How many earths do *you* need?

[Pensive]

Ahhh, by mistake, less than 1 got selected by me in the poll.

*frowns*

Can it be changed?

[kilted exile]

I love it!! And proud of it. If you want to live like you're in the third world, be my guest. I think I'll enjoy prosperity. If you feel so guilty, why don't you trade places with someone in a third world village. That person would love to trade.

I think you are missing the point here Virg, it is not trading places that should happen (there would still be the same problem) it is more equal use of resources that is required. But hey so long as you're good screw everyone else right?

[Pensive]

I think you are missing the point here Virg, it is not trading places that should happen (there would still be the same problem) it is more equal use of resources that is required. But hey so long as you're good screw everyone else right?

To some extent, I agree. If everyone will start thinking for himself/herself then there wouldn't be any life one day. And the truth is that one day bad conditions (I hope it wouldn't happen) can come over you. In that case, government will have to help you. And how will it do so when there wouldn't be any resources??

I saw earthquake hitting Pakistan, it was terrible, killed millions of people. And just because we did not have much resources/money/food problems, there are still people homeless.

But the biggest problem regarding consumption I can see is the population. Only if there would have been less population, things would have been better in Pakistan. There would be no point in blaming those who earn good....all that needs to be done is to either reduce population or get your asses on to a new planet.

[Virgil]

I think you are missing the point here Virg, it is not trading places that should happen (there would still be the same problem) it is more equal use of resources that is required. But hey so long as you're good screw everyone else right?

Right. I work, earn a living, put food on the table, care for my family, help others. I'm not about to bicycle acrosss town when i have a car. I'm not about to eat porridge when I can afford meat. I'm not going to live in a shack or a one bedroom apartment when I can afford a house. I'm striving for the third world to enjoy life like people in the west can, not reduce my life to that of the third world. That to me is progress. You mention India and China consuming. Well, that consumption means that they are achieving a better standard of living. That is a good thing. Theire lives are infinitely better and I hope that some day they can enjoy life as well as I. I don't find it noble to live like a pauper. I don't find it noble to make my life harder for some ambiguous goal. They used to call people who did that in the middle ages monks. I don't intend to live like a monk for some vague religion of environmentalism.

[kilted exile]

Right. I work, earn a living, put food on the table, care for my family, help others. I'm not about to bicycle acrosss town when i have a car. I'm not about to eat porridge when I can afford meat. I'm not going to live in a shack or a one bedroom apartment when I can afford a house. I'm striving for the third world to enjoy life like people in the west can, not reduce my life to that of the third world. That to me is progress. You mention India and China consuming. Well, that consumption means that they are achieving a better standard of living. That is a good thing. Theire lives are infinitely better and I hope that some day they can enjoy life as well as I. I don't find it noble to live like a pauper. I don't find it noble to make my life harder for some ambiguous goal. They used to call people who did that in the middle ages monks. I don't intend to live like a monk for some vague religion of environmentalism.

Ok no-one (at least nobody sensible, organisations such as Greenpeace might but that is another story for another day and time) is saying you must give up meat live in a one bedroom apartment or shack and bike everywhere. Nor do you have to live like a pauper or monk.

However, as someone in the western world who earns a decent wage. There are more options open to you to live a good life and still conserve resources than will immediately be open to the developing world (which to begin with will still be powered by coal, some countries may want to use nuclear but of course we cant be having that - anyway that is straying into the forbidden political territory). These options include changing the type of car you own to a more efficient model (possibly, I am of course not sure of what kind of vehicle you drive) or even a hybrid. I am going to assume you have some kind of garden (as you mentioned a house) you could compost some of your waste in order to reduce landfill space. You could buy foods which contain less packaging. And of course, everybody can recycle more. Then we move to inside the house, well you're an engineer you know all the ways you can improve efficiency inside your home - even if you dont do it thinking it'll be good for the environment you will at least reduce heating and cooling expenses and that is always nice but can I suggest if you can afford it that you look into GeoThermal power?

Then there are steps your government could take like introducing tax breaks etc for energy reducing measures by the general public or forcing oil companies to make biodiesel more available.

Yes the boom in Asia is signifying a better standard of living (which everyone will agree is a great thing) however you're wish for them to have the same as what you currently have simply cant happen. There is no way everyone in the world can live and use the same amount of resources as is consumed by the western world currently. We can only use that much because of the large number of people that are not.

[Petrarch's Love]

CATEGORY ACRES
FOOD 4.4
MOBILITY 0.7
SHELTER 3
GOODS/SERVICES 3.5
TOTAL FOOTPRINT 12



IN COMPARISON, THE AVERAGE ECOLOGICAL FOOTPRINT IN YOUR COUNTRY IS 24 ACRES PER PERSON.

WORLDWIDE, THERE EXIST 4.5 BIOLOGICALLY PRODUCTIVE ACRES PER PERSON.

Wow, given the results of most people on this thing, myself included , it seems we should start figuring out how to colonize mars, or better yet Jupiter. Actually some friends of mine from the astronomy department were talking about possible lunar colonization the other day. Maybe they'll start sending anyone who needs more than one planet to the dark side.

By the way, this may be a stupid question, but I can't quite figure out how they're getting 3 acres out of my tiny city apartment. Are they figuring out the land needed to generate the electricity or something? I guess that would make sense.

And wow Virg, seven and a half planets?! I thought I lived like a spoiled American, but you've got me beat. I'm not even sure how you did it? I took the quiz according to my lifestyle in California, where I drive more and my family lives in a big house, and it still only bumped me up by one acre (and I certainly don't live like a pauper ).

[Virgil]

By the way, this may be a stupid question, but I can't quite figure out how they're getting 3 acres out of my tiny city apartment. Are they figuring out the land needed to generate the electricity or something? I guess that would make sense.

And wow Virg, seven and a half planets?! I thought I lived like a spoiled American, but you've got me beat. I'm not even sure how you did it? I took the quiz according to my lifestyle in California, where I drive more and my family lives in a big house, and it still only bumped me up by one acre (and I certainly don't live like a pauper ).

I don't either. But like I said I'm poud of it. I'm willing to bet that the quiz is skewed against Americans. We have more land here, and so our homes are much bigger than what I've come across in Europe. Plus we eat more meat here, and getting around on bicycle is impractical in our spread out cities and countrysides.

[Madhuri]

I live in India and I work as hard as anyone else living in the West, and I do enjoy a good standard of living. I have all the facilities that any educated person can aspire for, I agree that India is a developing nation (not a third world, plzzz) and has a huge population, its true that a lot has to be achieved, but we are no way less than anyone.

[Laindessiel]

India is a fast developing country! I admire India for using its resources to not keep the country from stagnating. India can never be a third-world country with the progression rate it's goin now.

[Virgil]

However, as someone in the western world who earns a decent wage. There are more options open to you to live a good life and still conserve resources than will immediately be open to the developing world.

This is where we seem to disagree. You seem to think that the resources are limited. I'm telling you that they're infinite. A study was out I think it was last month that estimated the total oil still untapped and it said that of all the oil that has been used in the hundred and fifty or so years we've been using it, we have only consumed around 18%. We have enough oil to last the world for the next several hundred years. The third world is not poor because they can't buy oil.

which to begin with will still be powered by coal,

We still use coal in this country.

some countries may want to use nuclear but of course we cant be having that

These same envionmentalist who are screaming like chicken littles now told us it was no good to use nuclear energy when I was growing up. The fact is that if you listen to the enviornmentalist they don't want us to use energy period. Coal, natural gas, and oil are greenhouse gases, nuclear creates radioactive material. What are we supposed to use? They think we can live on solar panels and windmills. They really want us to live like cave men, and even then they're afraid that firewood is going to cause a forest fire.

I am of course not sure of what kind of vehicle you drive) or even a hybrid. I am going to assume you have some kind of garden (as you mentioned a house) you could compost some of your waste in order to reduce landfill space. You could buy foods which contain less packaging. And of course, everybody can recycle more. Then we move to inside the house, well you're an engineer you know all the ways you can improve efficiency inside your home - even if you dont do it thinking it'll be good for the environment you will at least reduce heating and cooling expenses and that is always nice but can I suggest if you can afford it that you look into GeoThermal power?

I drive a fairly good fuel efficient car (it's now ten years old and there are better) but I drive an hour each way to work. I carpool with three other guys, I conscientiously recycle (although sometimes I think it's a waste), and I tried composting (my mother still does) for while but it's a pain so I no longer. I have no issue with other sources of energy if you can justify them by cost. We can talk about alternative energy sources, if you like. But each of them have ramifications like oil and coal. Geothermal is a good idea, where it's coming up from the ground on it's own, but if you're going to dig to tap large resources of it, then you're going to warm the outer earth at an unnatural rate, and what does that do to the environment. Those windmills are very poor efficiency, kill lots of birds, and in theory if built enough of them you're going to alter the air stream, which will cause all sorts of climate change. Solar panels are the only thing that get you something without environmental impact, and we could do more of that to save a few dollars, but it won't make much of an impact.

Then there are steps your government could take like introducing tax breaks etc for energy reducing measures by the general public or forcing oil companies to make biodiesel more available.

We have that and I'm not against it.

Yes the boom in Asia is signifying a better standard of living (which everyone will agree is a great thing) however you're wish for them to have the same as what you currently have simply cant happen. There is no way everyone in the world can live and use the same amount of resources as is consumed by the western world currently. We can only use that much because of the large number of people that are not

Again this is where we disagree. You also assume the same population or worst. Developed countries are having huge population declines. Higher standard of living for some reason seems to cause people to have less children. The world population will eventually stabilize and then decline.

[Virgil]

I live in India and I work as hard as anyone else living in the West, and I do enjoy a good standard of living. I have all the facilities that any educated person can aspire for, I agree that India is a developing nation (not a third world, plzzz) and has a huge population, its true that a lot has to be achieved, but we are no way less than anyone.

Maddie, I hope you don't think I was putting India down. I think India and China in the last 10 years have been doing the correct economic policy for the improvement of its citizens. By following the environmentalist's argument, you've done bad thing. There is no shame in wanting a better life.

[miss tenderness]

CATEGORY GLOBAL HECTARES

FOOD 2.4

MOBILITY 0.2

SHELTER 1.5

GOODS/SERVICES 1.7

TOTAL FOOTPRINT 5.8



IN COMPARISON, THE AVERAGE ECOLOGICAL FOOTPRINT IN YOUR COUNTRY IS 4.1 GLOBAL HECTARES PER PERSON.

WORLDWIDE, THERE EXIST 1.8 BIOLOGICALLY PRODUCTIVE GLOBAL HECTARES PER PERSON.




IF EVERYONE LIVED LIKE YOU, WE WOULD NEED 3.2 PLANETS.

3 planets!

[kilted exile]

Ok, to clear up a few things:

- I really dislike the term environmentalist, it used to be a good term but it has been hijacked by so many groups and organisations (Greenpeace - but again I digress) that it only has any meaning as a soundbite used by media companies to cover a large number of groups with at times different ideologies and ways they would like the problem to be solved. Some of them as you mentioned would like to see people turn to a vegetable only diet, I enjoy having discussions with these people as they quite quickly turn out not to have a clue what they are on about. Others such as myself are somewhat technocrats, we believe there are technological solutions to these problems and with proper funding we can find them.

- The global warming with regards to Ozone depletion issue is one which I do not believe fully relates to this matter ( It is a peripheral issue) and in actual fact I do not subscribe fully to it. I may expand on this at a future date.

- The part about the test being skewed against americans due to land mass I can not agree with. Firstly I believe Canada is larger and the test does not appear to have skewed things too much with regards to the Canadian average. However as I said earlier the test itself is inherently flawed for a large number of reasons.

- Do you have any information as to the group which carried out the study you refer to, I too remember hearing some mention of it on CNN (terrible channel) but I did not have time to listen to the full story. I ask because of the inherent biases in most studies of this type carried out by both sides, due to the politics rule I cant really expand on this point further.

Anyway, that's all for now may return later to edit this and add more

[Nightshade]

hum,mm a few thing energy saver light bulbs.... eviromentaly friendly AND they save you masses on the leccy bill. course they are expnsive in the beging and useless if you have dimmer switches but they last 10 years!! surley they are worth the cost?

Theres all sorts of things that people can do to be more 'eco friendly' and for the most part they are actually money saving ( yes Ill admit Im not only P&P oriented but also bloddy tight fisted when it comes to spending my money so I reap the double benifits of being ecofriendly)


I like that term technocrats... like more renwable resorces for energy.. I mean I think wind turbines look rather nice what is all the fuss about? and theres those tide generaters, solar pannels ( obviouusly not for england but still!) Im sure if you think about it there mnust be hundreds of ways to clean up our act it just takes a bit demermination and elbow grease or in this case will and funding.


And its hardly fair that the rest of the world is paying the price for the luxery of a few,are you saying that 3rd woirld people dont work bloody hard for their livlihoods?
But how would vegtebable or meat affect the enviroment??

[kilted exile]

But how would vegtebable or meat affect the enviroment??

It would not affect things to any large amount it is just that a lot of groups (i.e Greenpeace) have other agendas which the vegetarian aspect fulfills so they try to work it into this discussion as well.