Mysticism : A Truth , A Reality, a path

[MANICHAEAN]

Dear Usman

I cannot resist to enquire, that now you have completed the presentation of this tome, will you be moving onto another?

Regards this thread, my own comments you have been aware of from previously; namely the imperative to keep your mind open to the belief of others. I once, when in Saudi Arabia, enquired of one of my associates: "Why, if in the UK we allow tolerance of other religions, do you not allow the same in KSA."

His reply: "Because Islam is the true religion." In other words, he did not even understand the question.

Put in a more light hearted way: The King of Saudi, once asked Margaret Thatcher when the mosques in London could use loudspeakers for the call to prayer. Her response: "When I hear church bells in Riyadh!"

Regards
M.

[usman.khawar]

Well manichaein! we cant judge religion by socalled followers. i dont think that in any muslim country where the true spirit of islam is being practiced nor in any western conutry following the exact teachings of Jesus christ. saudia is also in my view presenting a tribal type of government but not islam.

once bertrand russel was asked by a person about God, He relpied i dont believe in the thing whose data is not available. the person asked him whether he read the quran? he replied i read bible etc but not quran coz all gospal books are alike.!

without reading giving comments is literary unjustice consisting prejudice.
i can now say with full surity that quran is not like the other books. reasons i have shared in the tome.

well no, i have no other book at this time to share.

thanks for your patience once again anyway but now expecting questions ..

[usman.khawar]

the book i shared with you guys is also available now on internet at my teacher's oficial website. link is given below

http://www.alamaat.com/TheArgument.php
Good luck for those who can read urdu as some of books consisting upon his lectures are also available in pdf format... a great trasure of knowlege.

[usman.khawar]

Prof.Ahmad Rafique Akhtar
Introduction By: Mr. Syed Anjum M. Gillani


Professor Ahmad Rafique Akhtar is a distinguished Muslim scholar of Modern Era. The enlightment of his thoughts has heralded the dawn of a new age in the present world. Due to his acquaintance with books, intricate queries in his wits; he studied literature, philosophy, Mythologies and all contemporary subjects during his student life. His tendency of intensive study led him to think profoundly about God. This inquisitiveness of mind continued its progress towards the logical end. He was gifted with a philosophical approach which is not satisfied without scrutinizing the process of intellectual capacity, objectively according to scientific principles. At the stage of his career choice, his exuberance and intelligence reached its pinnacle when he was faced with the most problematical query of its nature,” Does God exist or Does he not ”, “Am I free or to be accountable in front of an unseen divine force.”

He started the journey of his mental investigation from doubt and denial. The center of attention and the direction of his study and meditation took eight years of his life; he dedicated all his investigation and struggle to find a reason to deny the existence of God. His thesis was very simple, if a man commits thousands of mistakes he still remains a human being, but if we find even one mistake of God, He can not be a God. Thus he declared the criterion to find God; he had to uncover only one error in God’s words,” The Quran”. All his explorations, scientific investigations and academic researches and findings were rendered futile when he found that his efforts lead him to the confirmation of the Quran and existence of God. Consequently he made God his first and foremost priority. He was already a teacher (Professor of English in M.A.O college for 18 years) but the focus of his teaching had now diverted to his findings about God. He believes that God has to be the top priority of every single intellectual curiosity.

[usman.khawar]

just copying the answer here as there are some points in the answer regarding what i more wanted to share in this thread as weill..


Originally Posted by Paulclem
. There are millions of Buddhists and Hindus who believe in reincarnation. Is it any more ridiculous than a religion that claims a compassionate God exists when there is so much human and animal suffering in the world? ..................

I have answered and explained this in the thread " Why Good God promote sufferings"

it is not necesary that quantity always gives quality. christinas are more than budhists, even socalled muslims are more than budhists. if millions of people are going on wrong side and one is on the right side. than how will we decide the right way? no doubt with reason and argument. i'll follow the one. set aside the glasses of budhism or every religion then think again.this is the way my dear i used and reached at islam which explained each and everything intellectuallly in very natural and normal way and asnwered every question of human intellectual curosity..

But the very important question which is also another thread that "what is the need of religion?" what is the def. of religion? i beleive now that religion consisted of those minimum things which can lead you in the nearness of God. which can minimize frustration and fears of ur inner world so that u can easlity move on towards Lord. there is no other use of religion. religion teach you how to pass life to be successful in attaining balance so that you can easily proceed to God. Balance's definition " the state of mind where there is no grief nor frustration"

All this journey towards Lord according to my another beloved teacher Syed Ali Bin Usman Hajvery [who have more knowledge than my beloved teacher(Professor ahmad who is also the student of above one) i introduced with u guys] he said "all journey towards Lord is to move on from one state of mind to another!" needs knowledge more knoweldge.
Anyway if i could found nearness in other religions other than Islam i would follow but i failed i couldnt. islam was the only choice remained for me as i got all my answers through it.

I came to know its very easy, the way. islam is the most easiest way, than rememberance is the bigest thing, remembrance of Lord through his names with love, with the understanding that He is my 1st priority of my intellect with commitment that no day should passed by without His remembrance even we start it from minimum time like 5 min, and 3rdly in which God himself help you is to read ur self. knowing ur self.

Those who think that its a difficult path! God forgive them i went so easily! Moin ud chisti...

Religion is nothing but set of those minimum things which are neceessary for your journey to the nearness of Lord. A person who dont have any wish for the nearness for God what is the use of religion? this could b my question for u guys what do u think about it. a person who dont have any wish for the nearness of God what is the use of religion for him? No use! absolutely not! he should not quarrel upon religions for sure.

thanks....

[usman.khawar]

a person who dont have any wish for the nearness of God what is the use of religion for him? i really need to know what people think about this..
plz discuss n comments ..

[MANICHAEAN]

Partly your own fault Usman.

Sorry, but when others raised questions you referred them elsewhere or said wait till I've finished.

[Paulclem]

Transfered from another thread.

..Paul what if Man dont impose God's system on earth? nor understand His given systems?

Putting aside the question of whether it is God's law or not, I think there's a political aspect to the qustion. This comes in with the interpretation and the extension of the law.

In the past, what has been claimed as God's law has resulted in intransigence and cultural practices that don't seem to have any purpose but control. For example: there are different rules about women's clothing, depending upon where you are; there are different interpretations about whether homosexuals are acceptable or not; there are different interpretations of whether contraception is allowed; about which day is holy or for particular purposes; about what kinds of food are allowed. etc, etc.

Quite aside from the existence of God is the question of how one can decide what God's law actally is. The religions concerned with the questions above - the different sects of Christians, Jews, and Muslims - will claim that their interpretation is God's law.

The adoption of one precludes the other. We are now in the situation in the Christian church where rifts are appearing precisely because of this. The same has happened in other religions too.

So there's a problem with which given system.

I also think there's a problem with the word "impose". How can belief be imposed upon anyone? I suppose that's why we have the secular law, because it is very unclear which law is God's, and what happens when some accept it and others don't.

[usman.khawar]

Transfered from another thread.

..Paul what if Man dont impose God's system on earth? nor understand His given systems?

Putting aside the question of whether it is God's law or not, I think there's a political aspect to the qustion. This comes in with the interpretation and the extension of the law.

In the past, what has been claimed as God's law has resulted in intransigence and cultural practices that don't seem to have any purpose but control. For example: there are different rules about women's clothing, depending upon where you are; there are different interpretations about whether homosexuals are acceptable or not; there are different interpretations of whether contraception is allowed; about which day is holy or for particular purposes; about what kinds of food are allowed. etc, etc.

Quite aside from the existence of God is the question of how one can decide what God's law actally is. The religions concerned with the questions above - the different sects of Christians, Jews, and Muslims - will claim that their interpretation is God's law.

The adoption of one precludes the other. We are now in the situation in the Christian church where rifts are appearing precisely because of this. The same has happened in other religions too.

So there's a problem with which given system.

I also think there's a problem with the word "impose". How can belief be imposed upon anyone? I suppose that's why we have the secular law, because it is very unclear which law is God's, and what happens when some accept it and others don't.

replace the word impose with some suitable one. but u know world major countries did many experiences with different systems but failed. my whole tome was about it that which book referred God's authentic book which is saved from human mixing. which even one statements is not wrong. we can have systems from that book.which are directly from God.


Paul's point is very well answered and explained by darcy. "Being born is setting out to sea and if that sea is without ripple, without wave or tumult.......what's the point? " and also " if God created a crystal palace utopia then life would suck. Without evil life would suck. Indeed, without suffering and without evil life would cease" this is what i have already wrote. but these wordings are much better than mine which darcy used to interprete this view. What darcy if we replace the word suck with stuck ?

we cant say anything senseless without knowledge. i think i have shared a story or gave hint of that from quran about Moses and khizer. When Moses asked God in little pride that on earth is there anyone who have more knowledge then me? God suggested him to meet with khizer. he met him and asked him" whether i can walk with you to learn that knowlegde which u have" ? khizer replied you cant walk me coz u would nt hold patience! you are unable to make sense about the things which happens around me. Moses insisted. khizer said on one condition you can go with me that is you will not question me. Moses gave his words! They start their journey. They reached at river and aksed a poor professional boatman to drop them on the other side of the river, and sat in the boat. When they were leaving khizer made some holes in the new ship of poor boat man. Moses wondered and could not stop himself to make a question “why did u make holes in the only ship of poor boat man?” khizer taunt him that he was not supposed to make a question no matter how much senseless things happened. Moses was curious but revised his promise to continue his journey with khizer to learn what he got. They continued and reached at a place where some kids were playing. Khizer killed a child with no apparent reason. Moses now could not control himself and burst in wonder “why did u kill an innocent boy” this was totally sense less for Moses that boy was the only son of his parents. The same dialogue was spoken and moses said that give me last chance I’ll not ask question again and once more time they continued and reached at a village. Khizer asked some food from the dwellers but they refused to give strangers any compensation. Khizer now started to rebuild a wall of a plot which was about to fell. Moses helped him and when they finished, khizer step forward to leave the village. Moses was again surprised he caught the arm of khizer and asked why did not you ask for food again as wages?

Khizer stopped and said to moses “you and me cannot walk together” and here khizer unveiled the secret of patience “how can u keep patience without knowledge” if u dont have knowlegde you cannot keep patience.

Before leaving he also told him the reasons of his acts which were directly commanded and directed by God. On the otherside of the river there was a new cruel king who was snatching the new boats to make his naval fllet for deep waters so I made holes. That kid was the child of faithful couple, this kid would make trouble not only for himself but also would be caused to damage the faith of his parents. Now I killed him, his parents would keep patience that God does always good, in the reward God give them more children which would prove blessings for his parents. That kid would also be dwel in paradise for eternity. The last act, that plot belongs to a noble man who prayed while dying that o my lord, when my children reached at the age of maturity then the treasure which he buried under that wall would open to them.

i have a verse in mind about it. La hola wla quwata illa billa, beautiful and mind opening verse to understand the intention system , suffering and blessings. which also clarify the point what devil's work is, how many basics powers in the universe etc.. will write soon..

[Paulclem]

but u know world major countries did many experiences with different systems but failed. my whole tome was about it that which book referred God's authentic book which is saved from human mixing. which even one statements is not wrong. we can have systems from that book.which are directly from God.

So you're saying that God's law is Muslim, and originates in the Koran.

world major countries did many experiences with different systems but failed.

And you're saying that other books are not valid and failed. Which books do these include?

So, taking the Koran as embodying God's law, which Islamic tradition is the correct one?

[usman.khawar]

the whole book is asking which is the incorrect one ..

yes i m saying that all systems failed which was orginated by human intellect like socialism, communism etc..

all books were from God including quran. all prophets were from a single God. there is no question for me like yours God and my God. if there would be two Gods in the universe then this universe cant move ahead in the normal way in which its going on. isnt it ?

Well dear before taking some laws or systems from God. i beleive we should 1st of all solve the basic question. is there any God? ... the best way i found is what i have explained earlier that is we should just check the books from God, God should be perfect in his knowledge. He should know each n everything. if He makes a single mistake i m not ready to accept Him as God. His argument should be the solid one.Reasons, arguments, scientific explanatios cannot be neglected. beside social and moral instructions, quran is also full of scientific things which scientist are today exploring. before criticising on moral or social instructions, is it not necessary that we should see and examine about the scientific oneS? whether God is right or wrong? is He have enough intellect to guide us? this make sense to me that if there is God then he must have more knoweledge than me and i must admit that His suggestions or instructions are in my benifit. just as we do with the children. if Lord make this invention(universe, earth) then there must be a manual. that can b only a book. so its upon us we should try to find which book is the correct one. this could be the proof of God existence as well and also the guide for humanity.

[Paulclem]

the whole book is asking which is the incorrect one ..

yes i m saying that all systems failed which was orginated by human intellect like socialism, communism etc..

all books were from God including quran. all prophets were from a single God. there is no question for me like yours God and my God. if there would be two Gods in the universe then this universe cant move ahead in the normal way in which its going on. isnt it ?

Well dear before taking some laws or systems from God. i beleive we should 1st of all solve the basic question. is there any God? ... the best way i found is what i have explained earlier that is we should just check the books from God, God should be perfect in his knowledge. He should know each n everything. if He makes a single mistake i m not ready to accept Him as God. His argument should be the solid one.Reasons, arguments, scientific explanatios cannot be neglected. beside social and moral instructions, quran is also full of scientific things which scientist are today exploring. before criticising on moral or social instructions, is it not necessary that we should see and examine about the scientific oneS? whether God is right or wrong? is He have enough intellect to guide us? this make sense to me that if there is God then he must have more knoweledge than me and i must admit that His suggestions or instructions are in my benifit. just as we do with the children. if Lord make this invention(universe, earth) then there must be a manual. that can b only a book. so its upon us we should try to find which book is the correct one. this could be the proof of God existence as well and also the guide for humanity.

Christianity was undermined by this very question with Darwinism, and the clear information that the world was much older than was claimed in the the Bible, or by bible interpreters.

I wouldn't say that socialism has failed as such in the way that communism has. Socialist politics still underpin poitical parties looking for redistribution of incomes.

There are also modes of thought like Humanism, which compete with religious thought.

[usman.khawar]

Partly your own fault Usman.

Sorry, but when others raised questions you referred them elsewhere or said wait till I've finished.

is it bad manners if i said that let me finish what i have started? giving reference for those quries i have already explained ?

no you should not be sorry if its my fault my dear or this sorry means that u dont like to comments or discuss about the question i asked ?

[Paulclem]

is it bad manners if i said that let me finish what i have started? giving reference for those quries i have already explained ?

no you should not be sorry if its my fault my dear or this sorry means that u dont like to comments or discuss about the question i asked ?

The forum boards don't work like that. A question/ answer, proposition/ discussion model is the best fit. Otherwise, as has been shown, it's difficult to keep track of and sustain discussion.

Perhaps the blog is the best place.

[MANICHAEAN]

Thank you Paulclem. I'm really having trouble sometime explaining the basics to Usman. If it had been a short story, then fine, wait till the end to comment. But when an entire tome is published its a different matter.

I had at one stage been tempted to publish the Old Testament daily, page by page & refer all discussion till 2014, but thought better of it!