Varenka

[grace86]

I was wondering if anyone could tell me the book and chapter in Anna Karenina where Varenka has the children in the woods and where there was a "moment" that passed between her and Koznyshev-am I right that it was him?

I would look it up, but I am working and just don't have the time. Thank you in advance.

[bazarov]

http://www.online-literature.com/tol..._karenina/161/

If link is incorrect, book 6., chapter 4. and then it goes...
Is it OK?

[grace86]

Thank you bazarov...what I was looking for was actually in the next chapter, but I wouldn't have found it if you had not first told me where to look. I was looking for this:

"What is the difference between the 'birch' mushroom and the 'white' mushroom?"

Varenka's lips quivered with emotion as she answered:

"In the top part there is scarcely any difference, it's in the stalk."

And as soon as these words were uttered, both he and she felt that it was over, that what was to have been said would not be said; and their emotion, which had up to then been continually growing more intense, began to subside.

Thank you!

[Idril]

It's amazing how quickly those major decisions were made, wasn't it? And what minor happenings could bring them about. The Victorians were the same way, it must be a 19th century thing.

[bazarov]

It's not a 19th century thing, it's a human thing. I hope you'll never experinece something like that

[grace86]

I would hope not, I've already got my sweetie....hmm that would really be awful!

[Idril]

It's not a 19th century thing, it's a human thing. I hope you'll never experinece something like that

Maybe it's the norwegian lutheran in me but that kind of rash thinking and action seem so foreign. And I think that may be one of the reasons why I love Russian literature so much because that kind of passion is just not something I grew up with and I'm not just talking about romantic passion but passion for life, the ability to feel and express very intense emotions because that's just something Norwegian lutherans do not do.

But I do think it's odd for a decision like whether or not you're going to marry someone to be decided while you're talking about mushrooms and then never to think about it or reconsider it. I understand having wild thoughts like, 'Man, did you see the way he ate that taco? I don't think I can spend the rest of my life with someone who eats a taco like that" but generally, there is more thought put into than that, it's an impulse thought and maybe at some point you will decide you can't marry someone who eats a taco like that but at least you've thought about it. Koznyshev and Varenka were so close to marriage, a few minutes before that conversation took place, he was ready to propose and she was ready to accept and then because of some weird vibe, they're both just done...I just can't imagine something that important being decided in that manner.

[grace86]

Idril I understand what you are saying. To have the fate of whether or not you get married determined by something so stupid as mushrooms...well that is kind of dumb. Consider the fact that they were never involved with each other either...the potential of any further thought - not just a proposal - was totally killed because of a sentence. To take it literally, they didn't even know eachother.

Maybe that is the part of the story that makes it unrealistic. In real life, you have to put up with moments that kill the passion every once in awhile, but that doesn't mean that the way your guy eats a taco should kill any future potential at passion...hmm...

Now that I think about it, I wonder why that scene was put in there. Any thoughts on a deeper, more philosophical meaning to it?

[bazarov]

If you can remember situation between Koznyshev and Varenka, she liked him very much and he did like her also. When he stayed alone with his thougths, he asked him self is Varenka worth enough for losing his peace, freedom and memory on his wife Marya. His conclusion was: NO, SHE'S NOT!
Little after that, they were left alone in that ''mushroom situatuon'', so they can tell thier feelings to each other. Varenka waited for something like:'' I love you, will you be my wife...?'' and Koznyshev knew that but he didn't want that, so he told her something totally different: "What is the difference between the 'birch' mushroom and the 'white' mushroom?" She knew, and he knew that now she had realized that there won't be anything between them. He told her that; it was said in different words, but the meaning was very clear to her, it was his way of telling the things without hurting her. Mushrooms were just a subject he used for his words. It could be anything: horses, flowers, dogs, etc. But Tolstoy decided it will be mushrooms, and mushrooms it was.

[downing]

If you can remember situation between Koznyshev and Varenka, she liked him very much and he did like her also. When he stayed alone with his thougths, he asked him self is Varenka worth enough for losing his peace, freedom and memory on his wife Marya. His conclusion was: NO, SHE'S NOT!
Little after that, they were left alone in that ''mushroom situatuon'', so they can tell thier feelings to each other. Varenka waited for something like:'' I love you, will you be my wife...?'' and Koznyshev knew that but he didn't want that, so he told her something totally different: "What is the difference between the 'birch' mushroom and the 'white' mushroom?" She knew, and he knew that now she had realized that there won't be anything between them. He told her that; it was said in different words, but the meaning was very clear to her, it was his way of telling the things without hurting her. Mushrooms were just a subject he used for his words. It could be anything: horses, flowers, dogs, etc. But Tolstoy decided it will be mushrooms, and mushrooms it was.

Bazarov, that's a great point of view. I have finished A K a few weeks ago and I loved it. I liked a lot this part of the book, the conversation between Varenka and Koznyshev. It seemed so malancholy... and sad.
But I liked your idea; that Koznyshev used mushrooms to show Varenka that he can't marry her, to express his feelings. That's a very insightful analysis, I really liked it and I think you're right.

[bazarov]

Bazarov, that's a great point of view. I have finished A K a few weeks ago and I loved it. I liked a lot this part of the book, the conversation between Varenka and Koznyshev. It seemed so malancholy... and sad.
But I liked your idea; that Koznyshev used mushrooms to show Varenka that he can't marry her, to express his feelings. That's a very insightful analysis, I really liked it and I think you're right.

Downing, thank you very much, I was really sad when I saw that grace86 and Idril don't agree with me You just made my day happier!

[downing]

Oh,you're flattering me! But I'm glad you found someone who understood. Your ideas are very important for me in this thread, because I know you're a very big Russian reader and critique Keep on analysing, you do it very well.

[bazarov]

I'm not Belinsky, but I'm doing my best
Now you really made my weekend!

[Idril]

Downing, thank you very much, I was really sad when I saw that grace86 and Idril don't agree with me You just made my day happier!

I wouldn't say I didn't agree with you Baz, I just didn't look at it that deeply. Like the 'initial' scene with Kitty and Levin, there seems to be some sort of, almost telepathy going on between the characters that just seems somehow supernatural. That they could both understand what Koznyshev was saying with his cryptic mushroom talk is quite amazing and I think speaks of a significant connection, it seems a shame he wasn't able to overcome whatever it was that kept him from proposing.

[grace86]

Downing, thank you very much, I was really sad when I saw that grace86 and Idril don't agree with me You just made my day happier!

Uh hem... I don't remember disagreeing with you. In fact, I don't think I ever got back to replying to your thoughts. So sorry baz.

That scene continues to be one of my most favorite and heart felt scenes...real life experiences touch on it a bit so I can understand your thoughts on it.