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Thread: Railing at Greatness: Why Critics, Educators, and Readers are so Touchy These Days

  1. #46
    Vincit Qui Se Vincit Virgil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sparrow6224 View Post

    Thank you so much, lo these many years later, for your close and high-octane reading of my essay.

    Vince Passaro
    This is quite kind of you to stop by Mr. Passaro. Thank you for taking the time.

    I would throw two remarks into the discussion that followed: one, I cannot emphasize enough, the problem is not political correctness, the problem is much larger than that and it is identical on both sides of the political correctness debate: the problem is wanting literature (and now, I'd add, even "facts") to be limited to that which confirms one's already established beliefs;
    Yes, that's at the core of the issue, though I'm not sure why you say both sides are at fault. I think the people who refuse to succumb to political correctness are only asking that a writer be taken in his totality. Certainly a writer of the pre PC world could very well be anti Semitic or racist, and if so it should be pointed out, though his art might rise above it. However one should see the total man, his humanity in the context of what I'll call the natural law of human decency, not just on whether he used a stereotype here or an off color word there.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JBI View Post
    And, by extension, even if it is racist, what effect is that of the work? And if it is an anti-slavery affirmation, what does that mean? You are writing on the reaction of contemporary readers, even if one is going to do what almost every critic and historian does and put the text and the acts within their historical frames as part of the time, there is still the question of what does that mean to a modern reader, who is reading a book, and usually a young reader at that who is not taking in history as a post-modern textbook reading, but rather as a narrative that is part of her - how is she to react?

    I do not advocate censorship, but it is easy to see how the issue emerges within a frame that teaches the text before the background, yet emphasizes the background over the text.

    The real problem with Finn is that the text, from what I can recall, is so much about racism and the American past, but the American past is now being distanced to "overcome" racism - simply, if one is not part of the historical background, to what extent is the historical background relevant as a text in itself.

    The power of Finn is in narratology, I would argue, not on its political themes, but you commit the exact same crime that those who criticize it do - you read it for the politics, and not for the narrative, and you instead make an affirmation to its political goodness within its own context, rather than its racism within a different context, when, arguably, if you wish to talk about greatness, you should affirm that its racist or not racist content are part of a discussion, but are not the essence of the book, the same way antisemitism is not the essence of the Merchant of Venice, despite that Shakespeare's writing of Shylock as such a powerful character has forced the play to be read as such (we all know the merchant is not Shylock, and the bulk of the plot is centered on a series of romances, rather than on Shylock's bond, which merely serves to bring a frame to the tragicomic - the end is not in Shylock's defeat, but rather in the lover's defeat.

    Likewise, the power of Eliot is not in his Christian affirmation, or anti-semitism, and rarely do people read him for his antisemitism. The reason for a career decline is the fact that poetics moved differently in the United States than in Britain, as did culture - the great modern poets of the States were Frost and Stevens, not Eliot and Pound, and as such the tradition moved away from the Romantic works of Eliot, and the archaic works of Pound to the more Whitman-heavy works of Frost, and the more contemplative and meditative works of Stevens (with perhaps W. C. Williams coming in as a third voice).

    In Europe, the take was perhaps different - Eliot holds a lot more with English poetics, so it is perhaps easier for someone like Geoffrey Hill to hold him in his great esteem - but there there is also a tradition of local born poets to put into the context - as such, Eliot went from being THE English poet, to one of a series of modernist voices - his antisemitism did nothing really, as his poems are relatively free of an antisemitic voice.

    In terms of political correctness - the actual extent of it is quite misunderstood - it does not actually mean killing texts in the vast majority of its contexts - simply put, English departments are too big, and English Ph. D.s to numerous, so it became fashionable for trends to emerge - for instance, the Showalter followers who decided to just look for any female who ever penned a verse. What that did really was just to broaden the Canon for a couple of decades, with, other perspectives such as post-colonialism coming in, bringing more topics to discuss. Did that really kill reading greatness though? Well, I had an Edmund Spenser specialist explain that the amount of writing on him was never more numerous than in the past 50 years, but what it did was just to focus people's attention to other aspects of his work - mainly his colonialism, rather than the structuralist readings that dominated before.

    Likewise, Shakespeare was never abandoned - nor was Conrad - reading greatness was never killed, though in certain institutions there was a shift more to look at contemporary works - that was the big strike to the canon, namely, American authors becoming a much bigger part of the American curriculum.

    In that vein, the number of scholars working on Milton in American institutions are far lower than those working on 20th century American fiction. There was a post a few years ago detailing the simple fact that the more "dated" your specialty in English is, the less people there are competing for faculty positions - and I think that is the main root of the question. Why are we so preoccupied with fiction, and, by extension, 20th century fiction?

    For people coming out of that mold, and students entering that mold, it is hard to ignore modern critical opinions, as they are so much of the context of the 20th century world. The older texts really haven't changed much, but the newer ones have gained undeserved exposure because of academic fixation - that is not true of all institutions, but it is particularly true of American ones, though still not all. The focus on American reading makes American modes of reading, and American issues in the forefront, whereas the focus on classical reading moves classical issues to the forefront.

    But who is going to sit there and read books on Neoplatonic notions of love in Edmund Spenser's Four Hymns, or read the religious debates, still in archaic spelling, of Tyndale and More, which go on for pages, yet were the big issues of the time. And to what extent does that leak into the popular culture - the culture of the contemporary, from my reading, especially of the States, is one where an individual must contemplate the role of their country, and their society, and the issues of homophobia, racism, and sexism. Canada is different, as we have come above that to an extent, but still Canadian literature would focus on our issues, as that is what is of concern at the moment to the youth, who, seeking something from text, will turn to something that speaks to them.

    Spenser is hardly accessible, he is difficult reading. In that sense, you go to the institution to learn about him, rather than read him at home at the age of 15, missing everything. Huck Finn is accessible, so it is criticized, since its context is not defined, and the relationship between it and its readers not one of distance but one of closeness - it speaks of current issues that should not be current issues, and is, as such, hard to contextualize - racism exists in the forms within the book, whereas colonialism in Spenser, or misogyny in The Taming of the Shrew are now so distant as to be read from a distance.

    You call it railing at greatness, I call it yelling into the mirror. When one sees ones own flaws in a text it is easy to yell at the text - how can one affirm the greatness of Moby Dick without seeing in it the self-loathed repugnance that is a culture that contains the same tropes.

    Beyond that, the rest of the world does not do that, as the rest of the world's literature is not the same, nor the world they live in. The States has issues, and expresses them through their academy - Canadian literature study is more keeping with a sort of post-post-modernism, that gets beyond the issues, which is where the American academy is heading, and many already have headed - the text of The Western Canon, or even of The Closing of the American Mind are so dated already that it is ridiculous.

    Simply put, the essay to me seems to ride a bandwagon of 20-odd year old criticism that has gone as out of fashion as what it is criticizing. Even Harold Bloom seems to have shut up about it, and those who are still writing it are either aged, or, if young, archaic.

    The canon did not die either, as it cannot die, nor has reading died, nor has the aesthetic died - merely, the shift in culture that was the post Cold-War generation has occurred - and now the post-post-Cold-War generation is finding its relationship to a) history, and b) literature.

    The irony is, those critics who focused so much on yelling have shifted away too - nobody is writing the polemics they did before in the same way - it is now too an historical narrative, to an extent, which is emerging in a new aesthetic.

    I read a couple of years ago in Canadian Literature of how Al Purdy is now published, along with other Canadian poets, in selected volumes that feature their best, and show a tradition - the point was his racism in his works was removed, and less focused, to bring a new audience to read Purdy as the elegiac poet of a shifting Canadian identity - he has moved, with the Canadian identity, through the transition, and as such the critic argued, so has the tradition, that looks at him as an historical pivot, rather than as themselves, and therefore goes over the racist undertone as historical, rather than personal.

    By extension, similar things occur in Eliot, where to me mention of not liking him because of Antisemitism is as laughable as mentioning not liking Dickens because of antisemitism (I know people who went to private Judaic high schools who were taught him in class, without his antisemitism being an issue) - likewise, we have moved beyond even Marlowe's antisemitism, and Said himself stated his great love for the French writers who he criticized in his Orientalism, with an extended point that his book was aimed at addressing how the same tropes he found within them are still apparent, and not at killing the authors, nor at writing a "positive" view of the "orient" (a place he argues does not exist). The trend is to break things down until they become part of an historical narrative, not to bury them in the ground - Said's Flaubert is a great author, Said's Naipaul is a Racist "witness for the prosecution". The distance and history between the two figures is worth pointing out, where one is within a context that has been breaking for a while, whereas one is within a modern context who tries to reaffirm racism.

    To sum it up, Huck Finn is read as racist, and therefore bashed as such, because the world it is read in is still so heavily dominated by its tropes - the critics and the political correct police will break away at that, and will be broken, and are being broken, and out of that emerges a literary historical context and identity, and a new cultural identity, rather than a new canon, as that was never the goal.

    Hence why I pushed this far more on the American academic establishment, since they have a more repressed cultural identity that does not wish to really move forward, only bury things within the culture and ignore them. (and what better way than yelling at everything that could look offensive, rather than addressing how these things are still ingrained in the culture).
    JBI, have you taken any literature courses in the US? Just curious.

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Virgil View Post
    Yes, that's at the core of the issue, though I'm not sure why you say both sides are at fault. I think the people who refuse to succumb to political correctness are only asking that a writer be taken in his totality. Certainly a writer of the pre PC world could very well be anti Semitic or racist, and if so it should be pointed out, though his art might rise above it. However one should see the total man, his humanity in the context of what I'll call the natural law of human decency, not just on whether he used a stereotype here or an off color word there.
    But who actually does that? I've certainly pointed out that Shakespeare's depiction of Shylock is anti-Semitic, etc. that doesn't mean I dislike Shakespeare's works or even dislike The Merchant of Venice.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drkshadow03 View Post
    But who actually does that? I've certainly pointed out that Shakespeare's depiction of Shylock is anti-Semitic, etc. that doesn't mean I dislike Shakespeare's works or even dislike The Merchant of Venice.
    There are a few critics who urge to burn books, but the vast majority just want to boost their careers by attacking books that ultimately will not be forgotten, and whose esteem will never change, despite a new section in an introduction dedicated to highlighting said "find".

    The real ones who need to watch out are new authors, as non PC things in new works have two results - the book gets burned, or the book gets publicity. After all, people still bought copies and copies of Andrew Dice Clay standup back in the day, and his whole gimmick was to be as foul and bigoted as possible in our modernity. His career was basically bigotry.

    Then again, someone like Philip Roth I believe is depressed to not see himself with a Nobel Prize because of his misogyny, so that is the flip side of the coin - his more masturbatory novels don't sell well at all, after all. Still, later authors are afraid to touch his material, and are afraid to write about anything related to sex or race because of the inherent fear of bringing on the negative backlash.


    As for me taking any courses in the US, not yet, but I have read American scholarship, both theoretical and critical for several years now, as well as other traditions of scholarship. Likewise I have completed work with American academics on fields related to American literature.

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    Okay. I was wondering if you had anything to base that last absurd post on. I don't know why, it's just typical JBI anti-American shlock.

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    Vincit Qui Se Vincit Virgil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drkshadow03 View Post
    But who actually does that? I've certainly pointed out that Shakespeare's depiction of Shylock is anti-Semitic, etc. that doesn't mean I dislike Shakespeare's works or even dislike The Merchant of Venice.
    The new class of critics (New Historians, deconstructionists, and the like) has reassessed many of the great writers and lowered their worth based on PC. In some cases more successful than others. Shakespeare is untouchable, but he has a mixed record since he's perceived by some to have been homosexual (he wasn't). Milton is no longer as high as he used to be. Twain, Conrad, Hemingway, TS Eliot, and DH Lawrence have their problems with the PC crowd. At one time Lawrence was held to be the comparable to Joyce, but the feminist critics have destroyed him. They hate his guts. Perhaps rightly since Lawrence was consciously anti-feminist, but his great works are a high literary achievement.

    Let me add that thank heavens those critics, though they dominate the post grad academe, are not the only critics around.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mutatis-Mutandi View Post
    Okay. I was wondering if you had anything to base that last absurd post on. I don't know why, it's just typical JBI anti-American shlock.
    I agree, that's JBI and his typical spouting without experience.
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    Bibliophile JBI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mutatis-Mutandi View Post
    Okay. I was wondering if you had anything to base that last absurd post on. I don't know why, it's just typical JBI anti-American shlock.
    Back up your comment with relevant information or prepare to be burned. I have no patience right now for your name calling, as my statement is quite justified and is in no way hampered by nationality or academic background. If you wish to criticize its points, do so constructively, or prepare for more typical JBI shlock.

    You have no basis in either criticism or theory to dispute me, only my nationality, and I am going to call that politically incorrect bigotry.

    The American academy has trends, as perceivable within their scholarship, which I read, and in their academic establishment's order, which I am aware of and informed of, and read about. If somehow you automatically disqualify my judgement because of my nationality, and neither on my content nor my evidence, then all I can say to you is you are a ridiculous moron with too much free time and too little creativity. At least when St. Lukes does it he is a little bit interesting and includes a few interesting pictures. Yet I somehow suspect he could provide more than one aspect of evidence in support of the ridiculousness of race and culture in art politics in the United States (as he is oft to mention his colleague who refuses to be in All-Black exhibits that she feels delimit her based on her racial identity). Such comments from him are just as justified as ones from me, as they are informed by knowledge, rather than an assumption. There are times I am anti-American, but this post was hardly even close - something like the presence of an "African-American" literature in itself suggests to some extent I am right - that the culture needs an "African American Studies" as an integral part of understanding itself gestures to the repression and suppression within American identity.


    It amazes me how educated people can dismiss points based on the fact that somebody else has a different academic background than they do, or even a different nationality. My comment was comparative, and what better grounds to make comparison than from a perspective that has something with which to compare? Get off your high jingoist horse and read something - if that something shows me to be wrong, or if you own opinions do, then say so, but until then, keep your heinous idiocy to yourself as it has no place on a board that explicitly bans arguments based on personal attacks, regardless of how ridiculous their superficiality.
    Last edited by JBI; 02-21-2012 at 02:05 AM.

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    Okay, maybe I was overly harsh, but I can assure you that my statement was not made because of your nationality, but because of your posting history. You admit it yourself; you've been anti-American in the past. I'm sorry, but any of your criticisms on America are hard to take seriously. Plus, that final comment hardly seemed relevant to the rest of your thoughtful and intelligent post. You just had to get in your little shot against America.

    The biggest problem I have with your comments, such as the above one, is that you always generalize the whole of the US by claiming that a conservative ideology is representative in all of the US, when it's just not the case. Not everyone wants to "repress" out cultural scope--I would argue that most academics believe quite the opposite, all of the professors I've had included.

    But, what's the point, JBI? You're not going to change your mind. Hy should I even bother? I've already wasted enough of my time on a futile purpose.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mortalterror View Post
    Dear Diary, today I witnessed my first stoning. Awesome! I totally respect other peoples cultures, in spite of the way that they differ from my own.
    Good one! Cultural Relativism at it's worst!!! No I don't, nor will EVER respect Islamic cultures who practice evil towards women.

    Quote Originally Posted by JBI View Post
    Meh, I would just say put the whole thing in brackets and put a big "AMERICA" beside everything - these trends are very deeply American, and, to me, stem less from a sense of political correctness than from a sense of repressed shame and repressed history (Martin Luther King is celebrated, bringing the racist history as a form of celebration of its overcoming, rather than a disgust at its existence). That simple classical American example of reworking events and its own narrative forces every artist and critic to watch out - they know that the repressed demon is lurking around the corner waiting to strike, and as soon as it does, out goes their career.

    As for Irony, that also is dependant on culture - Canadian irony is still written and read, for instance, but irony takes the ability to laugh at yourself a little bit, something which Americans are reluctant to do, as they repress things and seem to prefer to silence things rather than face them.
    JBI, you sure are fond of generalizing, aren't you? Now you are an expert on the United States. You never witnessed the America of the 1960's and before. How could you ever know the damage caused by slavery and racism-for both white and black populations. I doubt you have ever had a conversation with black populations in our country. (Note I have not used the term African American, that is a term imposed mostly by the PC media).
    So when you say Americans prefer to silence things rather than face them, think again. We know of and are proud of the improvements and achievements made in the U.S.
    Stick to being a China expert instead, or maybe not, since you are also unaware of communism.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KCurtis View Post
    Good one! Cultural Relativism at it's worst!!! No I don't, nor will EVER respect Islamic cultures who practice evil towards women.
    What about christian cultures who practise vatican sponsored evil against women?

    And yes it is hard to take anything JBI say about America seriously. But then again Mutatis, it is hard to take anything you say about america too seriously as well considering you have never lived anywhere besides Illinois.

    I mean as an Italian living in england, the majority of english people think that because they are european, they know how Italy is. The only ones who aknowlege that they know very little about Italy are the ones who have lived in various countries.

    So truley how much can a person who has lived in only Illinois know about California or Texas.

    Everyone critizises JBI for his (clearly visible) bias, but you and possibly mortal(I don't know where he has lived and the extent of his travells) are just as limited in view when talking about America as JBI.

    Just saying...

    Quote Originally Posted by Virgil View Post
    Shakespeare is untouchable, but he has a mixed record since he's perceived by some to have been homosexual (he wasn't).
    Slow down cowboy. I agree it is sophistry to claim that William was gay or bi, but it is even more sophistry to claim he was not. There is evidence which suggests he was gay, and it would not be suprising considering that historicaly gay men are more prone towards artistic pursuits than not - as while only 8% of the male population is gay/bi when we look at the canon of art or music or literature the figure is much higher than 8% - nonetheless the only answer which does not sound stupid to my ears is that we don't know about his sexuality, even though from historic evidence it is more likely that he was bi or gay rather than simply straight.

    Out of curiosity what impelled you to state that he was not gay? Was it just good old fashioned christian bigotry or was there some actual evidence you seem to have discovered and kept hidden from the scholarly world?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alexander III View Post
    What about christian cultures who practise vatican sponsored evil against women?

    And yes it is hard to take anything JBI say about America seriously. But then again Mutatis, it is hard to take anything you say about america too seriously as well considering you have never lived anywhere besides Illinois.

    I mean as an Italian living in england, the majority of english people think that because they are european, they know how Italy is. The only ones who aknowlege that they know very little about Italy are the ones who have lived in various countries.

    So truley how much can a person who has lived in only Illinois know about California or Texas.

    Everyone critizises JBI for his (clearly visible) bias, but you and possibly mortal(I don't know where he has lived and the extent of his travells) are just as limited in view when talking about America as JBI.

    Just saying
    Are you serious? How am I as limited as JBI? JBI doesn't live in the US, I DO. are you seriously implying that every American must live in every state to understand America? I've been to Texas and California, an guess what? The people there are pretty much the same. There are a few liberals, a few conservatives, and a bunch of moderates just trying to make a decent life for themselves.

    I also guess this means JBI can hardly comment on the whole of Canada, since it's a much larger country than the US with, possibly, an even larger cultural divide with their French speaking community.

    I'm not sure why you think opinions across America vary so widely, but they don't. They do a little, but we are still one nation, and someone from Claifornia is not some sort of foreigner to someone from Texas.

    Seriously, Alex, that's one of the most ridiculous posts I've read in a long time.

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    I think geography is hardly a very effective weapon to use in a duel, it does not kill nor protect. Unless of course, you want a Boris Grushenko kind of duel.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mutatis-Mutandi View Post
    Are you serious? How am I as limited as JBI? JBI doesn't live in the US, I DO. are you seriously implying that every American must live in every state to understand America? I've been to Texas and California, an guess what? The people there are pretty much the same. There are a few liberals, a few conservatives, and a bunch of moderates just trying to make a decent life for themselves.

    I also guess this means JBI can hardly comment on the whole of Canada, since it's a much larger country than the US with, possibly, an even larger cultural divide with their French speaking community.

    I'm not sure why you think opinions across America vary so widely, but they don't. They do a little, but we are still one nation, and someone from Claifornia is not some sort of foreigner to someone from Texas.

    Seriously, Alex, that's one of the most ridiculous posts I've read in a long time.
    I definately agree. The United States are UNITED, the same country. It seems a lesson in the U.S. is necessary. In no way is the U.S.A. like the different European countries, which are SEPARATE COUNTRIES.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alexander III View Post
    What about christian cultures who practise vatican sponsored evil against women?

    Just saying...
    Um- There is no comparison. And let's not be so PC. Many Islamic practices consider stoning women, forcing them to wear ridiculous coverings over their entire bodies, and killing them for minor offenses or imagined offenses. HOW DOES THIS compare to christian cultures? Oh, cultural relativism! Let's all practice that! Nope, not for me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mutatis-Mutandi View Post
    Are you serious? How am I as limited as JBI? JBI doesn't live in the US, I DO. are you seriously implying that every American must live in every state to understand America? I've been to Texas and California, an guess what? The people there are pretty much the same. There are a few liberals, a few conservatives, and a bunch of moderates just trying to make a decent life for themselves.

    I also guess this means JBI can hardly comment on the whole of Canada, since it's a much larger country than the US with, possibly, an even larger cultural divide with their French speaking community.

    I'm not sure why you think opinions across America vary so widely, but they don't. They do a little, but we are still one nation, and someone from Claifornia is not some sort of foreigner to someone from Texas.

    Seriously, Alex, that's one of the most ridiculous posts I've read in a long time.

    It is not about size, it is about diversity. The level of diversity in America cannot be compared to the level of diversity found in a single country, it is far more akin to the diversity found on a continent.

    What the heck do you know about a mexican imigrants experiance in califronia, yet they make up a considerable amount of population. How about a southern balck and white man, or a urban think new york, black or white man. What is American culture? Before it could be said to be WASP culture becuase they were the dominant majority, but know it clearly is not.

    In Italy there is a higly unified culture, in America this is not the case, there are far more realities and differneces. In Italy 90% of the population is white and catolic. The level of diversity in America is far more accentuated.

    The fact that you found my post ridicoulous if anything proves my point. Ofcourse you would find it ridicoulous. Afterall I was critisizing you for thinking that America was much more culturaly homozygose that it is. So me pointing out it vasr heterodiversity is at huge odds with your view.

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    I'm not arguing with you over this, Alex. I know my country, and I know it better than you. I'm not having a huge circular argument that will lead nowhere.

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