just a cultural Fetish as opposed to Beauty based on Symmetry?

[kathycf]

I think you are making the attainment of other goals a little too simple. They may be within the realm of possiblity, yes, but that doesn't mean that it will be possible for every individual to attain them. If such goals were so easily attained we would not have people living in poverty, we would not have people who live in fear or loneliness, we would not have people being ostracized, and we wouldn't have people starving because they can't get food to eat.

I have already stated that I cannot have children, nor adopt them. I am not prepared to go into the reasons why on a public message board. I am jealous of my friend because she has something I wanted my entire life...a child and loving family. I have been callled beautiful many times and it is something I could give two figs about. Beauty is poor consolation indeed.

This is what I mean about it helps me to cultivate unique or more substantial qualities in my life. Beauty is not an achievement to me, because as you say, it is something a person is born with. An achievement is doing something...helping people, writing, whatever.

Oh, I'm sorry Lote. I am feeling a bit cranky and don't mean to sound that way in my post.


*edit*
Sure beauty is an attainable goal. If somebody has the money, of course. If going down to a jewelry store is an attainable goal, then why isn't a trip or two to the plastic surgeon any less attainable? For that matter, skin and hair care products and cosmetics do wonders to improve appearance. Aren't those just as easily attained as a ruby ring?

[Lote-Tree]

I think you are making the attainment of other goals a little too simple. They may be within the realm of possiblity, yes, but that doesn't mean that it will be possible for every individual to attain them.

No of course not. But the possibility allows us to dream :-)

I have already stated that I cannot have children, nor adopt them. I am not prepared to go into the reasons why on a public message board. I am jealous of my friend because she has something I wanted my entire life...a child and loving family. I have been callled beautiful many times and it is something I could give two figs about. Beauty is poor consolation indeed.

My apologies Kath. You don't have to tell me anything. I was speaking in terms of biology of you being a women etc... Again my apologies.

Oh, I'm sorry Lote. I am feeling a bit cranky and don't mean to sound that way in my post.

No probs Kath. It is my fault. I missed the context in earlier post :-(

Regards,
Lote.

[kathycf]

Ah, no problem, Lote and thanks.


I am curious. There are books related to this topic, some I have read and some not. Have you ever done any reading about the power of beauty, or did some other factor spur you to start this topic?

For example, several years ago I read The Beauty Myth by Naomi Wolfe and I discussed that I am interested in reading Nancy Etcoff's book Survival of the Prettiest here. I can't say that I agree with everything in such books, but they do make for interesting reading. But then, that is purely personal on my part as I am one of those "interpersonal" thinkers, so I am interested in people and psychology.

Another article that may be of interest. The Evolution of Beauty.

[Lote-Tree]

I am curious. There are books related to this topic, some I have read and some not. Have you ever done any reading about the power of beauty, or did some other factor spur you to start this topic?

Why Kath is the discussion not interesting or amusing enough? :-)

I have always been fascinated with Beauty - the Power of Beauty that makes us stand like rabbits caught in the car's head lamp on the road or like moths to the flame. Beauty intoxicates us. It mesmerise us. It unsettles us. John Keats wrote "Beauty is Truth and Truth Beauty". Beauty inspires us, it inspires love in us...

For example, several years ago I read The Beauty Myth by Naomi Wolfe...

Yes, I have read that book a while ago. But I think she made it into something "political" but fails understand humanity have always been fascinated with Beauty and is nothing to do with what "political" idea of what Beauty is. Beauty is about the Symmetry of the Form - the rest is just details.

[Moira]

Well, when you focus on something you just won't give up.

I can agree that symmetry plays a role but i truly believe that 'other details' (preferences) are more important.
There is another man on this thread and he just said that he does't find Angelina so attractive as you do ..... and we cannot say one of you is wrong, can we?

[Elly_blue]

I'm not really sure if perfect symmetry is the key to ultimate beauty. Sometimes a tiny flaw or just something unique can make a person far more beautiful, compared to someone who is flawless and perfect.

[Lote-Tree]

Sometimes a tiny flaw or just something unique can make a person far more beautiful, compared to someone who is flawless and perfect.

If that was the case then you would expect people to undergone surgery to create these tiny flaws. But that is never the case. It is usually to remove imperfections that people are prepared to undergo the pain of surgery.

[kilted exile]

I am not sure I agree with the symmetery thing - if you see only a photograph in profile would it be impossible to find the person beautiful?

[Lote-Tree]

Well, when you focus on something you just won't give up.

Only in the interest of furthering the debate :-)

[kathycf]

Why Kath is the discussion not interesting or amusing enough? :-)

har har....

Beauty inspires us, it inspires love in us...

Other qualities inspire love as well. You could equally argue that beauty inspires lust, as it does in many people. I would be extremely suspicious of anyone professing to "love" anybody else based on physical appearance alone.

Yes, I have read that book a while ago. But I think she made it into something "political" but fails understand humanity have always been fascinated with Beauty and is nothing to do with what "political" idea of what Beauty is. Beauty is about the Symmetry of the Form - the rest is just details.

I believe the political part arises from the way society seems to value appearances over other qualities. Often the images used in advertising and in movies have been altered with photographic enhancements, flattering lighting and digitized improvements, thus presenting a "standard" that is near impossible to live up to. You posted pictures of Angelina Jolie. Do you suppose those pictures to be spontaneous...meaning do you think she stumbled out of bed looking like that, or did she undergo a makeup session, lighting check, airbrushing and so on. I worked as a makeup artist and I can tell you that makeup can make a huge difference in someone's appearance, never mind the touching up and enhancing of pictures that can be achieved.

I'm not really sure if perfect symmetry is the key to ultimate beauty. Sometimes a tiny flaw or just something unique can make a person far more beautiful, compared to someone who is flawless and perfect.

I agree with this. I think there is a difference between someone who is from an aesthetic viewpoint "beautiful" and someone who is from a personal viewpoint "appealing".

I can admire a beautiful appearance, as I admire a work of art. To find someone attractive to me in a more personal sense requires a bit more than a "flawless" symmetry of facial feature.

Now for example Robert Redford is an older film star in the US. He was always described as an extremely handsome man, and he is. I can admire his symmetrical facial features, but on a personal level his appearance simply bores me. I like offbeat and interesting over "perfect" any day of the week.



Many people might describe John Malkovich as ugly...he certainly isn't classically handsome, but I find him far more interesting to look at than Redford's bland handsomeness.


*edit*

I can agree that symmetry plays a role but i truly believe that 'other details' (preferences) are more important.
There is another man on this thread and he just said that he does't find Angelina so attractive as you do ..... and we cannot say one of you is wrong, can we?

This is where personal preference comes in. Kilted said he found Neve Campbell more appealing than Jolie, and of course nobody can say who is more appealing. Everyone is entitled to their own personal opinions and preferences. In my opinion, the two are both pretty, but I also think Campbell is the more interesting looking one.

[Niamh]

If that was the case then you would expect people to undergone surgery to create these tiny flaws. But that is never the case. It is usually to remove imperfections that people are prepared to undergo the pain of surgery.

A few centries ago having a beauty spot(mole) on ones face was regarded as beautiful. People use to draw them on there faces, or glue them on so they too could be regarded as beautiful. Even men did it. So people would do things just to have that slight flaw if it became regarded as 'fashionably beautiful'.