Pub licensing and discrimination

[LitNetIsGreat]

I recently came across a pub sign that read:

"Strictly no children after 7pm - parents with children will be asked to leave at 7pm. No children allowed in the bar area at any time. Strictly no prams allowed on the premises."

Now I know that it is entirely up to the landlord of a pub in the UK to allow or not to allow children in the pub, but what about prams? Can a landlord say no to prams? Is this not discriminating parents with younger children? If not, can a landlord say no to wheelchairs in the same way? How about black people, homosexuals?

I've googled around and not found the answer to this, only that landlords can serve who they want, but surely they can't discriminate in terms of race and sexuality, in the same way they seemingly can with parents with prams?

This not the first time I have seen the "ban on the pram" and in the same town as well. I remember seeing a sign that read 'No dogs. No children. No prams.' This is usually followed by a ridiculous welcoming message - "a warm welcome found within" or something, the one above read "come a stranger, leave a friend" (unless you are a parent apparently).

I'm not really interested in debating whether "pubs are or are not fit places for children" sort of thing, or that I like loads of kids in pubs, I'm just interested in the legality of the situation. Any thoughts or opinions on it?

[Lokasenna]

I rather liked a sign I saw outside a pub once:

'Unattended children will be given Espresso and Gin'

Horribly illegal, of coures - but I like the sentiments. As for the legality of children in pubs... well... one could make the argument that minors shouldn't be in a public house anyway... but I suppose it must be the landlord's decision.

Actually, I wish restaurants would put limits on children, or have designated family areas - there's nothing that ruins a good evening quite like a load of noisy, feral children running around screaming.

[Delta40]

Mmmm. Do gay bars ban heterosexuals? How do you prove you're gay to gain entry? I can't stand kids ruining my meal but the little blighters exist and it hasn't occurred to me that they should be made lepers of society. Why not have a 'we were here first' policy so whoever is on the premises first has the right to complain but not if they arrived after the person they want to whinge about. The fairest remedy for them is to bugger off. I've seen a manager use this tactic before and called it aussie rules and then everyone shut up and went back to their respective corners.

On another note, Aussie pubs bear no relation whatsoever to English pubs and one would be mad to take their kids to one since nearly every bar has a topless barmaid and they'd probably get sexually molested in the toilet.

[LitNetIsGreat]

Yes I'm not keen on feral children running around of course, but I wondered about the legality of it. Though it just struck me as totally discriminating and I have to admit it annoyed me very much.

I'm fine with landlords saying no children in pubs but to say "strictly no prams" I thought was pretty anal and I wouldn't go in the pub on principle, for me it is not at all far away from saying 'no wheelchairs' or 'no shopping baskets' 'no big bags' pretty pathetic I thought.

I remember when our kids were young and we came across that 'No dogs. No children. No prams' sign in a pub on holiday once - same place, Scarborough (we hate children). Keep in mind we were hoping to go in for a quick bite to eat at 5/6pm on that occasion, not that we were out drinking at 10pm or anything. Of course the pram days are long gone now thank god, but I remember how difficult it was and how annoyed we were to be treated like lepers from not just that pub but many in that town. so I was annoyed on principle at coming across that notice. I wish I had taken a photo but a classic I thought:

"Strictly no children after 7pm - parents with children will be asked to leave at 7pm. No children allowed in the bar area at any time. Strictly no prams allowed on the premises. Come a stranger, leave a friend."

Unbelievable!

On behalf of decent people who happened to commit the crime of having a baby I was disgusted. I've posted a short negative review Tripadvisor as this annoyed me.

[Delta40]

What about if they say 'No Obese People?' Just the beautiful folk thanks...especially at a tourist destination lol.

[Darcy88]

Parents should be encouraged to bring their children with them to the pub to remind the younger single intoxicated patrons of the potential consequences of casual sexual relations.

[LitNetIsGreat]

Mmmm. Do gay bars ban heterosexuals? How do you prove you're gay to gain entry? I can't stand kids ruining my meal but the little blighters exist and it hasn't occurred to me that they should be made lepers of society. Why not have a 'we were here first' policy so whoever is on the premises first has the right to complain but not if they arrived after the person they want to whinge about. The fairest remedy for them is to bugger off. I've seen a manager use this tactic before and called it aussie rules and then everyone shut up and went back to their respective corners.

On another note, Aussie pubs bear no relation whatsoever to English pubs and one would be mad to take their kids to one since nearly every bar has a topless barmaid and they'd probably get sexually molested in the toilet.

I'm pretty sure that hetrosexuals are allowed in gay bars. I can't say I'm an expert on gay bars but I'm 99.9% certain this is not an issue.

I didn't know Aussie pubs were like that! The majority of English pubs I think cater for children and families in some way, apart from crowed city centre pubs of course where you wouldn't take children in anyway. This pub was on the coast in a family resort - virtually opposite a fun fair! So you would think they would want to cater for families, especially during the holiday season. Regardless, this is not my problem, my itch was the sign for no prams as expressed above.

[papayahed]

Prams cause a hazard. There are probably requirements on aisle space. If there's a fire you don't want to be tripping over prams in your rush to the door.

[Ecurb]

When I used to live in Arizona, some cities had zoning laws outlawing children. They were retirement communities, and in endless letters to the editor old geezers would rage about noisy big wheels, and how "we geezers deserve our peace and quiet."

Yes, many Arizonans hate the gay laughter and happy shouting of young children, and outlaw them from residing in certain towns. We can only guess the attitudes of these same age-bigots toward kitty cats, puppy dogs, and giant panda cubs.

[Delta40]

Is it unreasonable though that certain groups wish to cater socially to the exclusion of others?

[LitNetIsGreat]

What about if they say 'No Obese People?' Just the beautiful folk thanks...especially at a tourist destination lol.

Ha, ha, yes exactly. It appears that this would be fine as it is totally down to the landlord's discretion according to what I have read.

I know that many landlords try to ban the 'chavy' element by saying 'no trainers or caps allowed.' This sort of thing it widespread in city centres, along with 'no football shirts.' Really when you think about it the more and more it becomes pretty pathetic. I wonder if Pele just happened to be walking by and wanted a drink, if they would make an exception or say 'sorry mate, you are wearing a Brazil shirt.'

Prams cause a hazard. There are probably requirements on aisle space. If there's a fire you don't want to be tripping over prams in your rush to the door.

That's fine but so do big bags and wheelchairs, so would you ban them too? The 'no prams' here is not a result of concerns about fire safety as anyone can gather from the sign, but about the landlord's personal dislike of children. That much is clear. If not why not say 'no prams, wheelchairs or large items allowed on the premises at any time as a result of fire hazard'. Clearly they just don't like children but at the same time want some of the trade. You can't have it both ways. Also prams can be folded, so that's not even a defence.

[Ecurb]

When I lived in Chicago, bars had closing times of either 1:00 or 3:00. The only bar near where I lived that stayed open until 3:00 was a gay Mexican bar. To us benighted gringos, going in to buy six-packs to go was always an unenviable adventure, and we used to have backgammon tournaments to see who would be forced to make the beer run. I don't know what the bar was like earlier in the evening (when other liquor options were available to us), but between 1:00 and 3:00 it was very strange. The generally staid and macho nature of Mexican-American culture was flip-flopped, and Mexican men of all ages were routinely making out in the bar while we made our purchases and fled from the double culture shock.

[Ecurb]

Is it unreasonable though that certain groups wish to cater socially to the exclusion of others?

"Unreasonable" isn't really the correct word. "Unfriendly", "unsociable", "nasty", "bigoted" and "mean-spirited" spring to mind as more accurate descriptions.

[Delta40]

"Unreasonable" isn't really the correct word. "Unfriendly", "unsociable", "nasty", "bigoted" and "mean-spirited" spring to mind as more accurate descriptions.

Yes but birds of feather stick together. We're famously known to gravitate toward groups which we fit into. I see in the US there is a growing trend in dance clubs exclusively for obese people. I can see the sense in that on several levels.

[stlukesguild]

When I was a youngster myself I remember that children were not permitted in bars... or in many restaurants where alcohol was served. The idea, obviously, was to not set poor examples for the young 'uns. I personally am all for no children in bars. I am for a venue where adults can let off steam and be adults without having to worry about behaving in front of children. A couple of Christmases ago the faculty of my school met in a local bar/restaurant for our annual Christmas party. We teach in one of the roughest inner-city schools and as a result our faculty is made up of a number of individuals as rowdy as the kids. A couple of the teachers got truly sh**-faced and began singing out pornographic versions of Christmas carols or just yelling out a continual stream of profanity. Not far away were several tables where families were dining. One of the parents finally complained. In response, the most belligerent of our staff stood up, raised her glass, and intoned loudly, "That's why you don't take your f....'in kids to an f....'in bar!"

Honestly, I am all for banning children at restaurants... or setting aside special seating for them. Returning to my younger days, I remember that as a child eating out in public it was made clear to us that we follow the rule, "Children only speak when spoken to." When a younger child or baby began to make a fuss, one of the parents would rapidly take the child to the bathroom or the car until he or she was calmed down. My thinking is that when I go out to dine at a nicer establishment I am paying not only for the food but also the atmosphere. My idea of a fine dining experience isn't a bunch of jabbering, yelling, and caterwauling children with parents too stupid to either learn how to control their kids... or leave them at home.

The reality is that it isn't just the exclusive gated communities that expect a degree of decorum, peace, and quiet... it is a great majority of communities. There are zoning laws that limit noise levels and other aspects of how and what you may do on your property.

I'm going to channel Emil here and suggest that none of this would be a problem if more people simply had a sense of respect for others.