D.H. Lawrence's Short Stories Thread

[Janine]

Janine, I love D.H.L, Though I only did study him loosely through My University career. I am focusing on this thread so that I may learn something new and interesting. Bio-"Student for life"

You can pick Any L story for me, Guys. Im along for this glorious eye opening ride,

Ok good, Asa, I will pick next. Virgil emailed me today about picking the next story when we finish this one. We should wrap "Horse-Dealer's Daughter" up real soon. We are starting to beat it to death, I think; but we're getting to the end, which is the most important part and brings up some good points and questions. There are always good questions concerning L's stories....some without solid or final answers. I think that is what I like about his writing most...makes it more intriguing. I have loved and been interested in D.H.L since I read "Women in Love" about 30 yrs ago....giving away my seasoned age. It spurred me onto reading many, many other works by L, but not till recently did I again tackle "Sons and Lovers" and thought it was wonderful, especially since my new knowledge told me how autobiographical it is.
This independent study of Lawrence has been a lifetime passion for me. I go back to his work periodically, but recently these have been my most concentrated efforts, reading 3 full biographies and planning a new one soon, "The Early Years" - Cambridge Addition. I am highly interested in L's early life and his formative years. Also, I am finding the letters so revealing and wonderfully personal. I recently bought a book of the selected ones, also Cambridge. I found the travel books on Italy likewise revealing of the man and his personality/ideas. You really get a keen sense from those letter and they are so personal you feel you come to know Lawrence, almost intimately like a friend.
Asa, When you said Bio-Student - you mean biography? I am too, if that is what you mean. I love to delve into the aspects of these authors and see just what motivated their literature. I am glad you are learning something on this thread - it makes it even more worthwhile knowing others have been reading it. I think the fact that Virgil and I debate a lot and don't always agree also suggests many interesting and good points. I am sure you will come up with good ideas and questions too, as we all read the same story.
Glad you studied him in your University days....I am sure things will surface from that time and your past studies.

I will look through my books and see which story I think would be of interest for the next discussion. Do you have a set of the "Complete Short Stories"? I have three volumes - had to purchase two of them online recently. If not I can choose one that is on this site under "England, My England". Let me know before I choose.

[Asa Adams]

Hey, Janine!

I am a self professed biography student, yes. But I meant also, my own biography. "Student for life" . But I like the way you put it. To delve into them, and see what motivated them to write such great words.

Unfortunately I have not come across any collection of his that I really liked, publishing house that is, not stories So it would wonderful if we could choose something from England, my England, for convienence sake. Though, I could check out the Library down the road. Though, chances are slim,
Thanks again, Janine.

[Janine]

Hey, Janine!

I am a self professed biography student, yes. But I meant also, my own biography. "Student for life" . But I like the way you put it. To delve into them, and see what motivated them to write such great words.

Unfortunately I have not come across any collection of his that I really liked, publishing house that is, not stories So it would wonderful if we could choose something from England, my England, for convienence sake. Though, I could check out the Library down the road. Though, chances are slim,
Thanks again, Janine.

Asa, never change! I hope I am the same -"Student for life". It is a good goal. I certainly maintain and nurture the enthusiasm for learning. Most people I know probably think me sort of a freak, but I keep soaking up biographies and novels, whenever I can and I love of course, talking endlessly about them with others. Well, that is the best part.

Thanks, I just believe one can not separate the author from his life and personal history, especially in Lawrence's case, there are so many interesting parallels, don't you think?

I had to buy two used paperbacks recently off Amazon. These were two volumes I was missing to complete my short stories of L. Prior to this I realised I only had one of the three books. There are three separate volumes of them, and then the volume "England, My England", which I just happen to have from years back; being only paperbacks they are easy to cart around with me.

But I did think of picking from the 10 available on here until we run out of those. Perhaps if I mention it to one of the moderators, they could list some more of the stories from the 3 book set, as well. "England, My England" repeats some of the ones available in the set, but it's a nice collection all the same.

Perhaps I will pick the first and title story "England, My England". I have read it but would like to re-read it; it would make for interesting conversation. Let me decide for sure this weekend.

[Virgil]

Well let's finish this one before we start another. Here's the passage where Ferguson goes into the pond and pulls Mabel out:

He slowly ventured into the pond. The bottom was deep, soft clay, he sank in, and the water clasped dead cold round his legs. As he stirred he could smell the cold, rotten clay that fouled up into the water. It was objectionable in his lungs. Still, repelled and yet not heeding, he moved deeper into the pond. The cold water rose over his thighs, over his loins, upon his abdomen. The lower part of his body was all sunk in the hideous cold element. And the bottom was so deeply soft and uncertain, he was afraid of pitching with his mouth underneath. He could not swim, and was afraid.

He crouched a little, spreading his hands under the water and moving them round, trying to feel for her. The dead cold pond swayed upon his chest. He moved again, a little deeper, and again, with his hands underneath, he felt all around under the water. And he touched her clothing. But it evaded his fingers. He made a desperate effort to grasp it.

And so doing he lost his balance and went under, horribly, suffocating in the foul earthy water, struggling madly for a few moments. At last, after what seemed an eternity, he got his footing, rose again into the air and looked around. He gasped, and knew he was in the world. Then he looked at the water. She had risen near him. He grasped her clothing, and drawing her nearer, turned to take his way to land again.

He went very slowly, carefully, absorbed in the slow progress. He rose higher, climbing out of the pond. The water was now only about his legs; he was thankful, full of relief to be out of the clutches of the pond. He lifted her and staggered on to the bank, out of the horror of wet, grey clay.

So now perhaps we should talk this clay water. It starts the passage and it ends this passage. Here's what I think it alludes to:

4 ¶ These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
5 and every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.
6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

(Genesis, chpt 2)
and

17 ¶ And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lifted up above the earth;
18 And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters.
19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.
20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.
21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:
22 all in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.

(Genesis chpt 7)

The clay alludes to the rudimentary substance of flesh and life in general. Mabel and Ferguson have mixed themselves into primordial soup. When they step out of the pond, they are the new man and woman. Ferguson gasps and struggles to breath and then even breathes life back into Mabel.

[Janine]

Virgil, interesting correlations. I think you are going pretty far in this with the bible and Genesis. I don't personally see that deeply into the pool/pond significance unless to say a rebirth - but Genesis is actually a first birth of all things on the earth and the earth. It might be better to cite verses from the bible concerning baptism and being reborn.

But why the mud? To me the mud symbolises the melting down of earth and water into one element that would lead to death, then to be reborn again. Perhaps the earth elements with the water elements are like the phoenix being burned or reduced by the flames to be reborn. Also, the mortal fear it would pose to Fergusson with his vulnerable lungs - apparently a stand-in for Lawrence and his bad lungs - would be a real believable fear. Fergusson has a bad cold, mentioned several times in the story, so being dunked beneath this smelly dark dank water was an absolute life threatening experience for him. Also, he mentions that he can not swim, so it is a double fear with drowning. It is strange, Mabel has no fear because she is resigned to die, yet Fergusson seems to hold all the fear for her and himself. They are quite different in their approach to and feelings about the the water. Why do you suppose this pond was mucky and muddy and smelled badly? Could this indicate polution form mines? Or the dark unknown world of death? One can not see beneath the water. Fergusson hunts around with his hands desperately to try and get a grip on Mabel.

I still maintain the idea that in "Women in Love" Lawrence uses similar muddy water as a symbol of a bridge between life and death, or the passageway to death. The water also is muddy and murky and dark, and so Gerald cannot reach his sister and her husband trying to save them. It is like "looking through a glass darkly". He nearly drowns himself trying to bring them out of the dark water and save them. Also, later in the book Gerald goes to Gudrun in that same night all muddied and he makes love to her coldly and unconsciously out of pure need. She remarks that he is muddy and he causes her face to be smeared with mud, so he muddies her, as well. All these incidents of mud seem significant to me.


Prior to these passages I find some that are interesting but when we get nearer the end I will bring them up - they concern Fergusson and his profession and how he felt about it and his life ministering to the country folk.

[Virgil]

Virgil, interesting correlations. I think you are going pretty far in this with the bible and Genesis. I don't personally see that deeply into the pool/pond significance unless to say a rebirth - but Genesis is actually a first birth of all things on the earth and the earth. It might be better to cite verses from the bible concerning baptism and being reborn.

But why the mud? To me the mud symbolises the melting down of earth and water into one element that would lead to death, then to be reborn again. Perhaps the earth elements with the water elements are like the phoenix being burned or reduced by the flames to be reborn.

Well, I don't disagree with that. But isn't clay what man is made of? Biblically I mean. I tried to find it in Genesis but I couldn't find the actual word, "clay." Whether it's Genesis or not, it certainly is Biblical. And yes, the pond is a baptisim.

[Janine]

Well, I don't disagree with that. But isn't clay what man is made of? Biblically I mean. I tried to find it in Genesis but I couldn't find the actual word, "clay." Whether it's Genesis or not, it certainly is Biblical. And yes, the pond is a baptisim.

Well, he is made of clay if he is a sculpture! Think you might be taking the bible verse (whatever it is) a little too literal. It means God formed man like a sculpter would have, from clay - at least I believe the statement to be something like that. It is an analogy or what is the literature device term (?) -you know better than I. No, man is made of flesh and blood, literally - not clay. There are parts in the Bible about man being fashioned as clay is in the hands of the creator. It is only a comparison I think.

Also, wondered why you did not address the other parts of my post like the muddy, murky water and what I said in relation to L's novel "WIL" and the scenes I pointed out . Also, the idea of the water and earth combining, and the thought of it being the darkness they must enter to come out in the light and be reborn.

[Virgil]

Well, he is made of clay if he is a sculpture! .

Very funny!!

Think you might be taking the bible verse (whatever it is) a little too literal. It means God formed man like a sculpter would have, from clay - at least I believe the statement to be something like that. It is an analogy or what is the literature device term (?) -you know better than I. No, man is made of flesh and blood, literally - not clay. There are parts in the Bible about man being fashioned as clay is in the hands of the creator. It is only a comparison I think.

Also, wondered why you did not address the other parts of my post like the muddy, murky water and what I said in relation to L's novel "WIL" and the scenes I pointed out . Also, the idea of the water and earth combining, and the thought of it being the darkness they must enter to come out in the light and be reborn

OK, but Genesis is probably L's most alluded to biblical section and he is constant talking about the new Adam. OK, whatever. Got to go right now, though. No time to write more.

[Janine]

[QUOTE=Virgil;360671] Very funny!!

Haha - right? well my mother told me there is some passage that says God took the dust of the earth and made man. I put her on the assignment to look it up. I must remind her later. She will find it and any reference to mud and man's creation.

OK, but Genesis is probably L's most alluded to biblical section and he is constant talking about the new Adam. OK, whatever. Got to go right now, though. No time to write more.

I did not know that. It is interesting to me. In which books does he allude mostly to Genesis? The later writings? What does he mean by the new Adam? I would like to hear more about these ideas.

[Virgil]

[QUOTE=Janine;361232]

Very funny!!

Haha - right? well my mother told me there is some passage that says God took the dust of the earth and made man. I put her on the assignment to look it up. I must remind her later. She will find it and any reference to mud and man's creation.



I did not know that. It is interesting to me. In which books does he allude mostly to Genesis? The later writings? What does he mean by the new Adam? I would like to hear more about these ideas.

The Rainbow is almost a rewriting of Genesis. Perhaps that's an overstatement, but it's not far off. The symbol "rainbow" is right out of Genesis.

8 ¶ And God spake unto Noah, and to his sons with him, saying,
9 And I, behold, I establish my covenant with you, and with your seed after you;
10 and with every living creature that is with you, of the fowl, of the cattle, and of every beast of the earth with you; from all that go out of the ark, to every beast of the earth.
11 And I will establish my covenant with you; neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth.
12 And God said, This is the token of the covenant which I make between me and you, and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations:
13 I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth.
14 And it shall come to pass, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the bow shall be seen in the cloud:
15 and I will remember my covenant, which is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh.
16 And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth.
17 And God said unto Noah, This is the token of the covenant, which I have established between me and all flesh that is upon the earth.

(Genesis 9)

"bow" is rainbow. Some day we should read The Rainbow together. It's my favorite of the L novels.

"New Adam" is a term L uses a number of times. I have to go and look it up. I'm sorry. I think he has a short story called that.

Glad you put you're mom to work. Maybe you can get her to join lit net and have her start posting.

[Janine]

[QUOTE=Virgil;361380]

The Rainbow is almost a rewriting of Genesis. Perhaps that's an overstatement, but it's not far off. The symbol "rainbow" is right out of Genesis.


(Genesis 9)

"bow" is rainbow. Some day we should read The Rainbow together. It's my favorite of the L novels.

"New Adam" is a term L uses a number of times. I have to go and look it up. I'm sorry. I think he has a short story called that.

Glad you put you're mom to work. Maybe you can get her to join lit net and have her start posting.

Virgil, that is interesting. I think Lawrence had a lot of bible references in all his works. I don't know if the Rainbow is a re-writing of Genesis. Interesting idea though. It has been ages since I read "The Rainbow". Now I thought it too long a book, I seemed to struggle through it; maybe I was too young to read it. I preferred "Women in Love". That has always been my favorite of the novels. Yes, I figured bow is rainbow. I am pretty smart, you know

Put mom on Lit Net? - I don't think so! She is computer inept and there is no computer downstairs. If she did get more adept at the computer she would love it and get addicted like me. But she does not have one, nor does she want one.

[Virgil]

Put mom on Lit Net? - I don't think so! She is computer inept and there is no computer downstairs. If she did get more adept at the computer she would love it and get addicted like me. But she does not have one, nor does she want one.

Your mom sounds wonderful. Well, if she can't join us in person, then in spirit.

Let's get to mabel's transfiguration. Here's the passage:

For some moments she sat and gazed at him awfully, her lips parted.

'Do you love me then?' she asked.

He only stood and stared at her, fascinated. His soul seemed to melt.

She shuffled forward on her knees, and put her arms round him, round his legs, as he stood there, pressing her breasts against his knees and thighs, clutching him with strange, convulsive certainty, pressing his thighs against her, drawing him to her face, her throat, as she looked up at him with flaring, humble eyes, of transfiguration, triumphant in first possession.

'You love me,' she murmured, in strange transport, yearning and triumphant and confident. 'You love me. I know you love me, I know.'

And she was passionately kissing his knees, through the wet clothing, passionately and indiscriminately kissing his knees, his legs, as if unaware of every thing.

I love that passage. And we see that the experience has altered her permanently. Could one imagine Mabel doing that before the drowning? The drowning has taken her to death and back and her conscousness has been altered.

[Janine]

Your mom sounds wonderful. Well, if she can't join us in person, then in spirit.

Let's get to mabel's transfiguration. Here's the passage:


I love that passage. And we see that the experience has altered her permanently. Could one imagine Mabel doing that before the drowning? The drowning has taken her to death and back and her conscousness has been altered.

Yeah, mom's pretty cool; you would like her. She always get along well with young men. She was flattered you wished her a happy birthday. She is a bit of a bible buff, so that is why I put her on assignment. She can be here in spirit then

Yes, let us proceed....ah Mabel....now I can envision her 'transfiguration' or at least that L intended it that way. One thing that definitely bothers me about this story and I might as well get it out there now, is that in many ways I see these two people as lonely hearts, desperate for human contact/love. Personally I usually don't view that as an ideal receipe for a good relationship or a lasting one. They both seem so needy or at least Mabel is. The dunking in the lake and attempted suicide does seem to awaken here to life again. I can therefore see her rebirth as L would have intended it to be. The whole incident shocks her into being less inert -a word we have used often in the Frome discussion. Ah, 'inert' is a good word for aspects in this book as well. Even Fergussen is in a state of 'inertia', being resigned to his professional life. There is no great passion or excitement in either of their lives. Hopefully this transfiguration will work out for them, but I feel they have a long way to go to break through their own 'old' selves to achieve it. When we get to the end of the story, I think you will see the tone again changes and doubt sets in - making us wonder if this is a happy or potentially happy ending. Personally I do not think it is.
In the paragraphs you have quoted, I think Mabel acts very unlike herself in this shock or transfiguration. For a woman so seemingly shy and resigned, I have trouble buying this scene. This might just be personal, but it seems too sudden to be so aggressive in her actions - what do you think? Also, she knew that Fergussen was a doctor and so to save her life had to remove her clothes. Yet she acts totally shocked at the gesture or action. I don't understand fully why she thinks this gives her the right now to literally come onto him in this fashion. She seems very clingy to me, and very needy. Also she puzzles me in her persistence in asking him or employing him to love her or say he loves her.

'You love me,' she murmured, in strange transport, yearning and triumphant and confident. 'You love me. I know you love me, I know.'

When I first read this story I felt the woman intimidated, scared F to some degree, or amazed him. As with other Lawrence stories, there is a theme of the woman being dominate towards the man (not always a good thing or outcome). This dominance was not an ideal to L. It seems in these passages in the house Mabel has the upper hand and is coercing F to love her or say he does. I feel F is almost under her spell and afraid to answer or act any other way that would oppose M's actions of sudden passion. If he does oppose her, he risks her trying again to end her life, and now he feels a responsibility towards keeping her alive. Doesn't he sacrifice something of himself in this process of being protective towards Mabel?

[Virgil]

There's a lot to respond to here Janine. No time this evening. I'll have to do it tomorrow.

[Janine]

There's a lot to respond to here Janine. No time this evening. I'll have to do it tomorrow.

Yes, I know - take your time.