Yes but the question of whether punctuation is important in poetry is the issue in this forum. Perhaps we've misunderstood each other and are talking at cross purposes. I'm a stickler for punctuation and applying it in poetry is an element of the art itself since as you say we should have mastered the language, with all its remedial stuff. To omit such things as line breaks, punctuation and capital letters is to admit one's own lack of mastery.
Before sunlight can shine through a window, the blinds must be raised - American Proverb
What the hell does that mean?Originally Posted by My2cents
lol. Meaning a shopping list is the lowest
Before sunlight can shine through a window, the blinds must be raised - American Proverb
If I were writing poetry, I'd write more or less in full sentences with all the obligatory punctuations and orthography. I kind of doubt however it'll be as good as William Carlos Williams' "Red Wheelbarrow."
It means they're not easy to write unlike your fatuous remark.
That's one poem I don't like (http://www.poemhunter.com/poem/the-red-wheelbarrow/) but it is an example of line breaks splitting up the following sentence:
So much depends upon a red wheelbarrow glazed with rain water beside the white chickens.
If I put the sentence into MS Word there are no grammar check complaints. So, it passes my grammar check condition. Then comes the next test which really isn't part of this thread on punctuation--does it say anything interesting? I would claim that it doesn't. Of course, I'm no expert.
My blog: https://frankhubeny.blog/
Funnily enough, now you've written that without line breaks, I prefer it to the original poem. It's more immediate, somehow - in fact this is the first time I've had a clear image of the whole scene in my head.
I don't think the poem is a masterpiece; it's famous because it's original and provocative, not because it's a manifestation of great artistic skill.
Does it say anything interesting? It conveys those moments of inexplicable visionary intensity we sometimes feel in response to scenes or stimuli. In these situations, we "feel" a meaning, but we can't say what the meaning is.
As I say, I prefer it without the line breaks, which seem arbitrary to me, and disturb the rhythm of the sentence. Of course, if he'd written it without line breaks, publishers would have said, "Get out of here, that's not a poem!"
While we're on the subject of William Carlos Williams, I think his poem "This Is Just To Say" does benefit from unconventional punctuation. Why does he not punctuate the last stanza, which would make it look like this? -
Forgive me.
They were delicious
- so sweet
and so cold.
Something is lost here - the punctuation makes the poet seem rational and reasonable, really wanting to explain himself. The actual poem, on the other hand, produces a trance-like impression, emphasising the sense that the poet just couldn't help himself:
Forgive me
they were delicious
so sweet
and so cold.
Obviously, the double meanings of the words "sweet" and "cold" are the key to this poem, and the lack of punctuation emphasises the sense of ambiguity. I think it's brilliant.
Linebreaking is a form of punctuation.
He is probably going to get his butt kicked for eating those plums.
I see the "sweet" and "cold" might be a way to characterize his wife as well. Prior to eating the plums, she might be "sweet". Afterwards, perhaps "cold".
However, what I have done in the above paragraph is added meaning that was not in the poem to complete it. Nowhere does he mention a wife or that she was even happy being with him before he ate the plums. These additions are what the poem lacks, but I would claim should have included.
Regarding the punctuation, in this case the poem could be read aloud to someone and so they wouldn't even need to see it on the page. I think where the issue of punctuation matters is where the poem makes little sense without viewing it or attempting to read it.
Yes, it could be considered a form of punctuation defining that as any visual way the words are placed on a page.
I think the issue with punctuation and, especially non-metrical, poetry goes back to the old manual typewriter in which you inserted a piece of paper. The range of formatting that such a manual typewriter could make with a poem is considered part of the poem. So if the poet does a carriage return, that is part of the poem although it would not be part of the prose written on that typewriter.
Any other formatting seen today such as font or color would not be considered part of the poem and it would be left to the editor who prints the poem or displays it on the internet to decide how best to do that.
My blog: https://frankhubeny.blog/
Hm. I don't buy that, to be honest. The poem doesn't need completing. The meaning is quite clear: it's making a statement about the poet, not about his partner (or whoever the owner of the plums is). If you add in commentary on the partner, you are missing the point.He is probably going to get his butt kicked for eating those plums.
I see the "sweet" and "cold" might be a way to characterize his wife as well. Prior to eating the plums, she might be "sweet". Afterwards, perhaps "cold".
However, what I have done in the above paragraph is added meaning that was not in the poem to complete it. Nowhere does he mention a wife or that she was even happy being with him before he ate the plums. These additions are what the poem lacks, but I would claim should have included.
It's really very subtle, because the poet goes immediately from apologising, to recalling the deliciousness of the plums: he can't even think about the other person long enough to properly apologise. The tone of the poem is both "sweet" and "cold": there is a calculated charm to the poet's confession, but the last lines show that he feels no real remorse for his misdemeanour. The words "sweet" and "cold" seem to pop into his head as a subconcious verdict on his own behaviour.
Thrice NO! The punctuation and line breaks are crucial. YES, you can understand the meaning of the sentences if you hear the poem read aloud, but the punctuation and line breaks add another level of subtlety, and turn it into a poem.Regarding the punctuation, in this case the poem could be read aloud to someone and so they wouldn't even need to see it on the page. I think where the issue of punctuation matters is where the poem makes little sense without viewing it or attempting to read it.
It's essential, in order to properly appreciate poetry, to concentrate not just on MEANING but also on EFFECT. In other words, you have to "listen", not simply read; you have to watch what feelings and images surface from your subconscious as you read.
Above all, the reader shouldn't rush into assuming they understand a poem. If they interpret it as a bunch of easily comprehensible but uninteresting statements, maybe they have missed something.
Note to moderators: I notice that two of my posts have been amalgamated into a single post (#21). Is this normal practice? I wanted to make two separate, easily-digestible points, not cram everything I had to say into a single long post. Is this not approved of?
I can't remember at the moment how it was punctuated but I do remember the fact that he ate the plums before breakfast.
I agree with you about the need to use the subconscious, and we do that without really being conscious of it.
My blog: https://frankhubeny.blog/
Hey, it's up to the writer.
OK perhaps a bad example.
Then what about Ezra Pound's "In the Station of the Metro." I mean does it really matter that he's putting a period at the end of the poem or not? (strict punctuation rules would dictate no period as the poem isn't even a sentence.) And according to MS Word, the poem is grammatically and punctuation wise a no-no.
As to "The Red Wheelbarrow," I think it's a fine poem with an indelible imagery which in itself is enough in a poem of what--21 syllables(?)
Last edited by My2cents; 04-01-2012 at 02:20 PM.
agreed.
it may never try
but when it does it sigh
it is just that
good
it fly
I think the punctuation is up to the publisher, not the writer. For most poems the writer and publisher are the same person. We write the poem and then we publish it on forum like Lit Net. When someone else publishes our poetry, then the roles split.
To look at this differently, consider the following poem:
Mary had a little lamb.
Its fleece was white as snow
And everywhere that Mary went,
The lamb was sure to go.
Is the following a different poem just because it is presented differently?
mary had a little lamb its fleece was white as snow
and everywhere that mary went the lamb was sure to go
Or is the following a different poem?
MARY had a little lamb.
Itsfleecewas white as snow
and everywhere
that MARY went, the
lamb was sure to go.
My blog: https://frankhubeny.blog/
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