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Thread: Buddhist Ontology and Practice

  1. #16
    Registered User miyako73's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lawpark View Post
    Isn't Buddhist "ontology" any oxymoron? Ontology is a study of Being, while Buddhism's fundamental position is there is no Self.
    Where did you get the idea that "being" is "self"? "Being" is a process of becoming or existing. "Self" is just one of the results of such process. Buddhist Ontology is not an oxymoron. Being, as a substance, is meaningless. It has to be a result of a process of becoming or existing for it to gain a meaning. Like the case of "human being", it is the result of the process of becoming or existing as a human. "Sentient being" is another example that is related to becoming conscious or existing with sentience or awareness.
    Last edited by miyako73; 04-21-2012 at 03:52 AM.

  2. #17
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    Yes, as I understand it, ontology is the study of the nature of existence, being, and reality; two fundamental ideas of Buddhist ontology, I would say, are that form (being) is emptiness, and emptiness is form (expounded in the Heart Sutra) and the idea of dependent origination, or inter-being, that all phenomena are arising together in a mutually interdependent web of cause and effect.

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    TobeFrank Paulclem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NikolaiI View Post
    Yes, sure. All I meant was, it struck me how you reacted to what he said. To me, what he said was very good; to live naturally, as a natural expression of oneself - it's very much like many Buddhist masters. I mentioned Alan Watts because of how it reminded me of something he once said. He was giving a talk and mused, "Why do I give a lecture on philosophy? I suppose it is the same reason a bird chirps." (More or less, as that is a rough paraphrasing). What JamCrackers said was reminiscent of this in my mind.

    See: Bankei as well.


    I see. I was thinking generally too, but with the sense of interdependance.

    How do you interpret "the unborn mind?" I've had a quick scan of a webpage on Bankei, and I wondered what you thought.

  4. #19
    TobeFrank Paulclem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafolini View Post
    "Compassion can only be found in love because love is a natural passion in everyone. But if love is abandoned, in anything else there is only empathy; not enough." C A Cafolini
    We're regarding it in a precise definition according to the 4 Immeasurables.

    The definition of love in Buddhism is: wanting others to be happy.

    The definition of compassion is: wanting others to be free from suffering.


    In those terms they are different, but there may well be other ways of looking at them.

    http://viewonbuddhism.org/immeasurab...rejoicing.html

    This link has the definition.
    Last edited by Paulclem; 04-21-2012 at 10:22 AM.

  5. #20
    Registered User miyako73's Avatar
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    Also, it is not true that the existence of self is denied in Buddhism. Non-self is the foundation of Buddhism because it goes against the idea of self that causes suffering, chaos, imbalance. You cannot separate the cause from the effect and vice versa.

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    I've given it a lot of thought, and I don't have any interpretation.

    But basically, unborn mind is untainted awareness. Bankei teaches, we turn our mind from Buddha-mind into fighting-spirits, when we cling and grasp, or when we are affronted, or so many other things. And then we go from one thought to another, all the while we are lost. But, he says, by resolving firmly to remain in the unborn mind, we can do so.

    "Whatever it is confronting you, let it be. As long as you do not pick up on it and react with bias, just remaining in the buddha mind and not transforming it into something else, then delusion cannot occur. This is constant abiding in the unconceived buddha mind."

    Yeah, I said that I don't have an interpretation because I really don't. Bankei speaks so clearly that even 400 years later, it comes across plain as day, and anything I might add would probably obscure it more than clarify, so that's why I am hesitant to give any interpretation. I did a lot of searching for good pages, as I have before, and as I have thought before, it would be really nice if all of his work were online. Alas it is not, but this is a decent page; http://www.dharmanet.org/Bankei.htm. Still, the book Unborn doesn't have a substitute. Also, it isn't very large, just a small, wonderful little white book, very easy to carry around with you.

    I really like this verse -

    "Unborn and imperishable
    Is the original mind.
    Earth, water, fire and wind—
    A temporary lodging for the night."
    Last edited by NikolaiI; 04-21-2012 at 04:54 AM.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by miyako73 View Post
    Also, it is not true that the existence of self is denied in Buddhism. Non-self is the foundation of Buddhism because it goes against the idea of self that causes suffering, chaos, imbalance. You cannot separate the cause from the effect and vice versa.
    Tara Brach addresses this in a dharma talk. She makes the good point that until there is a sense of self, non-self isn't the right thing to be focusing on, really.

  8. #23
    TobeFrank Paulclem's Avatar
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    I haven't read the book, but it seems to suggest the potential for a Buddha mind, which appears to be consistent with the potentiality, but not the manifestation, of the enlightened mind in an ordinary person.

    Unborn suggests gestation- waiting to be born at the right time - perhaps as a rsult of practice or karma. Just speculation though.

  9. #24
    TobeFrank Paulclem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by miyako73 View Post
    Also, it is not true that the existence of self is denied in Buddhism. Non-self is the foundation of Buddhism because it goes against the idea of self that causes suffering, chaos, imbalance. You cannot separate the cause from the effect and vice versa.
    It's related to the emptiness of the label - the self - and the two truths - conventional and ultimate reality.

    I think there is a denial of an independantly existent self, but I think your post implies that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paulclem View Post
    I haven't read the book, but it seems to suggest the potential for a Buddha mind, which appears to be consistent with the potentiality, but not the manifestation, of the enlightened mind in an ordinary person.

    Unborn suggests gestation- waiting to be born at the right time - perhaps as a rsult of practice or karma. Just speculation though.
    Well, Bankei talks primarily about how we all have original mind (unborn mind), and when we sit peacefully, with no distractions, then we are manifesting it. However, when we get swept away in thoughts, then we've changed it. Especially, thoughts based on defending the ego, or striking out, tend to turn it into a fighting spirit. That is the worst one, I believe. Thoughts based on craving tend to turn it into a hungry ghost.

    Fortunately I've got the book with me now; yesterday I was really wishing I had it. I couldn't find it for a few hours at home, in fact, as I'd left it in an unusual spot.

  11. #26
    TobeFrank Paulclem's Avatar
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    It reminds me of the Therevadan teaching on dharmas, or moments of mind to use the Mahayanan/ Tibetan term. One measure I've heard is sixy-six within a finger snap. These are moments that arise and decline which give the impression of life as a film rather than moments arising in dependance upon former moments.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by NikolaiI View Post
    I chose the title because I thought it was inclusive enough to cover most topics... I used the word ontology but perhaps should have used theory and practice. There's an article called "The Range of Buddhist Ontology" by Kenneth Inada.. at http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-PHIL/inada4.htm, but it is kind of lengthy.

    Buddhist logic is a little different from Western logic because it allows for the existence of paradox. Western logic generally has two possibilities; either something is, or it isn't. Buddhist logic has four: it is, it isn't, it is and is not, and it neither is, nor is not. In my life this comes second to things like practice, meditation, insight and so forth.
    I've read the article although I don't think I understood it entirely. I think ontology is important because it justifies the practice. Why should one meditate the way a Buddhist does? What benefit does one obtain from doing this? Why is it effective?

    There are many people who practice some form of meditation or mindfulness of the now, including Christians, Hindus, and a range of people who have no specific religious affiliation but could be called "spiritual", "intuitives", "mystics", or "psychics" among other things. They may each have a different ontology justifying their practices. Buddhists aren't the only ones who meditate.

    Here are some questions:

    1) Does Buddhism have a form of yoga, or physical discipline, associated with it? Meditation with the spine straight might be a kind of asana, but I suspect this physical practice is something peculiar to Hinduism. As the article says (page 264):

    The same format is seen in the Vedaanta system. To wit, it postulated the empirical self (aatman) bound up in the changing world, but when its purity is uncovered by virtue of yogic discipline. the self can rise above the impurities to become the greater self (AAtman) and thereby identify itself within the total nature of things (Brahman). This approach certainly was a great spiritual insight; it captured the imagination of the Indians and has enabled the dominant Hindu philosophy to thrive so powerfully up to the present day.

    I suspect yoga is irrelevant in Buddhist practice because of the denial of "the empirical self".

    2) How does Buddhism view near-death experiences? This is from the linked text (page 265):

    Even the Buddha denied life after death, the immortality of the soul, on the grounds that it would transgress and disregard the normal flow of existence. Thus, if immortality or permanence (eternality) is not to be experienced, then the concentration would have to be on the moment-to-moment existence. In this way, the great insight was not about permanent or eternal life, but on the microscopic behavior within momentary existence.

    I've asked this in other threads, but reading Thich Nhat Hanh, he seems puzzled how one could love "nirvana", which he views as corresponding to the Christian "God" in Going Home. Those with a positive near-death experience tell of a sense of acceptance and love that does not seem to be part of the Buddhist tradition.

    3) How does Buddhism view the origin of the universe? The article has the following quote from Buddhaghosa (page 273):

    Becoming's wheel reveals no known beginning;
    No maker, no experiencer there;
    Void with a twelvefold voidness, and nowhere
    It ever halts; for ever it is spinning.

    Modern 21st century science has established that the universe originated out of nothing about 13.73 billion years ago. How does Buddhist ontology reconcile itself with this? I know one can say that this is not important and one should be concerned about removing suffering, but the ontology justifies the means used to remove the suffering.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paulclem View Post
    It's related to the emptiness of the label - the self - and the two truths - conventional and ultimate reality.

    I think there is a denial of an independantly existent self, but I think your post implies that.
    Agreed.

    Would it be better to use "Buddhist Metaphysics" rather than "Buddhist Ontology", given the common association of "ontology" as a study of (independently existent) being?

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    Modern 21st century science has established that the universe originated out of nothing about 13.73 billion years ago. How does Buddhist ontology reconcile itself with this?
    Did suffering originate then, or before, or after? Something to think about.

  15. #30
    TobeFrank Paulclem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YesNo View Post
    I've read the article although I don't think I understood it entirely. I think ontology is important because it justifies the practice. Why should one meditate the way a Buddhist does? What benefit does one obtain from doing this? Why is it effective?

    There are many people who practice some form of meditation or mindfulness of the now, including Christians, Hindus, and a range of people who have no specific religious affiliation but could be called "spiritual", "intuitives", "mystics", or "psychics" among other things. They may each have a different ontology justifying their practices. Buddhists aren't the only ones who meditate.
    Why should one meditate the way a Buddhist does? What benefit does one obtain from doing this? Why is it effective?

    In the Tibetan tradition, meditation is defined as the contemplation of a virtuous object. Breathing meditation etc are regarded as preparatory practices.

    There are different emphases in different traditions though, and I wouldn't say one was better than another of course. Our teacher recently advocated adopting practices from different traditions if they are useful. It's a case of which suits you.

    As for why Buddhist meditation, this is done with the motivation generated by taking refuge. Otherwise it is not Buddhist. It's about inner motivation.

    Interesting questions.

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