Has anyone here read For Whom the Bell Tolls?

[jennyg]

I read it a long time ago, translated in Greek, so language was not a challenge. As far as I remember I wasn't impressed, definitely not my favorite... Now I'm thinking I might have wronged it and might go for it again...

[Iain Sparrow]

I've read it, and The Old Man and the Sea in high school... didn't enjoy either.
I don't like Hemingway the man, and I sure don't appreciate his "economical" prose.
So if you weren't impressed with For Whom the Bell Tolls, you aren't alone in that sentiment.

[Pike Bishop]

I wasn't impressed by the book, but I''m not impressed by most of Hemingway's novels. Short stories were definitely his milieu. The Sun Also Rises, however is his excellent outlier, where his "minimalist" style actually works in novel form. If FWTBT keeps disappointing you, you might want to give it a try.

[mortalterror]

Hemingway is my favorite author. For Whom the Bell Tolls is his best novel, but I'll agree that his short stories are better. FWTBT is a very romantic novel, both literally and in the nineteenth century sense. It's full of long passages about the beauty of nature, young people in love, and men dying tragically for a good cause. Hemingway's style in this book might not translate well, since it isn't really "minimalist" or "economical" the way the above posters describe it. It's very poetic prose, full of rhythms and repetitions. If you are stalling out in one of the earlier sections, I wouldn't recommend The Sun Also Rises to you. I'd recommend his autobiography A Moveable Feast. It is light and fast paced in comparison to the more lyrical FWTBT. The Old Man and The Sea is the real good condensed purified uncut Hemingway. It's novella length and contains most of the themes he worked on throughout his career. Or you could just try his best short story The Snows of Kilimanjaro.

[WICKES]

I've read it, and The Old Man and the Sea in high school... didn't enjoy either.
I don't like Hemingway the man, and I sure don't appreciate his "economical" prose.
So if you weren't impressed with For Whom the Bell Tolls, you aren't alone in that sentiment.

I agree. I can't stand Hemingway the man/myth. I mean the awful macho posturing, the tedious 'world-weary', 'man-of-the-world', 'I've-seen-it-all' pose. Ugghh If you want to know about the Spanish Civil war, read Orwell's Homage to Catalonia. For some reason Hemingway has a reputation as the great novelist of 20th century warfare. But Hemingway was no soldier. He just flitted around the edge of war zones, desperate for a light wound and a few anecdotes he could bore everyone with while he drank. He was a braggart, bully and show off. If you want to know what war is really like, read Robert Graves' Goodbye to all that, a work by a man who'd taken part in bayonet charges, fought hand to hand and yet hasn't a fraction of the posturing of Hemingway. Or read the poetry of Siegfried Sassoon and Wilfred Owen, real soldiers who really experienced the horror of war.

There is no doubt that Hemingway was a very talented novelist, but he is overrated. You soon grow sick of that stripped down prose. Saying it all by saying nothing, or very little, is fine and clever in a few short stories or a single novel, but it quickly becomes irritating.

[mortalterror]

I agree. I can't stand Hemingway the man/myth. I mean the awful macho posturing, the tedious 'world-weary', 'man-of-the-world', 'I've-seen-it-all' pose. Ugghh If you want to know about the Spanish Civil war, read Orwell's Homage to Catalonia. For some reason Hemingway has a reputation as the great novelist of 20th century warfare. But Hemingway was no soldier. He just flitted around the edge of war zones, desperate for a light wound and a few anecdotes he could bore everyone with while he drank. He was a braggart, bully and show off. If you want to know what war is really like, read Robert Graves' Goodbye to all that, a work by a man who'd taken part in bayonet charges, fought hand to hand and yet hasn't a fraction of the posturing of Hemingway. Or read the poetry of Siegfried Sassoon and Wilfred Owen, real soldiers who really experienced the horror of war.

There is no doubt that Hemingway was a very talented novelist, but he is overrated. You soon grow sick of that stripped down prose. Saying it all by saying nothing, or very little, is fine and clever in a few short stories or a single novel, but it quickly becomes irritating.

Hemingway wasn't an actual soldier, but he did have more experience of war than your average war correspondent. He was an ambulance driver in WW1 who took shrapnel in his leg carrying a wounded soldier to safety. Then he covered the war in Greece, the Spanish Civil War, and WW2 for newspapers. He even violated his journalistic oath when he blew up some Nazis with a grenade. Along with his expert knowledge of hunting and guns, I'd say that he knew enough to write about the subject convincingly. There are even parts of For Whom the Bell Tolls that are so vivid and realistic that they strike me as authentic occurrences which he's weaved into his narrative. I speak of the massacre in the village, the siege of the hill, and the betrayal at the bridge.

The Canadian writer Morley Callaghan outboxed Hemingway, but that doesn't mean he wrote better boxing stories. In fact, most boxers like most soldiers can't write literature very well at all. I get that you have a bias against Hemingway for being macho, but try to put your feelings about the man aside when you read his books. I loved Orwell's Homage to Catalonia even though I didn't agree with his anarchist sympathies. Siegfried Sassoon is good, but a tad flowery in his prose. Wilfred Owen, there isn't that much of and he has a touch of that "world weary" "I've seen it all" pose you claim to dislike about Hemingway. I'll add that James Jones' Thin Red Line and From Here to Eternity aren't as well written as Hemingway's novels even though he'd seen combat. Ditto Norman Mailer's The Naked and the Dead. General Patton comes off as a whiny little poser in his writing. General Rommel makes his account of winning an iron cross blasé. Although, Remarque's All Quiet on the Western Front is excellent. With the Old Breed by Eugene Sledge is good. Tim O'Brien's short story The Things They Carried is another good one. But you are just as likely, perhaps more likely, to get a good war book by a journalist as by a soldier. Michael Herr's Dispatches is fantastic. And I liked what I read of Marguerite Higgins and Keith Douglas in The Norton Book of Modern War. I've only seen the movie adaptation but Mark Bowden's Black Hawk Down is very popular with fans of this genre. The historian Stephen Ambrose never fired a shot in anger before penning Band of Brothers. Considering that so many good books about war have been written by non-soldiers, taking Hemingway to task is like complaining that Robert Graves wasn't really a Roman.

[Iain Sparrow]

I agree. I can't stand Hemingway the man/myth. I mean the awful macho posturing, the tedious 'world-weary', 'man-of-the-world', 'I've-seen-it-all' pose. Ugghh If you want to know about the Spanish Civil war, read Orwell's Homage to Catalonia. For some reason Hemingway has a reputation as the great novelist of 20th century warfare. But Hemingway was no soldier. He just flitted around the edge of war zones, desperate for a light wound and a few anecdotes he could bore everyone with while he drank. He was a braggart, bully and show off. If you want to know what war is really like, read Robert Graves' Goodbye to all that, a work by a man who'd taken part in bayonet charges, fought hand to hand and yet hasn't a fraction of the posturing of Hemingway. Or read the poetry of Siegfried Sassoon and Wilfred Owen, real soldiers who really experienced the horror of war.

There is no doubt that Hemingway was a very talented novelist, but he is overrated. You soon grow sick of that stripped down prose. Saying it all by saying nothing, or very little, is fine and clever in a few short stories or a single novel, but it quickly becomes irritating.

I live in Florida and vacationed once in Key West, where Hemingway is legend... wish the tour guide told the real story of Mr.Hemingway; the heavy drinking, the bullying of men he knew he could better in a fight, the loss of talent, his pathetic womanizing, his self-mythologizing. One thing we know for certain, the one fair fight he took part in; a boxing match with a minor Canadian writer named Morley Callaghan at the American Club in Paris in the Summer of 1929, hosted by F Scott Fitzgerald, ended badly for him. Morley easily knocked him to the canvas. Hemingway never got over it, even decades later making endless excuses over Fitzgerald's timekeeping.
There is something to be said about Hemingway's style, it was counter to writers like Fitzgerald who often painted a picture with too many colors... but as you said, Hemingway was better suited for the short form. I put Ernest Hemingway in the same camp with Truman Capote (I know, it would seem the two were as different as can be); they gave the literary world a much needed shot in the arm with a different approach to storytelling, were overtaken by fame, and then succumbed to their own bull****.

[Iain Sparrow]

Hemingway wasn't an actual soldier, but he did have more experience of war than your average war correspondent. He was an ambulance driver in WW1 who took shrapnel in his leg carrying a wounded soldier to safety. Then he covered the war in Greece, the Spanish Civil War, and WW2 for newspapers. He even violated his journalistic oath when he blew up some Nazis with a grenade.

You conveniently skipped the part about Hemingway not shipping out to Europe in what would seem a heroic, or even timely manner... in fact he was in Havana for months after America declared war, drinking-fishing-whatnot... eventually he devoted himself to the cause by hunting for Nazi submarines in a wooden fishing boat. Which is either a grandiose display of manliness, or insanity... take your choice.

[mortalterror]

I live in Florida and vacationed once in Key West, where Hemingway is legend...

And rightfully so. He's one of the best writers America has ever produced. I put him right up there with Twain who's a legend in Hannibal, MO.

wish the tour guide told the real story of Mr.Hemingway; the heavy drinking,

If sack and sugar be a fault,
God help the wicked! if to be old and merry be a
sin, then many an old host that I know is damned:

the bullying of men he knew he could better in a fight,

Besides Fitzgerald or maybe Ezra Pound, whom he sparred with from time to time, who might you be referring to?

the loss of talent,

As far as I can tell, he was only getting better. His best short story The Snows of Kilimanjaro comes out when he's 37. He writes his best novel For Whom the Bell Tolls when he's 41. He writes his masterpiece The Old Man and the Sea when he's 53. A Moveable Feast published just after he dies ( is phenomenal, better than his early novels, and the unfinished Islands in the Stream contains passages of genius. No doubt it could have been shaped into a much better book had he lived.

his pathetic womanizing,

Is womanizing really pathetic? Maybe, from a woman's point of view.

his self-mythologizing.

It's hard to fault a man for knowing just how good he is. Humility may be a virtue, but I can't think of many really good writers who possessed it.

One thing we know for certain, the one fair fight he took part in; a boxing match with a minor Canadian writer named Morley Callaghan at the American Club in Paris in the Summer of 1929, hosted by F Scott Fitzgerald, ended badly for him. Morley easily knocked him to the canvas. Hemingway never got over it, even decades later making endless excuses over Fitzgerald's timekeeping.

Speaking as a fan of boxing, a four minute round makes a very big difference. Men often pace themselves for three minutes. It can be pretty grueling without the mandatory rest period between rounds which often saves a fighter. Fighters usually empty their gas tank in the last minute and then expect to recharge in their corner, so depending how tired you are, at what pace you set, or how the fight is going the length of the round is very important. When time keepers make mistakes in professional boxing the losing boxer has grounds for appeal to the commission sanctioning the fight to have the result overturned and to schedule a rematch. Honestly, I'd be upset too if I lost at any competition due to someone tinkering with the rules. In this situation, it seems clear that Hemingway was getting the worst of it, and Fitzgerald who couldn't best Hemingway himself decided to not call time and let Callaghan do it for him. I don't know if that's passive aggressive, or actual aggressive, but it does seem underhanded, sneaky, and not the sort of thing a friend would do.

People get hurt in the ring all the time like that. Currently, Floyd Mayweather Jr. is being sued by members of his gym for a thirty minute long grueling sparring session without rounds, which he encouraged the boxers to engage in for an episode of Showtime's All Access. In addition to civil damages, Mayweather could have his gym license revoked for encouraging unsafe training conditions. A tough guy like you might be able to take punches all day, but as you can see, in the boxing world, having a full grown man hit you for sixty seconds longer than you agreed to is kind of a big deal.

There is something to be said about Hemingway's style, it was counter to writers like Fitzgerald who often painted a picture with too many colors... but as you said, Hemingway was better suited for the short form. I put Ernest Hemingway in the same camp with Truman Capote (I know, it would seem the two were as different as can be); they gave the literary world a much needed shot in the arm with a different approach to storytelling, were overtaken by fame, and then succumbed to their own bull****.

I don't see it that way at all. I see a very sensitive talented man who's family has a history of severe mental illness, struggling with his demons for much of his adult life before tragically succumbing to crippling depression.

You conveniently skipped the part about Hemingway not shipping out to Europe in what would seem a heroic, or even timely manner... in fact he was in Havana for months after America declared war, drinking-fishing-whatnot... eventually he devoted himself to the cause by hunting for Nazi submarines in a wooden fishing boat. Which is either a grandiose display of manliness, or insanity... take your choice.

He was 46 and 4F with all of his medical problems. It was pretty heroic of him to try to hunt for submarines in the coastal waters but ultimately it is a bit quixotic, and I think he realized that. Which is why he joined a newspaper to cover the war as a correspondent and be closer to the action.