A Question for Atheist or Anyone

[ShadowsCool]

I don't want this to become an all-out shouting match, matching one's belief's with another belief's. I feel that just endlessly misses the point.

What I want to know is, in your opinion, why would certain apostles of Christ go to their deaths, when they had a choice to denounce him? If what they purportedly witnessed (some first hand) or fabricated, then why would they willingly go to their deaths for a made-up story?

From all accounts I have read, some just had to denounce Christ and they would be spared death. Why would a sane person (supposing they were) die willingly for nothing?

Shadows

[Charles Darnay]

Forgive the tautology of this but it is because they were literally willing to die for their beliefs. Whether any individual (now or then) thinks their beliefs are accurate or completely fabricated, that doesn't matter. To the apostles (the faithful ones I guess) everything that is written is true, and to deny it would be a far worse fate than death. Many people throughout history, both great and small, have died for their beliefs, whatever they may have been.

[BienvenuJDC]

Forgive the tautology of this but it is because they were literally willing to die for their beliefs. Whether any individual (now or then) thinks their beliefs are accurate or completely fabricated, that doesn't matter. To the apostles (the faithful ones I guess) everything that is written is true, and to deny it would be a far worse fate than death. Many people throughout history, both great and small, have died for their beliefs, whatever they may have been.

To the Apostles...we are talking about THOSE who wrote it down. These were the eyewitnesses. They weren't just believing what they read. They were believing what they SAW.

[Charles Darnay]

To the Apostles...we are talking about THOSE who wrote it down. These were the eyewitnesses. They weren't just believing what they read. They were believing what they SAW.

Yes, but that is the contention isn't it? Were they strictly eye-witnesses - I have heard arguments for both "yes" and "no." But when I said that they believe in everything that is written, I did not mean to imply that they were reading it and not writing it - it was just my way of expressing what their beliefs are (what is written in the New Testament)

[BienvenuJDC]

Yes, but that is the contention isn't it? Were they strictly eye-witnesses - I have heard arguments for both "yes" and "no." But when I said that they believe in everything that is written, I did not mean to imply that they were reading it and not writing it - it was just my way of expressing what their beliefs are (what is written in the New Testament)

If you were writing about spectacular events (of eternal significance) that you witnessed yourself, would you believe them with complete certainty? Would you hold fast to those beliefs even if it would cost you your physical life in exchange for an eternal life? The original question is...Why would anyone sacrifice their lives for a lie?

[Varenne Rodin]

Personally, I'm not interested in the actions of apostles. I could say that I'm an apostle. I could write things down. I could go to my death swearing I'm right. People want to be believed. In the time of the apostles, life was pretty lame. Not much to do. Short lifespans. Who knows? What have they seen lately? That's what I care about. Where are the eye witnesses of God and Jesus? Is there video up on youtube? Hearsay is simply that. Testimony under duress is indicative of nothing. Were any of the apostles under the influence of hallucinogens? Were they pathological liars? There is no way of knowing. Your problem is that human beings are fallible. If you want to believe that the bible stories are true, cool. What does it matter to you if some people are unconvinced? Why seek the atheist opinion? You probably already know what it's going to be. EXTRAORDINARY claims require EXTRAORDINARY evidence. Until you get some, why not stop trying to drag us into the muck of your dogmatism?

Why did entire Greek civilizations go to war for their gods? Gods that have since been pretty much ruled out. It's a rallying cry.

[ShadowsCool]

What does it matter to you if some people are unconvinced? Why seek the atheist opinion? You probably already know what it's going to be. EXTRAORDINARY claims require EXTRAORDINARY evidence. Until you get some, why not stop trying to drag us into the muck of your dogmatism?

Why did your answer condescend my question. Maybe my innocent question struck a nerve?

I was asking a question. I just wanted to know an atheist point of view on it. As far as my muck of dogmatism, that's your opinion, not mine. I just wanted to know what people thought of that. That is how we learn things, no?

Why did entire Greek civilizations go to war for their gods? Gods that have since been pretty much ruled out. It's a rallying cry.

That to me is quite different then being in front of a judge and him saying, denounce Christ and I will let you go. But they choose a horrible death instead. See my point?

[BienvenuJDC]

In the time of the apostles, life was pretty lame. Not much to do. Short lifespans.

You're not a history major are you?

John lived to be in his 90s. The Roman Empire was connecting the cultures into a multicultural society of travel and commerce. There was SO much to do.

[Charles Darnay]

If you were writing about spectacular events (of eternal significance) that you witnessed yourself, would you believe them with complete certainty? Would you hold fast to those beliefs even if it would cost you your physical life in exchange for an eternal life? The original question is...Why would anyone sacrifice their lives for a lie?

The problem is that there are a few threads that have to be followed - because there are no strict "facts" here. Here is the way I personally view it.

Option 1:

The apostles did not actually witness first-hand the events described in the New Testament. Therefore, they were not lying but truly believed (to the point that they were willing to die for it) what they had written/what had happened.

Option 2:

The apostles witnessed the events first hand - everything they wrote was true and they were willing to die for their beliefs because they knew them to be true.

Option 3:

The apostles witnessed the events first hand - and stretched the truth, or extended it to the realm of metaphor. They were willing to die for their beliefs because their death would only further the legitimacy of Christianity.

Now, how do you extract a simple answer from three opposing views. Well, if we look at the New Testament - with the exception of a few "miracles" and the Resurrection itself, most of what is written is believable. That is, whatever you think of Jesus, it is entirely believable that he said what he is said to have said (sorry). Jesus said he was the son of god and they believed him - this is not so hard to accept.

As for the "miracles" and "Resurrection" - well it is hard to accept that they had empirical evidence of these.

So why wouldn't the apostles lie to save their lives? There is a reason - the realization that their deaths would mean the success of Christianity - but I personally believe that they (in their views) were not lying. Exaggerations, yes - but not lies.

[papayahed]

~

W a r n i n g

Please do not personalise your arguments.

Off-topic or inflammatory posts will be removed without further reminder.

~

[Charles Darnay]

In the time of the apostles, life was pretty lame. Not much to do. Short lifespans.

If only the Colosseum had been built 100 years earlier - we might still be worshiping Jupiter! (actually this would make an interesting alternate-reality story. Kind of the Fahrenheit 451 idea of keeping people constantly entertained so they don't come up with questions, or new thoughts.)

[papayahed]

I don't want this to become an all-out shouting match, matching one's belief's with another belief's. I feel that just endlessly misses the point.

What I want to know is, in your opinion, why would certain apostles of Christ go to their deaths, when they had a choice to denounce him? If what they purportedly witnessed (some first hand) or fabricated, then why would they willingly go to their deaths for a made-up story?

From all accounts I have read, some just had to denounce Christ and they would be spared death. Why would a sane person (supposing they were) die willingly for nothing?

Shadows

People do crazy things, take for example the Heaven's Gate group, Charles Mansion's "family", and Jonestown just to name a few.

[Varenne Rodin]

That to me is quite different then being in front of a judge and him saying, denounce Christ and I will let you go. But they choose a horrible death instead. See my point?

Nope.

[ShadowsCool]

Remind me never to ask another question again

[Charles Darnay]

Remind me never to ask another question again

Nothing good ever comes of it

But let me put this hypothetical question to you....

You are told that the Bible is pure fiction, that God never existed, that you must publicly denounce everything written in the Bible, that you cannot talk about, write about, promote in any way, display in any way a belief that reflects Christianity. You must teach your children evolution and explain that the scientific view of the world is the only one. You cannot celebrate any holidays. Failure to do any of this will result in your horrible death - which would you choose?