The Importance of "Propriety" in "pride and Prejudice" >> Please HELP

[JBI]

You missed one thing. The whole Mr. Collins bit where Mrs. Bennet wants Lizzie to marry him to keep the family estate in the family (Collins is the heir to their estates), this of course is thwarted by Mr. Bennet who acts oddly and favors his daughter over his cousin (nephew?). And of course there is Charlotte (I think that's her name) who marries Mr. Collins (after he is rejected by Lizzie) because she is financially insecure, homely, and has nothing really to offer. She looks for economic stability in a lame, sad excuse for a husband.

[adiga_5ijabz]

i really appreciate all ur efforts guyzz
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[sciencefan]

I searched for every instance of the word propriety in the online text of Pride and Prejudice on this web site.
There were 8 returns for that word, and 3 others for the word impropriety.

Pride and Prejudice - Chapter 6
beg for a partner.''mr. darcy with grave propriety requested to be allowed the honour of he
Pride and Prejudice - Chapter 10
it without offering one argument in favour of its propriety.''``to yield readily -- easily -
Pride and Prejudice - Chapter 32
necessity rather than of choice -- a sacrifice to propriety, not a pleasure to himself. he seldom ap
Pride and Prejudice - Chapter 33
not see what right mr. darcy had to decide on the propriety of his friend's inclination, or why, upo
Pride and Prejudice - Chapter 35
, was nothing in comparison of that total want of propriety so frequently, so almost uniformly, betr
Pride and Prejudice - Chapter 36
resh in her memory. she was now struck with the impropriety of such communications to a stranger, an
Pride and Prejudice - Chapter 37
rley, and lady anne, could not have appeared with propriety in a different manner. -- i am excessive
Pride and Prejudice - Chapter 42
elizabeth, however, had never been blind to the impropriety of her father's behaviour as a husband.
Pride and Prejudice - Chapter 43
re; she remembered its warmth, and softened its impropriety of expression.when all of the ho
Pride and Prejudice - Chapter 53
she received them with tolerable ease, and with a propriety of behaviour equally free from any sympt
Pride and Prejudice - Chapter 56
miss de bourgh? are you lost to every feeling of propriety and delicacy? have you not heard me say


In addition, I searched for the word proper, which would also gather results for the word improper, and properly (and property). There were 18 returns.

Pride and Prejudice - Chapter 6
r, sir.''``do you not think it would be a proper compliment to the place?''``it is a
Pride and Prejudice - Chapter 14
s in the closets up stairs.``that is all very proper and civil i am sure,'' said mrs. bennet, ``
Pride and Prejudice - Chapter 17
tation, and, if he did, whether he would think it proper to join in the evening's amusement; and she
Pride and Prejudice - Chapter 18
ver change their opinion, to be secure of judging properly at first.''``may i ask to what th
Pride and Prejudice - Chapter 19
marry. a clergyman like you must marry. -- chuse properly, chuse a gentlewoman for my sake; and for
Pride and Prejudice - Chapter 22
at st. james's. the whole family, in short, were properly overjoyed on the occasion. the younger gi
Pride and Prejudice - Chapter 24
ontempt, on that easiness of temper, that want of proper resolution which now made him the slave of
Pride and Prejudice - Chapter 28
ll do for him very well. she will make him a very proper wife.''mr. collins and charlotte we
Pride and Prejudice - Chapter 29
troduction should be her's, it was performed in a proper manner, without any of those apologies and
Pride and Prejudice - Chapter 31
r>the invitation was accepted of course, and at a proper hour they joined the party in lady catherin
Pride and Prejudice - Chapter 37
men travelling post by themselves. it is highly improper. you must contrive to send somebody. i have
Pride and Prejudice - Chapter 42
gain applied to, could readily answer, and with a proper air of indifference, that she had not reall
Pride and Prejudice - Chapter 49
ely give directions to haggerston for preparing a proper settlement. there will not be the smallest
Pride and Prejudice - Chapter 50
n to be her husband might then have rested in its proper place.he was seriously concerned that a
Pride and Prejudice - Chapter 52
judge your father to be a person whom he could so properly consult as your uncle, and therefore read
Pride and Prejudice - Chapter 58
y believe it. you thought me then devoid of every proper feeling, i am sure you did. the turn of you
Pride and Prejudice - Chapter 59
ars in her eyes, ``i love him. indeed he has no improper pride. he is perfectly amiable. you do not
Pride and Prejudice - Chapter 61
the influence of lydia's example, she became, by proper attention and management, less irritable,


I also searched for this partial word – respectab because being respectable and having social respectability what was what life was all about back then. I got 17 results.

Pride and Prejudice - Chapter 7
he business, and a brother settled in london in a respectable line of trade.the village of l
Pride and Prejudice - Chapter 16
nt to enter the ----shire. i knew it to be a most respectable, agreeable corps, and my friend denny
Pride and Prejudice - Chapter 17
f this kind, given by a young man of character to respectable people, can have any evil tendency; an
Pride and Prejudice - Chapter 18
ell as his sister's, mr. wickham is by no means a respectable young man. i am afraid he has been ver
Pride and Prejudice - Chapter 19
t kind of elegance which consists in tormenting a respectable man. i would rather be paid the compli
Pride and Prejudice - Chapter 24
this is not fair. you wish to think all the world respectable, and are hurt if i speak ill of any bo
Pride and Prejudice - Chapter 28
imself. to work in his garden was one of his most respectable pleasures; and elizabeth admired the c
Pride and Prejudice - Chapter 33
ies which mr. darcy himself need not disdain, and respectability which he will probably never reach.
Pride and Prejudice - Chapter 35
oubted veracity. mr. wickham is the son of a very respectable man, who had for many years the manage
Pride and Prejudice - Chapter 41
, which i am now complaining. our importance, our respectability in the world, must be affected by t
Pride and Prejudice - Chapter 42
h rightly used, might at least have preserved the respectability of his daughters, even if incapable
Pride and Prejudice - Chapter 43
ing where she was.the housekeeper came; a respectable-looking, elderly woman, much less fine
Pride and Prejudice - Chapter 44
s four years old, and whose own manners indicated respectability, was not to be hastily rejected. ne
Pride and Prejudice - Chapter 48
yself sincerely sympathise with you, and all your respectable family, in your present distress, whic
Pride and Prejudice - Chapter 56
m the same noble line; and, on the father's, from respectable, honourable, and ancient -- though unt
Pride and Prejudice - Chapter 59
lizzy. i know that you could be neither happy nor respectable, unless you truly esteemed your husban
Pride and Prejudice - Chapter 4
themselves, and meanly of others. they were of a respectable family in the north of england; a circ


Back then, having a very high social standing (and the money to go with it) was sort of today’s equivalent of fame.
This is why propriety was so important. If your family’s behavior was considered improper, then your social status suffered for it, and your family – and therefore you - became the object of contempt and ridicule.

• Jane almost missed out on being married to Mr. Bingley because of family impropriety.

• Lady Catherine was furious at the thought of Mr. Darcy marrying Elizabeth because of the impropriety of her family. Lady C. said Elizabeth would “pollute” Pemberley, and no one in the family would even speak her name!

• Darcy sacrificed a whole year’s income for the sake of propriety - in bribing Wickham to marry Lydia.

• Mr. Collins, in the book, is a great example of the judgmentalism that they lived under back then. You see it well in his letter in chapter 48, concerning Lydia’s “fallen” state. “The death of your daughter would have been a blessing in comparison of this.” Mr. Collins obviously lacks tact or feeling when he says this. He is very much like Star Trek’s Mr. Spock in this way, but what he says is a true reflection of the way their society looked at social propriety and impropriety. It would be better if she were dead, than to have the family suffer the shame of her behavior.

You may get some other ideas as you browse through the search results.
I recommend you do the searches yourself.
Click on the link and read the context.
I’m sure it will help.

[adiga_5ijabz]

Thanxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx alot
i really don't know how 2 thank uuuuu

i'm Happy hehehehe!!

[sciencefan]

Thanxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx alot
i really don't know how 2 thank uuuuu

i'm Happy hehehehe!!

You are quite welcome.
I'm glad you're happy.
Good luck to you on your assignment.

[Newcomer]

It is curious that Propriety is more apparent in the dramatizations of Pride and Prejudice than in prose. As if the visual medium can throw it into sharper focus than the diffused prose. An interesting question since it has several aspects. The obvious one is the descriptions of the Bennet family's interaction with their contemporaries throughout the novel. Specifically the minor and major transgressions in the game of marriage. The view point is Georgian/Victorian values of a minor landed gentry shadowed by the approach of an industrial society disrupting the agricultural remains. Of the five Bennet sisters, the eldest, Jane and Elizabeth exemplify the comfortable old values while the younger, Mary, Kitty and Lydia, the disruptive, uncertain and contradictory values of the coming industrial age.
The second facet of Propriety in Jane Austen's writing may be likened to the Weak force in physics. It is imperceptible in close quarters and gets stronger by separation, that is deviation from the norm. The norm being the inherited values of the particular classand especially of Austen herself. It is the very fine web that encompasses Austen's milieu and differentiates her from the Bronte sisters or Hardy. While it excludes what we consider important aspects of human conduct, in Austen's hands it produces a very fine grained structure of prose. Passion and sex are excluded It's not that Austen is ignorant of sex but that she considers the subject more appropriate for the barnyard than for the drawing room.
Matrimony may be the theme of the novel, if so it is surprising how restrained Austen is about the actual ceremony. Mrs Bennet's comments about Lydia's marriage are numerous but her character and speech are examples of Austen's irony and is remarked by Elizabeth as “it was certain that her manner would be equally ill adapted to do credit to here sense;”. Jane's and Elizabeth's marriage ceremony is not even alluded by Austen. It's as if Austen's sense of propriety made such a description vulgar. Perhaps Austen valued it too much, considered it sacred, in the old fashioned sense of the word. Sacred as in sacrifice, where the offering is made willingly of something very precious. In this case a gift of self, of the core of self, to the other. Do not mistake this for virginity, as Austen was too practical, her values too complex, to reduce this to the modern concept.
Austen uses Propriety as a foil for irony. The irony is sharpest as in the repressed character of Mary vs that of Elizabeth and sharpest in depiction of clergyman Mr. Collins. Clergy being a class below that of gentility but more acceptable than the nouveau rich of the merchant. Austen's irony is gentle, it does not cross over to sarcasm even in the characterization of Mr. Collins. Perhaps the most astonishing and important, is the sketch of Elizabeth, the heroine of the novel. Most of Elizabet's judgments and behaviors are admitted by the heroine to be wrong as at the end she adopts the traits of compliance and modesty of Jane the elder sister. Perhaps the greatest irony is for the modern reader to view Elizabeth as a Feminist prototype.

[sciencefan]

...Passion is excluded and sex is only indirectly referred, as during a marriage sermon , as man's tendency to fornication to be regulated by holy matrimony. ...

I did not find one instance of the word fornication in a complete search of all Jane Austen's writing on this web site.

Could you please quote, with title and chapter, what you are referring to?

[Newcomer]

My error; thank you for the careful reading of my post as well as of the novel.
Elizabeth's marriage is not described in the novel. The phrase 'fornication' is used in the BBC dramatization, directed by Sue Birtwistle from the script by Andrew Davis, in the dual marriage ceremony. Having recently compared the dvd with another version directed by Joe Wright, with the screenplay by Deborah Moggach. In my enthusiasm for Austen I was sloppy. The dvd dramatization was foremost in my mind and I should have checked the book. I wish that all readers of my posts were as careful. Thank you for the criticism as it redirected my attention and made me more appreciative of the fine structure in Austen's writing.

[sciencefan]

My error; thank you for the careful reading of my post as well as of the novel.
Elizabeth's marriage is not described in the novel. The phrase 'fornication' is used in the BBC dramatization, directed by Sue Birtwistle from the script by Andrew Davis, in the dual marriage ceremony. Having recently compared the dvd with another version directed by Joe Wright, with the screenplay by Deborah Moggach. In my enthusiasm for Austen I was sloppy. The dvd dramatization was foremost in my mind and I should have checked the book. I wish that all readers of my posts were as careful. Thank you for the criticism as it redirected my attention and made me more appreciative of the fine structure in Austen's writing.

No worries. I have done the same thing myself.

I have recently watched both productions as well- January/February.
It qualifies as a binge actually.
I watched the BBC version twice in a 2 or 3 week span,
interspersed with 4 or 5 viewings of the Joe Wright version,
including watching it with the Director’s Commentary!

It was so cold here!
There really was nothing else to do!

Of course, I had to read the book... twice!
And, join this forum to find other like-minded fanatics!

But, I think I am okay now.

[Newcomer]

I am curious as to your reactions of the BBC vs Wright's dramatizations of PP.
From the fact that you watched the BBC twice vs 4 times the Wright version, I would guess that you prefer the Wright. I'm in a pleasant quandary which I prefer. The BBC's version has more of Austen's language while the Wright's is visually stunning. It has a painterly quality, especially the use of candle light to shoot the interior scenes. The novel will survive the dramatizations as they make me anxious to reread the text. for what is missing.

[sciencefan]

I am curious as to your reactions of the BBC vs Wright's dramatizations of PP.
From the fact that you watched the BBC twice vs 4 times the Wright version, I would guess that you prefer the Wright. I'm in a pleasant quandary which I prefer. The BBC's version has more of Austen's language while the Wright's is visually stunning. It has a painterly quality, especially the use of candle light to shoot the interior scenes. The novel will survive the dramatizations as they make me anxious to reread the text. for what is missing.

I believe the discrepancy in the number of times I watched each version
can be explained by the fact that the BBC version is 5 hours long,
and the Wright version only 2 hours long.
If you count the number of hours watching each one,
perhaps the time spent is almost equal.

Like you, I appreciate each one for different reasons.

My experience is this:
I had read P&P about 8 years ago.
I remembered I liked it,
but did not remember the plot
because I had read all of Austen’s books in a short time,
and they all ran together in my mind.

This year, I first watched the Wright version of P&P with Kiera Knightly,
who I did not know, but who I have come to believe is a genius.
Since all I remembered was that it was a romantic story and that I liked Darcy in the end,
I can fairly say I had no preconceived notions about what was supposed to happen in the movie.

I absolutely loved the movie.
I agree with you about the “painterly quality” of it.
The directing and acting were excellent.

Only 3 things bothered me.
I did not understand why Darcy flexed his hand after helping Elizabeth into the carriage.
It didn’t make sense to me in the context,
and made me think that Macfayden is a bad actor.
In fact, I don’t think he’s very in touch with his body language.

Secondly, being a lover of melodrama,
when he avows his love the second time, and all she replies is, “Well, then”
I was left extremely emotionally unsatisfied.
I felt victim to some British writer who loves understatement!

In fact, I had to re-read the book just so I could get the satisfaction
of knowing what really happened because surely,
“Well, then” was not enough!

Thirdly, I did not like the very end- the scene at Pemberley.
I thought it was weak- too many “Mrs. Darcys” at the end.

As I read Pride and Prejudice again after 8 years,
I saw how Wright, the scriptwriter- Moggach, and especially Knightly’s acting
had done an excellent job of portraying underlying ideas,
concepts and feelings from the book.

Overall, I thought it was well done,
verified by the fact that I have now seen it several times.


Hungry for more, I borrowed the BBC version from the library.
This, as you know, is much more faithful to the book,
and I preferred it because of that.
However, the hair and costuming was so unusual-looking that
it distracted me for the first 4 hours.
I had a hard time liking the characters
because I did not find them handsome.
I did not feel any chemistry between the actors playing Darcy and Elizabeth.

The second time I watched it through,
since everyone was more familiar to me,
I was more able to enjoy the actors, despite the costuming.

It’s interesting how much of Austen both movies quote verbatim,
and how many lines they use in common- probably at least a dozen.

Each production has its own strengths and weaknesses.
I like them both, but if I had to choose one,
it might be the BBC one because it is more emotionally satisfying,
and more true to the book.


and now... your turn...

[Newcomer]

Thank you very much for the detailed impressions of the two dramatizations. I enjoyed reading your comments. There is little that I can add as we mostly agree. I might differ on minor emphasis in the translation of the novel to a dramatization, as one is prose, the other a mixed medium, predominantly visual and achieve their effect using different areas of the brain. After all, how we process the information is personal, depending on previous experience. That is what makes it interesting.
You wrote “the hair and costuming was so unusual-looking that it distracted me for the first 4 hours.” I had not noticed, could you elaborate? Were you referring to the costumes of the Bingley sisters in the BBC version as compared to the sister in Wright version of P&P? Perhaps my reaction is based on the illustrations of novel in the Chatto & Windus edition of 1893, where the dress has the country eccentricity than the high fashion of London. In the Wright version, Kelly Reilly as Caroline Bingley, looked stunning in the white empire gown but I could not help but note that it was more representative of the St. Petersburg court of the 1900's than of a England's provincial dance of 1830's. The look was too refined, too designed. The same was of Elizabeth's dress, of Grecian simplicity, in the ball at Netherfield. Beautiful but too refined for the era.
The country dance in the BBC version, I thought had more of the rambunctious, rollicking feeling, than the more refined, staged, version of the Wright dramatization. Yet the isolation shot of Darcy dancing with Elizabeth and finishing with the shot of all the couples, was masterful. Supremely romantic, if deviating from the restrain of Austen's expressionism.
You mentioned 'Darcy flexed his hand after helping Elizabeth into the carriage.' as lacking expression of body language. I will agree that was too poetic a reference. I interpreted it as an unconscious reaction of longing, of at last having physical contact with the beloved and the fingers reaching for more.
I agree that Matthew Macfadyen is overpowered by Keira Knightley in the Wright version and totally agree that the ending is over the top. I can not watch it as it spoils a great dramatization of the novel. The Wright version has to stand on it's own merits of superb use of color, especially of the candle lit sequences and the ephemeral shots of the morning light in the misty countryside. Yet I concur that the BBC version is more satisfying translation of the novel.

[sciencefan]

...You wrote “the hair and costuming was so unusual-looking that it distracted me for the first 4 hours.” I had not noticed, could you elaborate?

I can't quite put my finger on it.
In the Wright version, the people look more modern day.

I think it was mostly the hairstyles that made the BBC actors look unusual to me:
the tight curls by the temples for the women,
and the longish curly hair of the men, looking like they need a hair cut.
And I did not find the people particularly beautiful or handsome to look at.
Jane is supposed to be "five times prettier" than everyone else,
yet she was quite average.
The woman who played Elizabeth wasn't plain,
but she wasn't beautiful either,
and her "fine eyes" were rather unremarkable.
I just didn't find them to be beautiful people,
such as we are used to in Hollywood movies.

In contrast, in the Wright version,
any of the actors' hairstyles could be considered more modern.
The actors themselves were much prettier/more handsome.

I am not used to seeing plain people in movies, I guess.

The country dance in the BBC version, I thought had more of the rambunctious, rollicking feeling, than the more refined, staged, version of the Wright dramatization. Yet the isolation shot of Darcy dancing with Elizabeth and finishing with the shot of all the couples, was masterful. Supremely romantic, if deviating from the restrain of Austen's expressionism.

I agree on both counts.

You mentioned 'Darcy flexed his hand after helping Elizabeth into the carriage.' as lacking expression of body language. I will agree that was too poetic a reference. I interpreted it as an unconscious reaction of longing, of at last having physical contact with the beloved and the fingers reaching for more.

If they wanted to communicate what you say,
the flex is an inappropriate movement,
since the flex is a visual rejection.
If they meant to show that he was beginning to have feeling for her,
as her reaction seems to questioningly ask,
he should have cupped the fingers inward.

However, at that point in the book,
he has decided that he can have nothing to do with her,
even though he would have liked to.
If that is what they wanted to portray,
then Kiera Knightly played her part wrong.
But this is a romantic movie.
Why bother touching her at all if he doesn't like her?

In the special features of the DVD, Knightly explains that it is a special moment because it is the first time they touch.

It's confusing,
I think the hand-thing was a mistake.
Later at Pemberley, we see his hand again.
This time he does not flex.

I agree that Matthew Macfadyen is overpowered by Keira Knightley in the Wright version and totally agree that the ending is over the top. I can not watch it as it spoils a great dramatization of the novel.

LOL!! YES! I know exactly what you mean!
As a matter of fact,
I think I turned it off just before that part last time,
because I just couldn't bear to watch it again!

The Wright version has to stand on it's own merits of superb use of color, especially of the candle lit sequences and the ephemeral shots of the morning light in the misty countryside. Yet I concur that the BBC version is more satisfying translation of the novel.

I agree.

Joe Wright does mention - in his commentary -
that he regreets the candlelight on Judi Dench as being too harsh when she goes to Longbourn.
(She was a brilliant Lady C.)
I agreed with him.
I think you would enjoy the commentary since he actually discusses the directing.

Nice chatting with you.

[Pf. HS Dimple]

I appreciate the efforts of monova,.,,,do u write too....would you like to write and post any sotry as ur words show ur great command over words and expression....

give it a try plz

[sciencefan]

I appreciate the efforts of monova,.,,,do u write too....would you like to write and post any sotry as ur words show ur great command over words and expression....

give it a try plz

I'm afraid I don't have a great command of words or expression,
but I wish I did, and I admire those who do.