The translation there uses a passive verb '... are chosen' so it does not sound to me like it is the choice of the believer.
The translation there uses a passive verb '... are chosen' so it does not sound to me like it is the choice of the believer.
If it is not the choice of the believer, then where is free will?
No one in the world can alter truth. All we can do is seek it and live it.
Good question.
you created god.
"He was nauseous with regret when he saw her face again, and when, as of yore, he pleaded and begged at her knees for the joy of her being. She understood Neal; she stroked his hair; she knew he was mad."
---Jack Kerouac, On The Road: The Original Scroll
Oooo! There is a scripture in the Bible that says how God was created, I think. Read Habakkuk chp3 verses 3-6
Bella
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The cat's in the cradle and the silver spoon, little boy blue and the man in the moon...When are you coming home dad? I don't know when, but I hope to see you then.
Me? Personally? It's grand to be omnipotent!! And here I was thinking I was the created being made of dust. Turns out I'm the Creator. Ok plebs ... for my next trick.
A choice. We choose. It would be unfair if it would be a God-given. Because some doesn't have faith, some doesn't believes God. If faith would be God-given then that would mean God gave faith to some of us, and didn't give faith to some of us, and that's completely unfair.Originally Posted by ennison
On the other hand, if God would choose for us, there wouldn't be free will, and if there wouldn't be free will, there wouldn't ben sin or goodness too.
if we had the answers, we would be God.
Our will is relaited to will of God, God gave us the ability to choose, his will was that we will have the will to choose and his will was also that we will be able to choose 1 thing of 2: or to believe in him or not to believe. So you who say that you have the total free will, why you dont create another type of will out of the will that God decided..
Habakkuk 3:3-6
3:3 God came from Teman, and the Holy One from mount Paran. Selah. His glory covered the heavens, and the earth was full of his praise.
3:4 And [his] brightness was as the light; he had horns [coming] out of his hand: and there [was] the hiding of his power.
3:5 Before him went the pestilence, and burning coals went forth at his feet.
3:6 He stood, and measured the earth: he beheld, and drove asunder the nations; and the everlasting mountains were scattered, the perpetual hills did bow: his ways [are] everlasting.
Where does this tell who, what, when, where, or how God was created? If you replace the word "God" with the name of any King, it becomes the account of a battle or punishment. "King David came from Teman, by way of Mount Paran--" see? This is a statement of judgement upon a people not of the creation of God, and the direction from which the judgement came, in the form of some sort of pestilence, and perhaps an earthquake.
Some of us laugh
Some of us cry
Some of us smoke
Some of us lie
But it's all just the way
that we cope with our lives...
If you had read my earlier posts you would know nobody said we have a FREE WILL LIKE GOD'S WILL. God's will is out of universe, time, and all of other concepts in this time, so even comparing his will to human's will is completely silly. It's silly as asking "Who created God?". But in this universe, for limits of this universe, we absolutely have total free will. All concepts, including good and bad, time, mercy or merciless created by God. You can choose whatever you want, and it's total free will for limits of this universe, nobody's comparing God's will to human will, if you read some scholars such as Maturidi or Rabbani you understand those things better.
And this is what i said in my earlier post;
And nothing created God, he created everything.
we are all using the word God, and some of us little realize that this word may mean a different person for others..for example for some of us God only means "someone who created us and this universe" and for others he is, besides being the Creator, someone who is merciful, omnipotent etc...
so, i believe this fact should be kept in view while communicating to people who have different opinion...As God is not only the creator for many of us, but also a combination of some qualities...why not take into account the fact that there may be someone who believed in evil God...the Creator who does not want us to be happy or who wants us to be doomed...i know such people who have no hope in life or expect anything good after they die.
moreover, someone above was talking about scientific proofs.for them...
""suppose what u say is truth for present....your prophet was true..he was appointed by God to do so and so..and the book you hold is the word of God..Suppose that you were made to live in the paradise after you died..(afeter you were given antoher life)...What is the guarantee that after a few days/months/years he , the God, once again will not put you in this world or even a worse one..afterall he did a thing of which he was not to have any benifet. and he did it when it was not really needed (was it really needed you think??? and if it was, who needed it??) and another thing
if he did not fulfil what u say he has promised, who would compell him to do so....can you bring forth any scientific proof that His will will not change..after all he seems a capricious person..who does freaks without any disires..he can do even more funny tricks with even less desire...
To my it really boils down to a matter of faith. without any thing to do with logic or science..no one can proove his being (with certain qualities one presuemes) using logic or science like no one can prove the opposite of it...
Turk where did i mistake in my previuos post, i didnt compare will of God with our will, i said that our will will is relaited to will of God and i mean by that that our will is limited by will of God, our will does not go out of will of God the total will.
I didnt read alot about free will in islam but Better to read books of the 4 scholars Shafi'i, Abu Hanifa, Maliki, Hanbali, and Ibn Alqaiyem and other famous scholars.
Maturidi was more as Mutakallem," المتكلمة" they use more philosophy in explaining, not so good, i dont want to get in these things but i understand your words.
I think in this thread we are on the discussion who created God, the base of believing in God is believing in him as the creator of this universe, was thi universe created or did it come alone, and in this point no matter what your faith is we all have the choice to answer 2 answers: "this world was created" or "this world came alone". So i think what you said will come after the person choose the answer. The answer that will be is relaited to how you look to this universe, and also your thoughts that will be also are relaited to how you look to this universe around, does the one who created all this world are playing around? does the one who did all this sofisticated things will at us and why? more that you admire the universe more that you will have good thoughts about God, also to know God is not enough to look around, here come the searching for his words his path to read what is presented , the proofs that he gave to his prophet in order to proove the validity of this text. If you want to think about God as one who play around then you are takling about person not God, or like one who lie then you are talkijng about person not God.
Last edited by Shield&Sword; 11-29-2006 at 11:28 AM.
You didn't compare our will to God's will. But you sounded like we are comparing these two.
Shafi, Hanefi, Maliki and Hanbali are four sects of Islam, but they are practical sects, there's widely accepted 2 creedal sects; Eşar'iyye and Maturidiyye. Their subjects are different, İmamı Azam Abu Hanife, Imam Shafi or Ahmed Bin Hanbel mostly explain practical stuff. Since Maturidi or Eş'ari explained creedel stuff, it's normal that their style is more philosophic. But if you research about 4 practical sects's Imams, you see they accept Maturidi's or Eşari's thoughts about creedel stuff.
Last edited by Turk; 11-29-2006 at 11:45 AM. Reason: Practical=Ameli, Creedal=İtikadi
I'm sorry Turk you want God to operate according to your ideas of fairness. Such a God is a little god just like us. We have to drop our conceptions of fairness. I can choose X or Y or Z and each choice is either motivated by flesh or reason - both flawed so I'm afraid your idea that we choose faith does not hold water with me. We choose religions - all flawed. We choose tribes - all clay. We choose this modern trend or that - all temporary. God's too big to choose. God does the choosing as a form of humbling.
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