The ORIGINAL VERSION of WAR and PEACE

[olichka]

Has anyone gotten an original version of W. and P. yet ?
I bought it last week and am reading it right now. It`s actually an interesting read, and gives additional info about the characters, as well as insight into their motivations.

Andrey does survive, but he and Natasha do not end up together --- he gives her up to secure the happiness of his sister Marya who loves Nikolay. However, he realizes that Natasha never truly loved him --- so, is it really a sacrifce then ?

It would be interesting to see what you guys think of this version.

[B-Mental]

Is that the original re-write of War & Peace? I've never heard of such a thing, thinking I already read War & Peace twice now. What were those copies then? I heard there would be some release of the classic in which changes were made. Maybe you could post some information on your ORIGINAL book (publisher, copyright, anything else that might be useful to confirm your books originality).

[olichka]

Is that the original re-write of War & Peace? I've never heard of such a thing, thinking I already read War & Peace twice now. What were those copies then? I heard there would be some release of the classic in which changes were made. Maybe you could post some information on your ORIGINAL book (publisher, copyright, anything else that might be useful to confirm your books originality).

The copies that you read were most likely the FINAL and TRADITIONAL version of W. and P. --- that is, W. and P. as we know it.

Recently ( in March or April ), the original version came out --- that is, an earlier version based on an early draft, parts of which were published before being re-written, changed and polished by Tolstoy into the W. and P. as we`ve known it for the last 140 years.

The version that I have is called the same --- " War and Peace ", with the subtitle " The original version ", published by Harper Perennial, 2007.

The original Russian text is by Zakharov Publishers, 2000.

English translation of the text is by Andrew Bromfield.

It IS an actual book, I`m not making anything up. I bought the book at " Chapters ", if it helps.

For more information, go to www.harperperennial.co.uk and then type in the title in the window.

[Idril]

I don't know that you can really call it an 'original' version when more descriptive word would be 'rejected', wouldn't it? If Tolstoy changed it before it the final publishing, that means he wasn't happy with it and thought better of a few things. It would be interesting to see what his original vision was for the characters but I think publishing it as 'the original version' is a little misleading and just a way of making money off a famous title.

[stankovb]

Has anyone gotten an original version of W. and P. yet ?
I bought it last week and am reading it right now. It`s actually an interesting read, and gives additional info about the characters, as well as insight into their motivations.

Andrey does survive, but he and Natasha do not end up together --- he gives her up to secure the happiness of his sister Marya who loves Nikolay. However, he realizes that Natasha never truly loved him --- so, is it really a sacrifce then ?

It would be interesting to see what you guys think of this version.

Olichka, I am new into these discussions, I have never heard of an "original" version of W. & P. and I can and want to say only what is coming from my emotions. And they are definitely and strongly inclined towards the undoubtedly true love between Natasha Rostova and Andrey Bolkonski. It is not that I have anything against dear and brave guy Pierre; however I feel that he just came as a kind of "consolation prize" to Natasha, once her beloved Andrey was not into our material sphere. To me, the love between Natasha and Andrey was sort of extra-terrestrial divine-type of love and I could never understand why would Andrey (even if he stayed alive) deprive himself of such a happiness and fulfilment, even though he might have been inclined towards the happiness of an otherwise very unhappy person - his sister Maria. Besides, Sonia new that "Natasha has always been loving price Andrey ONLY and she was loving him PERSISTENTLY". I am terribly sorry that this great love could not materialize during their lives at Earth. And I am not sure that Andrey even kissed Natasha "properly" in the whole novel. No, in my opinion it was not possible to sacrifice true love with true woman, such as Natasha Rostova, even on behalf of happiness of the very dear person (Maria). Don't you think so?

[stankovb]

Has anyone gotten an original version of W. and P. yet ?
I bought it last week and am reading it right now. It`s actually an interesting read, and gives additional info about the characters, as well as insight into their motivations.

Andrey does survive, but he and Natasha do not end up together --- he gives her up to secure the happiness of his sister Marya who loves Nikolay. However, he realizes that Natasha never truly loved him --- so, is it really a sacrifce then ?

It would be interesting to see what you guys think of this version.

Olichka, I am new into these discussions, I have never heard of an "original" version of W. & P. and I can and want to say only what is coming from my emotions. And they are definitely and strongly inclined towards the undoubtedly true love between Natasha Rostova and Andrey Bolkonski. It is not that I have anything against dear and brave guy Pierre; however I feel that he just came as a kind of "consolation prize" to Natasha, once her beloved Andrey was not into our material sphere. To me, the love between Natasha and Andrey was sort of extra-terrestrial divine-type of love and I could never understand why would Andrey (even if he stayed alive) deprive himself of such a happiness and fulfilment, even though he might have been inclined towards the happiness of an otherwise very unhappy person - his sister Maria. Besides, Sonia new that "Natasha has always been loving price Andrey ONLY and she was loving him PERSISTENTLY". I am terribly sorry that this great love could not materialize during their lives at Earth. And I am not sure that Andrey even kissed Natasha "properly" in the whole novel. No, in my opinion it was not possible to sacrifice true love with true woman, such as Natasha Rostova, even on behalf of happiness of the very dear person (Maria). Don't you think so?

[olichka]

Olichka, I am new into these discussions, I have never heard of an "original" version of W. & P. and I can and want to say only what is coming from my emotions. And they are definitely and strongly inclined towards the undoubtedly true love between Natasha Rostova and Andrey Bolkonski. It is not that I have anything against dear and brave guy Pierre; however I feel that he just came as a kind of "consolation prize" to Natasha, once her beloved Andrey was not into our material sphere. To me, the love between Natasha and Andrey was sort of extra-terrestrial divine-type of love and I could never understand why would Andrey (even if he stayed alive) deprive himself of such a happiness and fulfilment, even though he might have been inclined towards the happiness of an otherwise very unhappy person - his sister Maria. Besides, Sonia new that "Natasha has always been loving price Andrey ONLY and she was loving him PERSISTENTLY". I am terribly sorry that this great love could not materialize during their lives at Earth. And I am not sure that Andrey even kissed Natasha "properly" in the whole novel. No, in my opinion it was not possible to sacrifice true love with true woman, such as Natasha Rostova, even on behalf of happiness of the very dear person (Maria). Don't you think so?

Stankovb, I agree with you in many ways and I particularly felt that way when I was a lot younger. I also feel that love between Andrey and Natasha was something sublime and special, and that Pierre was just someone appropriate to marry --- financially well off, a friend of the family and someone who saw Natasha through difficult phases of her life ( Kuragin ) and was thus a good friend of hers who understood her well. Frankly, although Pierre and Natasha do share some traits ( such as simplicity, naivete and openness to the world ), I still don't see them as a couple --- I strongly believe that there has to be a physical attraction, and I just can't see how slim, graceful Natasha could be attracted to Pierre.

Love with Andrey was indeed something special; however, I'm not sure if it could survive the marriage. What would they talk about ? Wouldn't he get bored with family life the way he did the first time with his first wife ? How would he react to Natasha's transformation into a frumpy housewife ? How would he be as a father ? Although, mind you, I wished most ardently when I was 16 that they would marry and cried bitterly when reading about his death.

I think that both choices are unrealistic and somewhat " forced " for Natasha --- in Pierre's case, I guess, after the war there were not many men left and you had to marry someone, right ? And Pierre was a good catch considering the circumstances and his closeness to the Rostovs, and Natasha was comfortable with him.

However, all that is in the final version. In the " original " version, Natasha's love for Bolkonsky is not the serious thing that it is in the final version, although apparently he does love her more than anything in the world. It's this realization that she never truly loved him that encourages him to give her up for Marya's sake. Prior to encouraging Marya in Nikolay's direction, he thinks these thoughts " Not my happiness, but other people's happiness " . This new attitude of his is supposed to reflect his moral transformation. And, off course, although it would have been totally unrealistic to give up TRUE love, in the case where one partner is not as committed as the other, it would still be possible. And now I think that it would be a selfless act because a person is still giving up something dear to him.

What do you think ?

[stankovb]

Olichka, first of all thanks very much for your compliment to me; so I gues I have a very young soul and I could feel like I am a 16-17 years old boy. Unfortunately, I am much older and probably older than you. But still, I believe only in true love, like the one between Andrey and Natasha. Or perhaps I may be wrong: maybe this sort of love was coming only from the Anrey's side?

Indeed, after re-reading this part of the novel, I noted some "new" things: Natasha was anxious/worried in expectation of Andrey's inevitable proposal; she became suprisingly calm 2-3 weeks after Andrey's departure to Switzerland/Italy; she was even jealous to Andrey when he was writing his letters from these countries. In the same time, Pierre was both joyful and sad when Andrey shared with him that he was in love with Natasha, that he would soon be proposing her and that he was fully happy for the first time in his life. Was Pierre enviable to Andrey because of his happiness? Why was Natasha so unsteady and capricious in her feelings? Probably because she was barely 17-18 when she was engaged with Andrey.

Taking all of this into consideration, yes, it can really seem that Andrey could have come to the conclusion to selflessly yield the right of marriage to his unhappy sister Mary, had he really stayed alive. But, this would be even more sad end of the story than that in the final version. Maybe this was the reason why Tolstoy decided to "kill" prince Andrey; because it really seems that even his physical death is better than his mental death while still "living" on the Earth.

I agree that Natasha did not have any better choice but Pierre, especially after that bloody damn war. And she was still very young (20 years old) and deserved to live and to give life to others. Besides, Pierre really liked and even loved her very much, although latently, and also Natasha was not at all calm to him. However, I am still not happy about this.

Perhaps I am searching for the same impossible perfect virtues and feelings as prince Andrey had been searching for. Maybe I am too much similar to Andrey, so that I take all of this too much personally. Indeed, some characters (Andrey and Natasha, above all) from the novel will always live in me, like they were real historical characters. The only deficiency of the Andrey's character is his apparent lack of love to his son Nikolenka.

Please, feel free to answer, since it has been really pleasant talking to you.

[olichka]

Stankovb, I share the same thoughts as you about Andrey and Natasha. I too am a lot like Andrey in that I idealize things and search for the same vitues as him. I also like Natasha a lot. Because of that I wished when I was much younger that they get together.

However, after many years have passed and after I re-read the novel several times, I realized that, although they're both excellent creatures, they're not really suited to each other.

Andrey is an intellectual, well-read, pre-occupied with sophisticated ideas, eager to transform society. Natasha doesn't have a very well-developed intellect, despite her other charms. So, although Andrey would have appreciated her poetical, emotionally rich nature, I think he would have grown bored with her pretty quickly --- and he was not a down-to-earth person like Pierre who was happy to discuss mundane, domestic matters. Also, as a family man, he would have been somewhat reserved and undemonstrative, pre-occupied with himself. It's not that he doesn't love Nikolushka, but I think that his constant disappointments prevent him from fully engaging and interacting with his son. So, although he would very likely be very much interested in his children's education, he would not be emotionally close to them. I think that that would cause a rift in his relationship with Natasha.

After reading your comments about the quality of Natasha's love for Andrey, I, too, started doubting whether it was true love from her side. I think her infatuation with Kuragin and her quick switch to Pierre, so soon after Andrey's death prove it. It's as if she was not truly committed to him. Maybe it was just infatuation, since she was only 17-18 when Andrey proposed.

Perhaps Andrey did realize this ( even in the final version ) which is why he lost his will to live. It does seem strange that, although he was getting better physically and overcoming successfully every serious stage of his illness, that he suddenly took turn for the worse and died. The turn for the worse came after he had that nightmare in which he " died ". After waking up, he came to the conclusion that " death is an awakening " --- I take it, he concluded that dying = awakening from the " nightmare " of life in which everything is a disappointment and illusions, true love included. Perhaps he decided that a life without Natasha's TRUE love isn't worth living.

Or, perhaps, he realized that family life would be a disappointment, since he's already experienced so much disappointment in his life, and he just didn't want to live this disappointing life. I think that Natasha's betrayal of him caused him to lose his last ideal.

However, it's really difficult do decide what Tolstoy exactly wants to say because he contradicts himself so often, as well as gives so much information, that you don't know exactly what the characters' true motivations are. I think that readers speculate about the characters' motivations in the same way that people speculate about others in real life --- no-one knows for sure what the other is thinking !!! Right ?!!

[stankovb]

Olichka, I agree with you that Tolstoy often gives so much information that readers might think of his characters as of live people (this is obviously my illusion) and of their lives as of real lives. But then, since we don’t know what exactly to think, how can we, readers, explicitly decide what would have occurred between some of the characters, Andrey and Natasha, for example? We can only speculate, as you said, but we cannot prove anything.
True, Natasha was a charming and not very-well intellectually developed young woman. But, did she really need this to be the kind of “fame fatale” she actually was? My answer is “no”. True women don’t need intellectual power to persuade intellectual and superior men to like them and to fall in love with them. Prince Andrey was convinced and he became a “believer” (after he had danced with her) like that old pop-rock song says. And somehow I am sure that Natasha and he would have had an intensive and interesting marriage, although maybe not a usual and quiet one. But, that does not prove that they would not have been happy and still passionate in their eventual marriage.
I think that Andrey’s “decision” to die was simply a result of worsening physical conditions of his mortal wound and of the associate fever. I cannot imagine why he would suddenly “decide” that Natasha did not love him proportionally and equally to his love to her, or that he “had enough” of her betrayals and therefore “decided” to “awake” from his own life. We ordinary people are not in a position to decide too many things in our lives; especially not the serious issues of life and death. I am sure we all know Who is in charge of these questions.
Therefore, all our considerations regarding success and nature of eventual Andrey’s and Natasha’s marriage are only our speculations and analyses, games of our minds. Like Tolstoy says and similarly like in the war, we cannot predict many factors and enemy’s ideas and plans. The same is with love and emotions, which are so different from mind, intellect and logic. Andrey died because the bloody stupid war was going on – and that’s the life. After that, Natasha decided to love and marry her other sympathy – Pierre – and that’s understandable, because of the same bloody war.
So, at the end I can quote hippies: “Make love, not war!”
And guess what is my wife’s name? Natasha, of course. And I am now in the process of modeling her after her namesake from the novel (she has actually received her name after Natasha Rostova). One of my two kids has name Nikola (Nikolushka). We are of Slavic origin (I think you are also), but not exactly Russians.
So, what do you think?

[olichka]

Actually, Andrey's decline started after that dream he had, namely, his fever took a bad, exhausting turn after that.

Anyways, as you agreed, we can only speculate as to what actually caused his death and whether he actually willed it. That's why literary critics and so many interpretations of literary works exist !

Perhaps you're right, they could have had an interesting marriage. I can see Natasha fully devoting herself to Andrey and his career. But passionate ? As a matter of fact, Andrey didn't strike me as the passionate type --- maybe that's why Natasha became so infatuated with Anatole.

What do you think would have happened if Andrey got involved in the Decembrist activites and got exiled to Siberia ? ( Since he and Pierre shared the same ideas, and Pierre is a leader of one of the circles in the Epilogue. ) What would their life have been like ?

It's interesting that your wife's and your son's names are Natasha and Nikola. I guess in your country they're really interested in Tolstoy. Must be Slavic blood !

[stankovb]

Actually, Andrey's decline started after that dream he had, namely, his fever took a bad, exhausting turn after that.

Anyways, as you agreed, we can only speculate as to what actually caused his death and whether he actually willed it. That's why literary critics and so many interpretations of literary works exist !

Perhaps you're right, they could have had an interesting marriage. I can see Natasha fully devoting herself to Andrey and his career. But passionate ? As a matter of fact, Andrey didn't strike me as the passionate type --- maybe that's why Natasha became so infatuated with Anatole.

What do you think would have happened if Andrey got involved in the Decembrist activites and got exiled to Siberia ? ( Since he and Pierre shared the same ideas, and Pierre is a leader of one of the circles in the Epilogue. ) What would their life have been like ?

It's interesting that your wife's and your son's names are Natasha and Nikola. I guess in your country they're really interested in Tolstoy. Must be Slavic blood !

Olichka, I agree that Natasha was really an archetype of true mother- being a devoted mother and wife to her chosen husband. Strangely, she was very passionate and witty in her young years. Where did all this passion go? I think that Pierre was also not a prototype of a passionate man and even to the lesser extent than Andrey (finally we will end up with Anatole being the only really “passionate” lover?).

However, I kind of sense that Andrey was “latently passionate”; he only needed that trigger to “unleash” his passion – Natasha. Sadly, he discovered passionate love mostly while he was awaiting his physical end. But, he was also “crazy in love” with Natasha and therefore passionate to her – although he maybe did not show it physically proportional to his mental passion. Tolstoy said he was “not really behaving like a fiance”, meaning he was unbelievably shy and extremely delicate to Natasha. My feeling is that their love would have taken some kind of “passionate” course in the future. I only don’t know for how long would this last (perhaps until they had their children?). We all know that real life is so much different from dating, love affairs and ideal relationships.

As for the Pierre’s revolutionary ideas (he was also a fan of the French Revolution), I am not sure that Andrey would have actively participated in the Decembrist movement. Both of them (Andrey and Pierre) were noblemen, but somehow Andrey was more “aristocratic” than Pierre, who was really a true revolutionist (in his heart). Pierre became a member of Russian aristocracy only after the death of his father, old and very rich count Besuhoff, who unexpectedly left almost all of his wealth to Pierre. He was always a “child of fortune”, a lucky guy.

I don’t say that Andrey would not have captured some or all of the Decembrist ideas, but I cannot imagine him, the only son of an old-style Russian aristocrat, Prince Nikolay Bolkonski, being a “revolutionist” against the “bad-behaving” Russian Emperor or some of His majesty’s closest government managers. True, Andrey was really disappointed in all of that, but he would have had much more important job to do – raising his family, trying to educate his and Natasha’s children. Besides, Andrey, as well as Nikolay Rostov, Dolohov, Denisov and even Anatol Kuragin (to some small degree), was highly patriotic soldier of the Russian Empire / Emperor, while Pierre has never been a soldier, even though he was highly patriotic, sometimes a utopian one (he wanted to kill Napoleon – nothing less!).

That’s what I feel. And the ball is in your court again.

[olichka]

You made good points. It's true that sometimes shy people are latently passionate and just need the right trigger to " activate " their passionate natures. Perhaps Natasha would have been that trigger to Andrey by revitalizing him with her liveliness and affectionate nature. It's tragic that that part of Andrey's personality was not realized.

I always wondered why Andrey was so shy with Natasha. As you said, " he did not behave like a fiancee to her ", " he only kissed her hand " and said a formal " You ", rather than " thou " to her. During his proposal, he approached her with downcast eyes and was struck by the " seriousness of the passionate expression on her face ". Natasha herself was struck by his timidity towards her.

Was it just shyness and delicacy ( in view of Natasha's youth ? ), or was he formal and restrained ? Or did his behaviour indicate a somewhat passionless nature ?

It's interesting that during her infatuation with Anatole ( a truly passionate and totally uninhibited animal who, in contrast to Andrey, oggled her shamelessly with his protruding eyes ), Natasha thought of him as a strong and bold man. Could this have indicated that she was dissatisfied and unfulfilled with Andrey's reserve towards her and yearned for a more expressive and sensuous relationship ?

That's why I was doubtful about this aspect of their relationship. Perhaps Natasha was more compatible in this respect with Anatole.

As to Pierre, Tolstoy mentions several times his visits to " women ", perhaps of doubtful virtue and he was, after all, married to that lustful and voluptuous Helene. Tolstoy does mention his coming out of their bedroom with a revelatory expression on his face. So, it's safe to assume that Pierre was quite a " horny " guy, it's just that his lack of attractiveness and debonairness makes his sensuousness somewhat unappealing. And it's rather awkward to imagine him with Natasha.

Andrey is never described as being particularly or passionately interested in women. When he leaves his wife ( whom he doesn't love ) to serve in the army, he is never mentioned taking part in the officers' amusements or conversations about women. After his wife's death, he goes through a long period of mourning and depression during which he shows no interest in anyone.

It's only after his first meeting with Natasha that he starts thinking about the fair sex, the female beauty and love and staring at his handsome face in the mirror. When he finally arrives in St. Petersburg, although Tolstoy does mention that he is happily accepted in female circles there who look upon him as a very desirable bachelor, he still shows no interest in anyone. It's only when he meets Natasha again at that ball, that he finally falls in love again and develops interest in a relationship with her and marriage.

From all these details, it's evident that Andrey is not a strongly passionate man, although perhaps latently he may be ( perhaps he inhibits his drive, considering it sinful and distasteful --- after all, during his " coming to life " phase, he is described as having thoughts and desires which are as " secret as a crime " ) and perhaps with the right person he could have been.

His love for Natasha is of an artistic, aesthetic and delicate nature. He falls in love with her at a gorgeous ball while admiring her graceful dancing. Later he is described as being moved to tears while listening to her singing. The way he describes his emotions to Pierre, it's evident that they're of a poetical and courtly nature. And perhaps, as you've mentioned, later they could have developed into a more passionate kind, although tempered by good taste and a sense of propriety.

[olichka]

Actually, a lot of Decembrists were former soldiers, in particular heroes of the War of 1812 --- namely, Prince Sergei Volkonsky, Prince Troubetzkoy and others.

A lot of the Decembrists were Russian patriots who were interested in improving conditions in their country. Patriotism does not necessarily indicate devotion to the Tsar. As we know, Bolkonsky became disenchanted with the Tsar and refused to serve at the court.

[stankovb]

Actually, a lot of Decembrists were former soldiers, in particular heroes of the War of 1812 --- namely, Prince Sergei Volkonsky, Prince Troubetzkoy and others.

A lot of the Decembrists were Russian patriots who were interested in improving conditions in their country. Patriotism does not necessarily indicate devotion to the Tsar. As we know, Bolkonsky became disenchanted with the Tsar and refused to serve at the court.

I think you must be a man to fully understand Andrey: I am sure he WAS passionate, at least inside his self; he was only waiting for the right person (Natasha) and for the right moment (battle of Borodino?! Joking!). So, his main and ordinary mistake was waiting too long with the Natasha’s type of woman. But frankly: a man can do the same mistake with any type of woman. And I also know it from my own experience. You simply cannot allow too long hesitation/waiting period with women. I think any man can agree with me. For sure, Anatol was not waiting even for one millisecond… and we call him “the most passionate lover” of the Tolstoy’s novel!

For example, what do you think of young Bazarov, from the Turgenev’s novel “Fathers and Children”? Was he a cold-blood rational scientist, interested mainly in nothing (a nihilist), except maybe in science and its purpose to the world? Suddenly, our “nihilist” turned into a passionate man, openly declaring love (in Anatol’s style!) to that fatal woman, pretty widow Odincova (“black widow”). Where did all his nihilism go at that time? Was he then a rational scientist or a passionate man? Genial Russian novelist Dostoyevski once commented on Turgenev’s novels/work and said that “he has got a full of passion Bazarov”. Was this genius wrong in his estimate?

On the other hand, I cannot picture Pierre as a “horny” and “passionate” guy. He was passionate just one time – when he saw beautiful Helene from the very proximity, allowing her charm to take his mind, almost similarly (but not to the same extent) as Andrey was driven out of his mind when he was dancing with charming Natasha at that famous ball in Petrograd. I am even not sure that Pierre was sleeping in the same room with his wife “on paper”, except maybe in the very beginning of their “marriage”. And from Pierre’s occasional visits to “women” I cannot conclude too much about his passion. He was there, trying to enjoy his life and trying to have some good time with his friends (was Anatol one of them?). Pierre was much more mental/intellectual/spiritual than passionate. But even his awkwardness was sympathetic to Natasha. She was often looking at him with sympathy, smile and a “slight trace of ridicule”. Where is the passion here?

I thank you very much for outlining some historical data, with which I was not too much familiar. I guess the Decembrist movement was righteous, being led by patriotic soldiers, prince Volkonsky being one of them. In fact, I think that in his masterpiece novel Tolstoy originally planned to describe the aristocratic family “Volkonsky”, but he changed their family name to “Bolkonsky” to avoid any similarities or even identities with the real family Volkonsky. I am also aware of the fact that Andrey was not in great love with the Russian Tsar and was therefore likely to become a Decembrist. However, I personally think that it’s a shame for Russians that so many “revolutions” (being justified or not) took place in their history from 1825 to 1917. I know that the Russian Empire was full of hidden weaknesses and was flickering, but to allow bolshevism and their supporters to dethrone (1917) and later savagely kill the last Russian Tsar – Nikolay Romanov – and his entire family – it is a huge national shame! There is not good excuse for this even though we today know that Germans infiltrated Lenin and his supporters to Russian empire via Finland and even though I know that true organizers of this “bolshevic’s revolution” were free-masons, the same order which once supported our dear and benevolent revolutionist Pierre.