April / Wharton Reading: 'Ethan Frome'

[Virgil]

Second paragraph - I think that most of Wharton's work would be considered sympathetic to the female. If you look at the novel "Age of Innocense" you certainly feel badly for the female involved in the complicated plots. In this case, society has trapped the female in conventions and situations that lead to her downfall or unhappiness. In "The House of Mirth" it is the somewhat the same. But Edith Wharton herself said that "Ethan Frome" was a departure from those novels. Perhaps in this EF she relates, not so much to the female characters, as to the male protaganist, Ethan. So I do not know if it is a true feminist issue here. Hope others give their opinions on this idea.

This is my first Wharton reading. So she is more feminist in her other works? That is interesting. Here I find so much understanding for the male social condition, which contrary to what femnist would love to have you think was no perfect existence. Hard labor, financial and family repsonsibility, and much isolation was the more common existence for most men. I'll answer my own question; while I don't see this as anti-feminist in the sesne that Wharton is arguing against women's problems, but I do see it as undermining the notion that men had all the power.

[SleepyWitch]

I am not sure if Zeena's aim was to 'set them up' when she left them alone for the night. I agree with you that she was aware that Ethan and Mattie had feelings for each other but her trip was mainly to get the support of her family and get rid of Mattie by hiring a new maid, in my opinion. Even before she found out about the broken dish, she had made up her mind to send Mattie away and hired the girl. I am not even sure if Ethan means to elope with Mattie at all. He strikes me more of a Walter Mitty-like character; he, probably owing to his monotonous and frustrating life with Zeena, simply 'daydreams' about having a life with Mattie as an 'outlet'. If Zeena had not actively sought a way to send Mattie away, I wonder if he would ever seriously consider the elopment. He would have been happy living with those two women as they were had Zeena not changed the things.

yep you're right. i think he only becomes aware of how much he likes Mattie when Zeena is about to send her away.
i think that's a very realistic portrayal. lots of men don't seem to be aware of their own feelings till it's too late in one way or another

This is my first Wharton reading. So she is more feminist in her other works? That is interesting. Here I find so much understanding for the male social condition, which contrary to what femnist would love to have you think was no perfect existence. Hard labor, financial and family repsonsibility, and much isolation was the more common existence for most men. I'll answer my own question; while I don't see this as anti-feminist in the sesne that Wharton is arguing against women's problems, but I do see it as undermining the notion that men had all the power.

hehe, ranting about feminism again, are we?
i think the branch of feminism i prefer would perfectly agree with you on most of these points

[Virgil]

i think that's a very realistic portrayal. lots of men don't seem to be aware of their own feelings till it's too late in one way or another

Are you saying that it only happens to men? Women don't mistaken their feelings? Boy do I have life experiences to prove that wrong.

[SleepyWitch]

hehe, you're probably right. i'm a mean prejudiced feminist witch

[Janine]

No. As with Ethan, I was talking about appearances. That, after all, is one of the reasons why, instead of studying and observing a hypochondriac in a clinic, I am reading a fictional work, where somebody presents her in a certain way and encourages me to set her in relation to the other characters. In my eyes, the story would be far less interesting if Ethan was presented as bossy as his wife, or Zeena presented as inert as Ethan.

ok, Schokokeks, I agree with this. I see your point. So emotionally she might not be strong but she projects her will strongly. Yes, now I quite agree and also that the story would be totally dull if Ethan were presented the same as Zeena - bossy. No, the three characters have distinctive differences in personalities, even though, ironically, at the end it is the two women are in alignment with each other and Ethan is now totally outside their realm. Truly isolated is what he becomes.

Very interesting how opinions in the poll above are distributed almost equally between the last three choices. Not a black-and-white piece of literature at all .

I agree - absolutely not a black-and-white piece of literature. Most "good" literature is not b/w. One has to contemplate it and think on it and debate it. This is precisely why EF is such a great novel and one that has lasted the test of time.

Virgil, feminism again? I agree somewhat with Sleepwitch.
I don't know, does it have that much bearing on the story, or analysis? You can read about Wharton's views, etc. in the biography on this site or on Wikipedia. Then let us know what if it mentions this idea. Don't quote me on the other novels. Basically I have not read them - only know the plots from film adaptations. Women and men are socially abused in stories all the time. I can give many an example of men being just as abused or neglected/ shunned.

[Virgil]

Well, I'm not going to push it, but this story does seem to me to be the inverse of a typical 19th century feminist work.

[Janine]

Well, I'm not going to push it, but this story does seem to me to be the inverse of a typical 19th century feminist work.

Virgil - ok, that is good; now what do you have to back that statement up with? Can you explain better or site specifically why you feel that way? What, in your opinion, is a typical 19th century feminist work?

[Virgil]

IPerhaps this is the place to ask this. This novel was written by a female novelist, and so one needs to ask, does this present feminist themes? Woman writers of this period present female characters also trapped in their social condition as Ethan. I'm thinking of Kate Chopin, Charlotte Bronte, George Eliot, Charlotte Perkins Gilman. But Wharton has almost the inverse, a male trapped by social convention, unexpressible passion, and domestic drudgery. So is Wharton being anti-feminist? If we have sympathy for those female characters of the other women writers, why shouldn't we have sympathy for Ethan?

Virgil - ok, that is good; now what do you have to back that statement up with? Can you explain better or site specifically why you feel that way? What, in your opinion, is a typical 19th century feminist work?

Janine, I thought I was fairly clear in my original post on this. What I mean is that it is typically a female character who is trapped by her social circumstances and is unable to follow her heart. Or if she does follow her heart, it's at a great expense in reputation or stature. Here it is Ethan, a male character, who is put into this conundrum.

[Scheherazade]

Who knows why a woman would leave a young girl alone with her husband all night - almost like she invited tragedy or a downfall.

I think Zeena knew what she wanted and went for it; she wanted Mattie out of their house and life. In the grand scheme of things, Mattie and Ethan being alone one night does not matter much really.

I agree that it was within Ethan to break out of his condition, but you know I feel for him. To leave one's wife was not something to do lightly. He was finacially strapped and he would have condemned his wife to destitution. He was torn between duty and passion. He was trapped. He was living in a code of provincial farm life, an old world construct.

This is all true; however, in my opinion, what makes Ethan a hard-to-sympathise-with-character is not only the fact that he is not leaving his wife for Mattie. The fact that it does not occur to him is very off-putting. It seems like Ethan does not realise (or does not want to?) the consequences of the feelings he entertains towards Mattie. What is more, he, very slyly, plans how he can stay alone with Mattie over night and lies to Zeena not to give her a lift. If I remember correctly, during the night they were alone at home, it was Mattie who actually stops things from 'getting out of hand'; Ethan, in my opinion, would have carried on without a consideration for Zeena or Mattie.

I was thinking that Ethan's inability to commit to anything is even apparent in his so-called suicide attempt with Mattie. He seems to change his mind in the last minute causing a life time of suffering for them all (I don't wish anyone death but he should have either gone ahead with the plan or said 'no' from the start, in my opinion).

No, the three characters have distinctive differences in personalities, even though, ironically, at the end it is the two women are in alignment with each other and Ethan is now totally outside their realm. Truly isolated is what he becomes.

Ethan is an isolated character, isn't he? He doesn't seem to have friends and does not mix with the town folks either.

lots of men don't seem to be aware of their own feelings till it's too late in one way or another

Amen to that, sista!

[Janine]

Janine, I thought I was fairly clear in my original post on this. What I mean is that it is typically a female character who is trapped by her social circumstances and is unable to follow her heart. Or if she does follow her heart, it's at a great expense in reputation or stature. Here it is Ethan, a male character, who is put into this conundrum.

Virgil, ok, I think I understand. Sorry, I guess I am just tired. Yes, true the man cannot follow his heart this time in this story. In Hardy some of his male characters were the same such as Giles in "Woodlanders". Actually he and Grace were hemmed in to the system. Giles, like Ethan, was resigned to his low station and shunned position in life. Also, it might be that I don't totally understand all the ramifications of feminist literature.

[Nightshade]

haha got the book yesterday will start it in tea break at work

[papayahed]

Ok, I finally read through all the posts.

But Wharton has almost the inverse, a male trapped by social convention, unexpressible passion, and domestic drudgery. So is Wharton being anti-feminist? If we have sympathy for those female characters of the other women writers, why shouldn't we have sympathy for Ethan?

I don't see this as anti-feminist at all, even though the 2 main women weren't the best examples - one a hypochondriac wrapped up in her own problems and the other a young lady without any any other options. These two characters were written like real people, Wharton could have easily made them into characatures.

I don't have sympathy for Ethan. He was not stuck by the constraints of society in the least. As a man in that time period he could have gone anywhere and gotten a job doing anything with out any questions asked. Women did not have that same luxury, they were expected to be wives.


As for the Narrator - Ethan connection, I think Ethan sees what he could have been. Ethan could have been the guy living at the hotel, reading those books, catching the train to work.


I idea of isolation throughout the book. If I remember correctly I don't think Ethan was ever really part of the town. He was always so stand off-ish. For example, when he picked up Mattie from that dance, why look through the window? Why not go in? Everybody knew he picked her up after each dance. - Ohh, yet again an instance of Ethan's inertia. Perhaps that's the life Ethan wants - dances, parties, being part of the town, (that's the life the narrator has) but he can't bring himself to go in.

[bouquin]

Yes, her use of "double" is the same.

http://www.studyguide.org/lit_terms.htm
We just don't get enough of the narrator to see if there is a part of him that is like Ethan. At least I don't think so.


Well, the very first sentence of the novel is, "I had the story, bit by bit, from various people, and, as generally happens in such cases, each time it was a different story." Do you think Wharton is saying that she does not get part of the story from Ethan? If not, how could she know his internal feelings?

My interpretation is that Wharton's intention was to make her readers understand that the narrator does not gather the whole story from Ethan himself - especially in the beginning - but rather he gleans unsatisfactory bits and pieces of it from the various inhabitants of the town. In the frame chapter the narrator says of one of his contacts, "Though Harmon Gow developed the tale as far as his mental and moral reach permitted there were perceptible gaps between his facts, and I had the sense that the deeper meaning of the story was in the gaps."
And as for his landlady, Mrs Hale: "...but on the subject of Ethan Frome I found her unexpectedly reticent ... I merely felt in her an insurmountable reluctance to speak of him or his affairs..."

[Virgil]

I agree with you bouquin. The only problem I have is that the narrator gets well into Ethan's emotions and only Ethan could have told him. It does strike one as contrived.

[papayahed]

I agree with you bouquin. The only problem I have is that the narrator gets well into Ethan's emotions and only Ethan could have told him. It does strike one as contrived.

What I find intriguing and I keep wondering about is what happened that night when the narrator stayed at the Frome farm????? Did Ethan tell him the story? I can't really believe that is the case, Ethan seems too Tacturn. Did he get tidbits from Zeena and/or Mattie? That to means seems more likely. I get the feeling that both Zeena and Mattie would take this oppotunity to complain/talk to a new set of ears.