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Thread: We Need A Revolution In Literature!

  1. #91
    Registered User Darcy88's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafolini View Post
    There is no lost & found in this context. How could there be any proof? I think it is not a little, but a big speculative fantasy of mine. On the other hand, that Shakespeare was one of the great is your speculative canon fantasy.
    You don't think that Shakespeare was one of the greats?

    When in disgrace with fortune and men’s eyes
    I all alone beweep my outcast state,
    And trouble deaf heaven with my bootless cries,
    And look upon myself, and curse my fate,
    Wishing me like to one more rich in hope,
    Featured like him, like him with friends possessed,
    Desiring this man’s art, and that man’s scope,
    With what I most enjoy contented least;
    Yet in these thoughts myself almost despising,
    Haply I think on thee,—and then my state,
    Like to the lark at break of day arising
    From sullen earth, sings hymns at heaven’s gate;
    For thy sweet love remembered such wealth brings
    That then I scorn to change my state with kings.
    Perhaps you may be on to something. No, not very great at all.

  2. #92
    The Wolf of Larsen WolfLarsen's Avatar
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    Smile

    Cafolini said:
    " Good stuff. Apart from the creativity idea, which has become an unalyzed canon with which I disagree, as you know, I like very much what you had to say here. There is a lot here that is, for today, beyond words. Dictionaries are not even half complete. Language is evolving but far too slow. Why? The misserable canons that repress antomyms and parallel routes. There is a lot of superstition posing as understition. Understanding is always there. Superstanding more, but not even considered. Languages other than English are even more primitive in the use of verbs that are lacking.
    Have fun. Thanks for sharing. "
    Wolf responds:
    HA HA HA Ha ha ha ha HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!

    Yes, we need to eat chicken-dinosaurs! If we insert the DNA of correct grammatical structure into a Shakespeare pigeon's womb, and we splice the DNA with a few strands of Allen Ginsberg's Howl then we will certainly get the giant cannon/canon blast through the fortress of the literary establishment that we are all seeking.

    But more seriously you're right! The dictionary is not complete! Let's start making up new words! Some of the words can be less bizarre and more of the words can be more bizarre! The more bizarrer the better! Hell, if the 43rd president can make up words why the hell can't we?! Why the hell should Webster have a monopoly on dictionaries?! Everybody should make their own dictionaries if they want to! New literature doesn't have to make sense in the traditional sense, it need only make sense in the postmodern sense!

    And why shouldn't we invent new languages?! Everyone can speak their own language! The more languages the better!

    Traditionalists will say that this will hamper communications. That's true and not true, because within everything there is its opposite. Something might not make sense to a traditional thinker but those fluent in the postmodernisms of all the arts will understand what's going on.

    Sounds like a great time to go creative. But meanwhile I will go traitor. The carcass of traditionalism still has some good meat on it that for the time being and I will devour!


    JCamilo said:
    "... Dude, I'm Brazilian..."
    This says everything! Porque Brazil e o melhor pais no mundo! Que sorte tem voce! Melhor voce mora aqui com os gringos no frio e eu moro la em Brazil em su lugar. Esta bom? Braaaaziiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiil!

    You see, Camilo does not understand our anal-retentive obsession with Norton's anthology. How could he? He's Brazilian. Only anal-retentive Americans like myself or perhaps anal-retentive Englishmen could possibly understand this anal-retentive obsession with Norton's anthology.

    But even though I am the son of an immigrant and my anal-retentive self is not necessarily understood by all the relatives I must say that as a man born in America - can you hear the national anthem playing in the background? – I mean I have just as much right to be as anal-retentive as any Anglo-Saxon Protestant American. I'm certainly not insulting my Anglo-Saxon Protestant countrymen, but to be honest I prefer the hot dogs of Cambodia to the ones of the good old USA. I am an internationalist American!

    Look Camilo, it all goes back to the wars between the English and the French in North America. The French got Quebec and the English got the rest of it. Unfortunately, the USA rose up to dominate the world and that is part of the reason why English and not French is the dominant language of the world. If the French had won in North America we would all be arguing about something or another in French, and no doubt since French culture is far less inhibited and anal-retentive and far more sensual we probably wouldn't have this anal-retentive obsession with the Norton anthology. We would be more like Brazilians, albeit French-speaking ones.

    But I have a solution. All the Brasileiros should go live in the United States and Britain to help Anglo-Saxon culture become less anal-retentive. Meanwhile, I will live in Brazil and keep all of the Brasileras happy. Don't worry, I'm up to the task, after all I have lots of energy!

    Oh wait wait! Perhaps the transvestites (though technically men) can stay in Brazil with me. I've been to 51 countries but I tell you Brazil has the best transvestites! The transvestites in Brazil are proof that the most beautiful women are actually men!

    There are other posters who will say that all of the above is a digression from the topic at hand. I couldn't disagree more. We all need to be more Brazilian! The more Brazilian we are the greater that English literature will become.

    The fact is the more contact we have with other cultures the more enriched the Anglo-Saxon/English language will become. No doubt, conquering India helped the British become more cultured, because the subcontinent is an older culture than Britain. Britain’s growth as a world power exposed it to other cultures and helped her to become more than just some isolated rock on the periphery of Europe.

    But now the question remains how do we civilize the Americans? Just kidding, sort of.
    "...the ramblings of a narcissistic, self-obsessed, deranged mind."
    My poetry, plays, novels, & other stuff on Amazon:
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  3. #93
    The Wolf of Larsen WolfLarsen's Avatar
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    Oh, and somebody submitted a rather decent poem by Shakespeare for review:

    When in disgrace with fortune and men’s eyes
    I all alone beweep my outcast state,
    And trouble deaf heaven with my bootless cries,
    And look upon myself, and curse my fate,
    Wishing me like to one more rich in hope,
    Featured like him, like him with friends possessed,
    Desiring this man’s art, and that man’s scope,
    With what I most enjoy contented least;
    Yet in these thoughts myself almost despising,
    Haply I think on thee,—and then my state,
    Like to the lark at break of day arising
    From sullen earth, sings hymns at heaven’s gate;
    For thy sweet love remembered such wealth brings
    That then I scorn to change my state with kings.
    I had some fun with that poem for ten minutes and this is what I came up with:

    When we fly like disgrace through each other's eyes,
    I all alone weep like falling nuclear missiles,
    And trouble falls up to heaven like some skyscraper’s orgasm,
    I look upon all the thousands of hallucinations of myself, and curse my brains,
    Wishing me to be rich with millions of huge vaginas,
    Featured like millions of McDonald's hamburgers rolling into Shakespeare's mouth,
    Desiring this man's correct grammatical structure around my penis,
    With what I most enjoy like a NASA rocket blasting through my brains
    Yet in whose thoughts I feel the despisement of millions of pigeons,
    Happy I think on his penis & anus & smile like a bisexual euphoria,
    Like 365 days arising & crashing & breaking open,
    From a sullen earth that sings all its billions of cadavers at Heaven's Gate,
    For my sweet semen in a man's mouth is the greatest wealth of all things,
    And let's lynch all the kings

    Anybody else want to kick around some Shakespeare?
    "...the ramblings of a narcissistic, self-obsessed, deranged mind."
    My poetry, plays, novels, & other stuff on Amazon:
    http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=ntt_athr...or=Wolf Larsen

  4. #94
    Registered User Darcy88's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WolfLarsen View Post
    Oh, and somebody submitted a rather decent poem by Shakespeare for review:



    I had some fun with that poem for ten minutes and this is what I came up with:

    When we fly like disgrace through each other's eyes,
    I all alone weep like falling nuclear missiles,
    And trouble falls up to heaven like some skyscraper’s orgasm,
    I look upon all the thousands of hallucinations of myself, and curse my brains,
    Wishing me to be rich with millions of huge vaginas,
    Featured like millions of McDonald's hamburgers rolling into Shakespeare's mouth,
    Desiring this man's correct grammatical structure around my penis,
    With what I most enjoy like a NASA rocket blasting through my brains
    Yet in whose thoughts I feel the despisement of millions of pigeons,
    Happy I think on his penis & anus & smile like a bisexual euphoria,
    Like 365 days arising & crashing & breaking open,
    From a sullen earth that sings all its billions of cadavers at Heaven's Gate,
    For my sweet semen in a man's mouth is the greatest wealth of all things,
    And let's lynch all the kings

    Anybody else want to kick around some Shakespeare?
    Very creative, but I think I prefer the original better, without all the gratuitous obscenity. Shakespeare was so great he could create a more powerful impact without resorting to crass shock tactics.

  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by WolfLarsen View Post
    We Need a Revolution in Literature!
    An Essay by Wolf Larsen

    The best literature is the kind without a price tag. The goal of writing should not be to sell books, but to write the most innovative and exciting literature imaginable.

    Look at all the endless varieties of music! It almost seems that there are as many kinds of music as there are drops of water in the ocean!

    What a different story when you go to the bookstore! In the literature section of the bookstore you will find only novels, short stories, and poetry. That’s it! Why only novels, short stories, and poetry? Why is literature so limited? Why shouldn’t there be as many different kinds of literature as there are different kinds of music? Why must writers limit themselves only to novels, plays, short stories, and poetry? Why shouldn’t writers invent endless kinds of literature besides just novels, short stories, and poetry? It’s fine to write novels, short stories, and poetry – but why not invent new forms of literature as well?

    One of the reasons literature is so limited is that it is still shackled to the major publishing conglomerates and the universities. Literature will not be free until it has unshackled itself from the crass commercial interests of the publishing conglomerates and the conservative influences of the universities.

    Publishing houses have one and only one purpose: to make money. They are hostile to innovation in literature, because publishing innovative literature involves risk. And they certainly don’t want to risk their money! The publishing conglomerates want to continue pouring potential best sellers (particularly airport novels) unto the market. And to the publishing houses that’s all literature is – a market.

    I am not against the publishing conglomerates. Their books provide popular entertainment to the masses. Their backlist includes many good works of literature from the past, (because they make money from them). But while I am not against the publishing conglomerates I don’t like lies – like the misrepresentation of these huge corporations that own an endless array of imprints as being anything other than money-hungry corporations. Contemporary literature of quality needs a home – and that home is not and cannot be the publishing conglomerates – because today’s publishing conglomerates are only concerned with money.

    I am also not against those who work in publishing conglomerates either. For most employees of publishing conglomerates the work is hard, the pay is low, and as the publishing conglomerates have increasingly focused solely on making money the personal rewards for many editors (like getting a favorite manuscript into print) are dwindling. Today an editor in a publishing house cannot push a book for publication just because he loves it – more and more he has to work with books based on their economic potential.

    Academia may claim to be interested in quality in contemporary literature, and academia may also be less interested in money. But academia is primarily interested in promoting the “great” writers and poets of the past and those who today imitate them. (Of course there are exceptions to this – there’s exceptions to everything.) Anyway, after learning in a university about the “greats” of the past what is the writer/poet to do? Should he imitate the “greats” of the past in his writing, or should he seek to create his own innovative literature?

    By a young age Picasso had assimilated the “masters” of the past – and he went on to create new brazen works of art – he departed from the past – and created wonderful CONTEMPORARY masterpieces. Mozart also mastered traditional styles of classical music – and he went on to create music that at his time was INNOVATIVE.

    Hence, the truly great masters of the recent past – in music (Stravinsky, Mahler), painting (Dali, etc.), sculpture (Rodin) – produced great works that were INNOVATIVE and hence FRESH and EXCITING. In contrast, those that worship the past tend to produce works that are stale and flat. Sure, there are adequate writers, painters, sculptors, and composers who can blindly copy the “greats” of the past – but by copying what’s already been done they are contributing nothing to the arts and literature.

    There are those that argue that first you must learn tradition to be a great writer. By all means I agree you should read as much “great” literature as possible – both traditional and contemporary. But then some of these same people will go on to say “learn the rules before you break them.”

    Forget learning the rules unless you plan to write a conventional essay or a guide to used car repair. In creative literature go ahead and unshackle yourself from all rules! SMASH any and all rules with a sledgehammer, a wrecking ball, or better yet with a pen or a paintbrush! Works of literature, music, painting, etc, should obey no conventional rules whatsoever. If you feel the urge to have rules invent your own! Look at Schoenberg’s 12 tone scale! Wow!

    Let’s take grammar for example. Obeying the rules of grammar is fine if you’re writing a conventional essay or a manual about car repair. However, when you’re writing creative literature you should write as freely as possible – without rules.

    There are those that argue that if the writer does not obey the rules of grammar his work will be incomprehensible. That depends. It depends on the writer and his style and it also depends on the reader. In some cases, the writer may be creating for a more limited audience – like those who are familiar with modern and postmodern developments in the arts and literature, for instance – and that would explain why many readers might find a given work incomprehensible. In other cases, the writer may simply be incompetent. However, at times when a work seems incomprehensible it might be the reader’s fault. For example, if the reader hates a work of literature for no other reason than that it is different (i.e. more creative than more conventional works) than it’s the reader’s fault that the work seems incomprehensible. Certainly, if the reader is lazy, ignorant, or simply close-minded he may choose not to apply himself to any literature that is different than what he is used to. Such a person may be more comfortable reading an airport novel or one of the works of the past “greats”. At times, such a person may have an advanced degree and consider themselves highly cultured and learned, but all those years reading literature that is conventional can make it harder for that person’s brain to concentrate on and grasp anything that’s written in a new and innovative manner. The fact that their brain may have a hard time grasping anything that’s written differently than what they’re used to is not the fault of the writer, it is the fault of that particular reader.

    There are people who look at a Jackson Pollock canvas and say, “My five year old can do a better job than that.” Of course, such people are ignorant of art. Instead of studying art (which they don’t) they take their prejudices (which are pro-representational and pro-realism) and from a position of ignorance and prejudice they proclaim everything that doesn’t conform to their ignorant and prejudiced misconceptions of art to be bad. In the world of literature it is even worse. Those who are ignorant, prejudiced, and close-minded stand in judgment of what is “good literature”.

    Should the writer create works of “literature” easily accessible to even the most ignorant and close-minded of readers? Sure, if he wants to make money or be accepted by the conservative world of academia.

    But let us suppose the writer is either not employed by academia or is employed in academia but could care less what some of his “colleagues” in the English department think – in other words he has a decent day job and thus doesn’t give a damn about making money from his writing. Such a writer may be influenced by such innovators as Baudelaire, Rilke, Octavio Paz, Anne Sexton, etc. and less influenced by the “greats” of the publishing conglomerates (the best-sellers) and the “greats” of the academic world (people who have been dead a very long time).

    Frankly, I am rather disappointed with English literature and have ironically found greater inspiration for my writing outside of literature in the other arts (painting, sculpture, architecture, music, modern dance, postmodern theater, etc.). Many of the past “greats” that are in the canon of English literature are not so “great” at all.

    Many of the “great works” of English literature in the canon were written by “gentleman” with disposable income (that they didn’t have to work for) and lots of free time, as well as the high social connections to insure that their work was published. Not all of them were talented or had much to say. Is a writer/poet’s work “great” just because it’s included in the Norton Anthology and the professor taught it in your literature 101 class?

    Of course, some “great” works of the past are better than others. Some of these gentleman of leisure in the canon had talent – in addition to the work ethic necessary to produce great literature – but not all of them.

    Literature has not even begun to reach its potential. In fact, literature will not even begin to reach its potential until all of humanity has ample food in its stomach and plenty of free time.

    The seed of talent falls where it may. Most of those who have disposable income without having to work for it and thus have plenty of free time to write are inborn, have little or no work ethic, and are of mediocre abilities – like the president of my country George Bush. Besides, the outlook of the leisure class is often conservative, so it would not occur to them to write literature that is innovative.

    Most people are so engaged in the struggle for survival that they do not have the time to create innovative literature. When humanity is freed from its bondage to an economic system that benefits only a privileged few than a shorter workweek for all will make it possible for more people to create great works of literature, painting, sculpture, etc.

    Hence, the greatest most innovative period of literature does not lie in the past – but in the future.
    In a different kind of economy huge amounts of money will not be wasted on maintaining a class of worthless bourgeois bums – and huge amounts of money will also not be wasted on gigantic bloated militaries.

    With more money available culture, literature, and the arts would flourish more than ever – because we could improve the quality of education – including teaching more art in the schools – and offering free higher education to all. In such a society, we could also give a modest living stipend to writers and artists. And since more diverse parts of humanity would be free to create great literature – instead of just a small privileged leisure class – literature will have more variety and innovation than ever.

    Thus freed from their chains to market forces and academia writers would be free to create a new innovative literature. A general population with a reduced workweek would have more time to read a new revolutionary literature that’s constantly changing and evolving. If the world of painting can constantly evolve and change – why not literature? If classical music can constantly evolve and change than certainly literature can also evolve and change.

    The defenders of tradition look to the past because they cannot imagine a future any different than the status quo.
    But in fact, civilization is constantly changing. The world is different than it was a hundred years ago – and extremely different than it was just three hundred years ago.

    Human civilization has existed thousands of years – imagine the human race thousands of years from now! We as a species (homo sapiens) have existed 150,000 years – imagine the human race 150,000 years from now!

    If the human race is not extinct in a thousand years – and with constant war and the nuclear bomb that’s a big if – but if the human race is here a thousand years from now it is certain that capitalism will be a distant memory as feudalism is today. So far the human race has gone from hunter gathering to ancient city states to empires like the Roman to feudalism than national monarchies to capitalist “democracy” for the rich.

    Hence, human civilization is constantly evolving, and as civilization evolves so will literature. And just as human civilization has not even begun to reach its full potential, so the same is true for literature and the other arts.

    The best contemporary writers of creative literature – those who write today and will be read a hundred two hundred a thousand years from now – will not be those who copy the past but instead those who CONTRIBUTE to the DEVELOPMENT of literature. The writers who will be read a thousand years from now will be those who helped literature to advance.

    I don’t care whether you like my own literature or not – for the purposes of this essay it is irrelevant. If every writer wrote completely different from each other – and completely different from the “greats” of the past – then there would be more reason to pick up a book – because god knows what’s in between the covers of that book! And if you don’t like that author’s writing you can pick up another author’s book knowing that that book will be completely different than the one you just glanced through.

    Hence, THERE IS NO CORRECT WAY TO WRITE. In fact, the more we depart from the idea that there’s a correct way to write the more variety we offer to our readers. We thus begin to offer readers an exciting universe of literature where every author is completely different than another – how exciting!

    Traditionalists will argue that it is preferable and natural that literature remain the most backward and conservative medium of the art world. (Compare literature’s snail-like advancement to the great innovations in painting, sculpture, and the other arts since the beginning of modernism in the late 19th Century.) However, there is nothing positive about literature’s relative backwardness compared to the other arts. Even classical music in the past 120 years has left the literary world behind in innovation, boldness, and creativity! How pathetic!

    Look – the reason that literature is so backward compared to the other arts can be explained by several simple reasons. The first is money. For a writer to make enough money to support himself comfortably he has to sell A LOT of books. A painter, on the other hand, needs only a few appreciative buyers to support himself. Thus, it is easier (not completely easy – but easier) for the painter to paint whatever he wants. The painter may have to deal with galleries – but he doesn’t have to deal with publishing corporations. The painter doesn’t have to consider entertaining a large reading audience primarily looking for cheap entertainment like the writer does. Hence, partly or mainly for monetary reasons painting has left behind the literary world in boldness, innovation, and quality.

    The writer enjoys little independence. He is dependent on publishing corporations to help him reach a large audience seeking cheap entertainment. Hence, in order to make a living from his craft the writer often has no choice but to write mediocre and non-innovative “literature” that will be acceptable to conservative publishing conglomerates. In addition, since “success” is defined by how many copies are sold, the emphasis is on producing cheap mass entertainment.

    So writing remains the most conservative, mediocre, and backward medium of the art world partly or mostly because of money.

    Another conservatising influence (yes I probably just made up a word – good! We writers should make up words more often) – another conservatising influence on the literary world is the whole prestige game. You get your work in certain prestigious “literary” magazines, get nominated for certain prestigious “literary” awards, etc. – and suddenly you’re considered a “great” writer/poet.

    The pages of many (not all) of the most prestigious literary magazines are filled with excrement masquerading as great literature that doesn’t even qualify as mediocre – it’s just plain bad, conservative, and bland.

    The same is true for many “literary” awards. An “avant-garde” poet received a very large monetary award recently. I won’t name him here – but his work was so conservative, so dull, so devoid of innovation, so much like a zillion other poems you see everywhere that I don’t see how his poetry could be considered “avant-garde”. I guess for the people giving out the prestigious awards and the money anything that doesn’t rhyme is considered “avant-garde”.

    The contemporary writer/poet who wants literature to advance forward instead of being stuck in backwardness is inherently outside the literary world. He views the official literary world with contempt. He understands that the publishing conglomerates, academia, prestigious literary magazines, and award givers are mostly hostile to innovative literature. The contemporary writer/poet who wants literature to advance understands that the literary world is an obstacle to wonderful innovative literature and therefore must be SMASHED TO PIECES. Literature is great – but the literary world is not.

    It would be a great day for literature if all writers and poets started using the pages of the prestigious literary magazines as toilet paper. We don’t need the editors of the prestigious “literary” magazines to showcase great literature because they don’t even know what literature is – let alone great literature. The same can be said of those who give out prestigious “literary” awards – but maybe I shouldn’t say that – sometimes they actually give money to people who write good poetry!

    The great literature of our time is rarely found in prestigious “literary” magazines – it’s rarely found in the Sunday books section of the New York Times – and you would be lucky to find the great literature of our time in the bookstore.

    The great literature of our time can sometimes be discovered in the less famous literary magazines. The great literature of our time can sometimes be discovered on posting boards.

    The poetry stacks of the nation’s public libraries are filled with poets who were famous and prestigious in their times but who have since been forgotten. You open the book and begin reading and you often encounter mediocrity. These formerly famous poets were usually able enough – but their work lacked vision – their work appealed to the popular tastes of their day – but their lack of boldness and originality doomed their work to obscurity over time. The literary establishment has rarely been right in judging who are the great poets and writers of their day, because the tastes of the literary establishment are so conservative and backward.

    As writers most of us – with the exception of the airport novelists – have nothing to gain from the literary world. The traditional literary world is an obstacle to great contemporary literature. The literary world as we know it is an obstacle – an unnecessary middleman – between the writer and the reader. The literary world limits the reader’s choice to an array of airport novels and boring banal “literary” novels that help people fall asleep at night.

    Why should big publishing conglomerates decide which books are available to the general public? After all, there is no positive reason for the publishing conglomerates to exist anymore – except for their backlists.

    With the new technology print-on-demand a reader purchases a book and a copy is printed up especially for him or her. How nice! And the price is almost the same as a traditionally published book – and further advancements in technology will only bring the costs down more. The reader no longer needs to be satisfied with merely choosing amongst the thrillers, romances, and “literary” novels at the bookstore. With the Internet and print-on-demand the reader’s choices are no longer restricted by the dictates of the publishing industry – the reader’s choices are endless!

    Of course, the traditionalists and people employed in the traditional publishing conglomerates may argue that many of the books available via print-on-demand are not masterpieces. But the same is true of the books sold by the traditional publishing industry. In fact, if the book is published by the traditional publishing industry you can bet that the book was published primarily because of its commercial potential.

    With the technology print-on-demand books that are not commercial can now be made available to the general public. For the first time ever the general public can purchase and read all kinds of works of literature that were never available before.

    Another great innovation that makes more possible than ever is the Internet.
    The Internet weakens the traditional prestigious “literary” magazines vis-à-vis the less famous literary magazines that are more likely to publish innovative literature. Before, the more traditional literary magazines could use their prestigious names to receive greater distribution in the bookstores, and it was more difficult to get hold of the less famous literary magazines. But now, with the Internet, the less famous literary magazines that publish more innovative literature are only a click away.

    Of course, traditionalists will argue that not all innovative literature is good. However, most literature written in a traditional style is not good either. In fact, contemporary literature written in a traditional style is more likely to be stale – which is what often happens when one copies from the “masters” of the past. I am not saying that all contemporary literature written in a conventional style is stale. However, most contemporary poetry and prose written in a traditional style seems to be stale.

    Also with the Internet comes the posting boards. I’ve heard other writers/poets complain that many literary posting boards are no more than cliques hostile to outsiders, and other posting boards engage in all kinds of censorship, and still other posting boards are presided over by control freaks who ban everybody who they disagree with, and on some boards there’s intolerance towards writers/poets who feel shy about commenting on the works of others.

    I can understand why writers and poets would find the above problems very irritating. However, I still feel that posting boards are a positive – or can be a positive influence in the world of literature. In addition, posting boards have a great potential to transform the literary world.

    Posting boards make it possible for writers/poets to view each other’s work. In addition, the general public can enjoy a greater variety of literary voices than ever before.

    In addition, another extremely important innovation is the word processor. The word processor, by freeing the writer from the typewriter, has made it possible for the writer to experiment more than ever! A writer can try out zillions of new styles of writing on his processor and go back and change anything he wants easier than ever!

    With the word processor the writer is freer than ever to experiment. The writer may ravage the page at will! The writer is free to change, improve, evolve, invent new words, etc!

    Other technologies like print-on-demand make it easier than ever for the writer to bypass the publishing conglomeracy. You are now free! You don’t have to write some crass commercial novel to get published – you don’t have to write within the “literary” novel’s limitations on creativity – you can write anything any way you want to and the general public will be able to read your book.

    Of course, traditionalists will argue that a self published print-on-demand book stands little chance of being “successful”. But the traditionalists seem to define a book’s “success” more by its sales, and less by its quality or innovation.

    To this I respond that a traditionally published book stands little chance of commercial “success” either. The vast majority of traditionally published books fail commercially.

    Each publishing conglomerate works on much the same premise as a tree. A tree you ask? Yes, a tree – a tree throws out endless seeds every spring – and as you know only a small number of those seeds ultimately become trees.

    The same is true of traditionally published books. Each publishing conglomerate throws out lots and lots of books every year – and the few that make it and generate high sales sustain the publishing conglomerate’s profits.

    And just as a tree throwing out seeds does nothing to nurture its offspring publishing conglomerates nurture very few of their books with adequate publicity.

    The system works for the publishing conglomerates and the few airport novelists whose books become best sellers – but the losers are the vast majority of authors whose books never generate good sales and whose books are out-of-print within a few years.

    The other loser is the member of the general public who walks into a bookstore wanting to read something different than the same fare of romances, action-thrillers, and “literary” fiction.

    But now, with the advent of the Internet and posting boards and print-on-demand and the endless choices on Amazon.com and other online retailers the man or woman who wants something different than romances, thrillers, “literary” fiction and the like can now find an endless variety of literature on posting boards, in obscure e-zines that publish “out there” literature, and on author’s web-sites.

    Hence, now both the writer and the reader are free from the restraint of choices found in traditionally published books.

    The posting boards have a very important role to play. Over time, some posting boards may acquire a reputation for having more daring writing and will draw more interest from the general public. The public will be able to purchase on Amazon.com via print-on-demand whatever author they choose. Old outmoded institutions like the traditional publishing industry and the New York Times Book Review will play no role in any of this at all.

    Hence, the posting boards, (or at least some of them), will provide the general public with a venue to read all kinds of exciting innovative literature like they’re never read before, and the posting boards will thus help the writer of innovative literature to receive exposure and thus help writers to become increasingly independent of the big publishing conglomerates.

    Of course, not all writers want to be independent of the big publishing conglomerates. Many writers want to make big royalties, and the only way to do that is to write commercial airport novels. Of course, after the aspiring would-be airport novelist has actually written the commercial work he has to somehow get the attention of a literary agent, which is nearly impossible. If after writing the commercial work the writer is lucky enough to get a literary agent and then (hopefully) a publisher the would-be airport novelist is still not on easy street yet. After you sign the contract with the publisher the literary agent’s work is done, but the author’s headache is just beginning. Publishing conglomerates are notoriously stingy in putting resources and time into promoting their books. They publish LOTS of books every year – and they don’t have the time, resources, or inclination to adequately promote all their books.

    You might have the most commercial book in the world, but if your book doesn’t receive any publicity than nobody will know about your book which means nobody buys it and your book will be out-of-print in a few years – which is what happens to most traditionally published books anyway.

    Of course, you could max out your credit cards and take out loans to buy more publicity for your book – but this will more likely result in bankruptcy than a bestseller. The traditional publisher might offer to pay half of the publicity/promotion for your book if you pay the other half – but unless you want bankruptcy in your future you might want to be careful how much you put up for publicity.

    When (and if) a traditional publisher signs up your book you might receive all kinds of promises about how they’ll promote your book. Take it all with a grain of salt. The person in the publishing house in charge of promoting your book is also in charge of promoting LOTS of books. And unless your name is Stephen King or John Grisham don’t expect the publicity of your book to be given much priority – especially if you’re a first time author. And if your first book doesn’t sell there’s a good chance that no publisher is going to want your second book.

    By the way, don’t be surprised if the publishing conglomerate re-writes your book to make it more commercial.

    Why bother with all that? Why not write what you want to write? Why bother writing a commercial novel that’s just like so many other books already out there anyway?

    But one thing: in the unlikely event that a publishing house offers you a big advance my advice is to take it! If a publishing house gives you a big advance they’re almost definitely going to heavily promote your book – because they want to get a return on their investment.

    Something you may want to ask yourself is – why do you write? Do you write to make money? Do you write for prestige and acclaim? Do you write with the opinions of others in mind? Or do you write because you have to create?

    If the reason that you write is that you have to create than money, prestige, and the opinions of others are all secondary. Creating innovative works of literature is probably not going to make you money or give you prestige and acclaim anytime soon. And like many others who were creative – like Gauguin, Mahler, Rodin, etc. – you will receive endless harsh attacks.

    Let others make all the money from their airport novels, let others receive all the prestige and acclaim for their conventional banal “poetry”. Let others receive all the applause for their conservative traditional works written in “good taste”. Their work will wither into dust over time. A hundred years from now no one will be reading their novels, poems, and plays.

    Nearly everything ever painted, sculpted, or written in “good taste” later withered and died with time. “Good taste” is nothing more than what is in fashion at the time – and as time passes what was in “good taste” centuries ago becomes trivial.

    Many of the masters of the past in literature, painting, sculpture, and music were nothing less than innovators and revolutionaries in their time. Their work often caused controversy because they were not enslaved to tradition. They did not care about “good taste”. They could give a damn about the opinions of others.

    There is no correct way to write – at least in the creative sense. The very essence of creativity is to write without rules. In the arts there is no correct ism – except INDIVIDUALISM. Hopefully, you are a unique person. And if there’s no one else in the world like you why should you write like anybody else?

    I am not against conventional writing. It has its place. I have utilized it for essays and autobiographical novels. But I reject the idea that everything – particularly creative literature – must be written in a conventional manner according to any set of rules, including grammar. There is no correct way to write creative literature! As writers we should SMASH TO PIECES any obstacle to individual expression – especially in literature – which has been chained to tradition and convention for far too long.

    Copyright 2007 by Wolf Larsen
    In fact I find his writings highly revealing and in fact I support his ideas of freeing our literary world from the age old shackles of academia and a few publishing houses. We have no revolution in literature over the centuries and we still are haunted by the ghosts of the past. Yes literature is today has a boundary and our past theorists and academics still influence the way literature is written and we have been exorcised by the ghosts of Shakespeare, Milton, Dickens and the like and nobody dares something different and few can defy the age torn style of writing. Let us be open and be liberal and free ourselves from the fetters of traditionalism and grammaticism. In fact English has mainly for colonial reasons been a lingua franca and people across many geographical zones and cultural regions speak and write in English and yes as a second language they have a lot of difficulty in speaking out their thoughts through English and in fact the grammar of English is too complicated to master and it takes a lot of energies and efforts of us to master this language and though we can compete with any native writers in content but in style we are far behind and as such let us rule our the primacy of grammar over literature. Of course a piece of literature must be something that must be written in a lucid and eloquent way and people are after taste, favor, philosophy and the like in a piece of writing and those who take on this literary journey can come up with all these elements save grammatical correctness and it is really a big challenge and it is something they cannot easily internalize and if this part is loosed free we can come across plenty of non-native writers who have been simply blocked from getting publicity.

    I like the idea of writing innovatively and I am also feeling that our fixation with traditional writing styles have crippled us and if a writer is given the freedom of writing as he wants not the way his editors or publishers want he can come up with such beautiful literary pieces he can even dazzle Shakespeare or Milton for that matter for today we live in a different age and today we have great many sources and we are clustering together globally and the Internet has revolutionized information and anybody living anywhere across the globe can freely and unlimitedly communicate with anybody and can learn from one another. Today's humans have boundless resources and the only bitter reality he is hard pressed to live with is depression. Today's man has a longer span of life and yet the quality of life has become very low and though we have a variety of dishes and sadly we have lost the appetite and as a result we live half-starved and of course today's literature must come up with some of the realities we come upon in every walk of life and as a writer myself I feel we are doing disservice to the realities we live with today.

    I like this essay so much and I have this saved in my folder and find it a subject of reference whenever I do write something

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    I just don't see it. I am not particularly widely read but I can come up with innumerable examples of unique experimental literature that pushes boundaries, defies conventions, written by all sorts of individuals, be they homosexual, poor, whatever. Anyone who looks at English literature from Chaucer to today and finds it lacking in quality and diversity is obviously blind. We have literature full of sex, full of politics, full of all that could possibly offend the "anal-retentiveness" Wolf rails against.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darcy88 View Post
    I just don't see it. I am not particularly widely read but I can come up with innumerable examples of unique experimental literature that pushes boundaries, defies conventions, written by all sorts of individuals, be they homosexual, poor, whatever. Anyone who looks at English literature from Chaucer to today and finds it lacking in quality and diversity is obviously blind. We have literature full of sex, full of politics, full of all that could possibly offend the "anal-retentiveness" Wolf rails against.
    I like the way you have put forth and I second your idea of doing something literarily. I am averse to classicisms in literature sticking to everything old and classical. Today we have homosexuals among us and some are activists, others are traditions – breakers, kind of renegades, iconoclasts. I am often an extremist, not a political fanatic and an ideological fundamentalist but in art I opt for anarchism. I want to break with everything past and I distaste the ones who always recommend classicists and want to judge our pieces of literature by their standards. They are dead bones and I loathe them and I turn to living writers though they adulterate their writings and yet they are bold enough to put forth what really goes inside their minds. Sometimes nudity, sometimes stupidity. I like the modern stuff. Something you can call post colonial or post modern, though I hate labels

  8. #98
    The Wolf of Larsen WolfLarsen's Avatar
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    Osho said:

    In fact I find his writings highly revealing and in fact I support his ideas of freeing our literary world from the age old shackles of academia and a few publishing houses. We have no revolution in literature over the centuries and we still are haunted by the ghosts of the past. Yes literature is today has a boundary and our past theorists and academics still influence the way literature is written and we have been exorcised by the ghosts of Shakespeare, Milton, Dickens and the like and nobody dares something different and few can defy the age torn style of writing. Let us be open and be liberal and free ourselves from the fetters of traditionalism and grammaticism. In fact English has mainly for colonial reasons been a lingua franca and people across many geographical zones and cultural regions speak and write in English and yes as a second language they have a lot of difficulty in speaking out their thoughts through English and in fact the grammar of English is too complicated to master and it takes a lot of energies and efforts of us to master this language and though we can compete with any native writers in content but in style we are far behind and as such let us rule our the primacy of grammar over literature. Of course a piece of literature must be something that must be written in a lucid and eloquent way and people are after taste, favor, philosophy and the like in a piece of writing and those who take on this literary journey can come up with all these elements save grammatical correctness and it is really a big challenge and it is something they cannot easily internalize and if this part is loosed free we can come across plenty of non-native writers who have been simply blocked from getting publicity.

    I like the idea of writing innovatively and I am also feeling that our fixation with traditional writing styles have crippled us and if a writer is given the freedom of writing as he wants not the way his editors or publishers want he can come up with such beautiful literary pieces he can even dazzle Shakespeare or Milton for that matter for today we live in a different age and today we have great many sources and we are clustering together globally and the Internet has revolutionized information and anybody living anywhere across the globe can freely and unlimitedly communicate with anybody and can learn from one another. Today's humans have boundless resources and the only bitter reality he is hard pressed to live with is depression. Today's man has a longer span of life and yet the quality of life has become very low and though we have a variety of dishes and sadly we have lost the appetite and as a result we live half-starved and of course today's literature must come up with some of the realities we come upon in every walk of life and as a writer myself I feel we are doing disservice to the realities we live with today.

    I like this essay so much and I have this saved in my folder and find it a subject of reference whenever I do write something
    Bravo! Bravo! Braaaaavoooooooo!

    Clap! Clap! Clap! Clap! Clap! Clap! Clap! Clap! Clap!

    Very well said! Well done! And I love the run-on sentences. They will drive the traditionalists crazy!

    Darcy doesn't understand. I write the words as they enter my head. In the speed of lightning the phrases throw themselves from my head to the page. There is no attempt at being crude. What it was written is natural. If I change them to be less "crude" I would be censoring myself. And if the poem I wrote has "shock value" it is because the literary world is so anal and the literary world engages in so much censorship that virtually anything is "shocking". This reinforces my argument that the best work often does not see the light of day for any number of reasons, one of which being a work maybe too "shocking". We have not evolved far enough from the time when Victorians (who were shocked at everything) covered the legs of living room tables with pants because they found the "naked" legs of living room tables to be shocking. In fact, at the present moment we are regressing. Society is becoming more sexually puritanical again and less tolerant and more likely to engage in censorship of authors who do not self-censor themselves.

    Darcy posted a poem which appeared to have a strong element of homosexual desire. I stayed with that theme. Homoerotic sexuality is not crude. Homoerotic sexuality is beautiful! It's too bad we can't celebrated it more openly!

    Your reaction, which is all too common, proves exactly one of my points that the literary world is extremely uptight, puritanical, and often engages in censorship. This is not a personal attack on you Darcy, it is an indictment of the powers that be in the literary world, and the powers that be in the literary world are tremendous obstacles to the creativeness of writers.

    Perhaps your reaction is not much different than the reaction that many had to Lady Chatterley's Lover, Lolita, and many other books that were banned.

    Again, I am not indicting you Darcy, I am indicting the literary world.
    "...the ramblings of a narcissistic, self-obsessed, deranged mind."
    My poetry, plays, novels, & other stuff on Amazon:
    http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=ntt_athr...or=Wolf Larsen

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    Quote Originally Posted by WolfLarsen View Post
    Your reaction, which is all too common, proves exactly one of my points that the literary world is extremely uptight, puritanical, and often engages in censorship. This is not a personal attack... it is an indictment of the powers that be in the literary world, and the powers that be in the literary world are tremendous obstacles to the creativeness of writers.
    Perhaps you need to explore those corners of the 'literary world' that don't conform to your blinkered view. There's a lot of exciting stuff out there.

    And as for your ground-breaking method of writing - 'stream of unconsciousness' was pioneered almost 100 years ago (have a look at Gertrude Stein's 'Tender Buttons' published in 1914). So you're not as revolutionary as you think.

    H

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    I think you are missing the point, here, Hill. I might not agree with Wolflarsen on creativity. But even if he said that word, meaning transformation, as I do, you can't take away a lot of what he is saying by simply labeling it. He's not doing any stream of conciouness here. People often think that if they can name or label something they achieved control over it. Thus useless catalogs were always born and stunk, and acted as canons to achieve too much putrifying stability on the possibilities of evolution and understanding of spheres outside catalogs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WolfLarsen View Post

    JCamilo said:


    This says everything! Porque Brazil e o melhor pais no mundo! Que sorte tem voce! Melhor voce mora aqui com os gringos no frio e eu moro la em Brazil em su lugar. Esta bom? Braaaaziiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiil!

    You see, Camilo does not understand our anal-retentive obsession with Norton's anthology. How could he? He's Brazilian. Only anal-retentive Americans like myself or perhaps anal-retentive Englishmen could possibly understand this anal-retentive obsession with Norton's anthology.
    I do not think you understand well. I have no problem to understand the american need to organize the market in cathegories, in status, in watever. Absolutely, It is very easy to understand.

    Be it Norton, be it Harold Bloom, be It Oprah. Be it one of the hundred antologies of the universe. The point is that the international status of those authors cannt be achived by something so regional as Norton Anthologies. Take Shakespeare, way before Norton he was take in France by Voltaire and in germany by Goethe. Norton influence is just minimal, it is not just modern authors who will fail short from their listing, some olders too.

    And this is very different from the capacity of an author to be canonized. Because Norton is more a reflex than a cause and some canonized authors are notorious for their little reading and there is a huge room for "underground" authors. If that is your revolution, then consider it done 3000 years ago. It is not because I am Brazilian, but you certainly need to build up a better argument to why an author has international fame than the boon of a regional groups.

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    Wolf, ever heard of Arthur Rimbaud? Or Whitman? Or Ginsberg? Ginsberg is really the nail in the coffin of your thesis. If the world of literature at all fit with your conception of it, Ginsberg would not be as famous and as widely read as he is. Non literary types are likely to know his name. Find me an individual who in person and in art presents a purer personification of nonconformity than that homo-sexual drug-using hippy Jew who wrote wild, wild poems back in the 50s.

    You mention the Lady Chatterly Obscenity Trial. Oh, so you've heard. The walls you imagine to still stand were sent toppling down long ago. If a work is rejected now its because of its lack of quality, not its failure to conform. There is an astute liberal readership out there who will read anything of merit. To become a Rowling one must censor oneself, one must conform. But no true artist measures themselves according to such commercial standards. A true artist seeks recognition from other artists first and foremost, and then from a select group of tasteful art-lovers.

    Very well said! Well done! And I love the run-on sentences. They will drive the traditionalists crazy!
    I'm reading Blood Meridian, you know, the book which the establishment critic Harold Bloom has labeled the finest work written in the English language in 25 years, and it has sentences that run on for ages, at least in one instance for an entire page.
    Darcy posted a poem which appeared to have a strong element of homosexual desire. I stayed with that theme. Homoerotic sexuality is not crude. Homoerotic sexuality is beautiful! It's too bad we can't celebrated it more openly!
    WE CAN celebrate homosexuality openly these days. Ginsberg, Ginsberg, Ginsberg.

    Your reaction, which is all too common, proves exactly one of my points that the literary world is extremely uptight, puritanical, and often engages in censorship. This is not a personal attack on you Darcy, it is an indictment of the powers that be in the literary world, and the powers that be in the literary world are tremendous obstacles to the creativeness of writers.
    Yes Wolf, you got me. I reflect the uptight, puritanical spirit of today's publishing world. Me, a bisexual far-left radical atheist, so far left I've gone fallen off the wing, two of whose favourite writers are D.H Lawrence and Henry Miller. I actually to a degree liked your poem, but it is a poor degradation of the initial beauty and brilliance of Shakespeare's sonnet.

    You mention Lolita too. Again, proof of how traditional strictures have been exploded.

    Society is becoming more sexually puritanical again and less tolerant and more likely to engage in censorship of authors who do not self-censor themselves.
    This one honestly made me laugh. Society is by all glaring signs becoming LESS and LESS sexually puritanical and inhibited. Turn on a television. Read the books that are written. Listen to the music. The 60s happened. The sexual mores of today make those of the 60s look Victorian.

    Parts of the publishing world censor for sex, politics, convention. The literary world as a whole censors for quality. Perhaps this is your true beef.
    Last edited by Darcy88; 01-03-2012 at 01:43 PM.

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    The goal of writing should not be to sell books, but to write the most innovative and exciting literature imaginable.

    According to whom? Artists must pay their rent and utilities as much as anyone else.

    Look at all the endless varieties of music! It almost seems that there are as many kinds of music as there are drops of water in the ocean!

    What a different story when you go to the bookstore! In the literature section of the bookstore you will find only novels, short stories, and poetry.


    Hmmmm... last time I went to a book store I found Novels, Short Stories, Epic Poetry, narrative Poetry, Lyrical Poetry, Philosophy, Theology, Art Criticism, Literary Criticism, Biographies, Histories, Travelogues, Romances, Comic Books, Graphic Novels, Essays, Pornography, Children's Books, and I could go on and on. It seems that either your bookstore sucks or you don't know half as much about literature as you would have people think.

    It’s fine to write novels, short stories, and poetry – but why not invent new forms of literature as well?

    Again, it seems that you have little real experience with what varieties of literature are available. Baudelaire, Rimbaud and on through W.S. Merwin have been playing with varieties of "prose poetry". J.L. Borges made a career of blurring the boundaries between fiction and non-fiction, science fiction and philosophy, the short story and literary criticism, etc... There are plenty of writers who have pushed the capabilities of the book and various literary forms, but since when has pushing the boundaries or inventing new art forms been the central goal of art and the artist?

    One of the reasons literature is so limited is that it is still shackled to the major publishing conglomerates and the universities.

    Oh... and the visual arts and music are not equally "shackled" by those institutions that control the flow of money? When has this never been so? When, in you fantasy world, do you imagine that artists will not be beholding to those with the money?

    Publishing houses have one and only one purpose: to make money. They are hostile to innovation in literature, because publishing innovative literature involves risk.

    Hmmm... and yet they continue to churn out books by Anne Carson and Geoffrey Hill and other poets who cannot begin to make money on the level of the best-sellers. They continue to publish new translations of the Shanameh and Beowulf because of the mass audience for those works?

    Contemporary literature of quality needs a home – and that home is not and cannot be the publishing conglomerates – because today’s publishing conglomerates are only concerned with money.

    You haven't learned the first reality of art, have you? Art follows money. Artists need money as well as anyone else and the arts have always thrived where there has been a strong financial support for the endeavors of the artists.

    By a young age Picasso had assimilated the “masters” of the past – and he went on to create new brazen works of art – he departed from the past – and created wonderful CONTEMPORARY masterpieces.

    And what is your point? Don't start citing Picasso unless you think you know enough about him and his artistic development to engage in a real discussion. Picasso in no way rejected the art of the past. Of all the artists of the century he was the one probably the most indebted to the existence of the modern museums. Picasso, like any talented artist, developed his own unique voice. As with many of his Modernist peers he developed a language that was quite different from his immediate predecessors. He did not do so in order to be innovative... he did so because he recognized that the time he lived in demanded a different visual language from that he had inherited from his immediate predecessors. This language, however was quite definitely built upon the achievements of his predecessors.

    Mozart also mastered traditional styles of classical music – and he went on to create music that at his time was INNOVATIVE.

    What are the "traditional styles of classical music"? If you know so much about classical music you will know that the composers a generation or two before Mozart were working at the height of the Baroque era. By the mid-1750's the shift was underway toward "classicism"... less display of virtuosity, a clarity of form, balance, elegance, and an avoidance of extremes of emotion. Mozart inherited a style already fully developed by J.S. Bach's sons, Wilhelm Friedemann Bach, Carl Philipp Emanuel Bach, and Johann Christian Bach, as well as Joseph and Michael Haydn, Baldassare Galuppi, Giovanni Battista Pergolesi, Christoph Willibald Gluck, etc... Mozart has never been deemed as a great innovator, such as Beethoven, Wagner, and Stravinsky, but rather as a composer who took existing forms to the highest level within the language of the classical era. Great art is not always about innovation. J.S. Bach (perhaps the most important figure in Western classical music) was not a great innovator. Neither was Johannes Brahms or Richard Strauss, and yet all remain central figures of classical music.

    Hence, the truly great masters of the recent past – in music (Stravinsky, Mahler), painting (Dali, etc.), sculpture (Rodin) – produced great works that were INNOVATIVE and hence FRESH and EXCITING.

    Yet Mahler was deeply rooted in the music of Wagner while Rodin owed much to Michelangelo, Donatello, and even Jean-Baptiste Carpeaux. Brahms was quite likely one of the most conservative composers of the late 19th century, firmly rooted in the music of Beethoven and rejecting all the innovations wrought by Wagner... and yet Brahms' achievements equal or surpass those of any composer of the era. Again, innovation is not the sole measure of art.

    In contrast, those that worship the past tend to produce works that are stale and flat.

    That's true... but only in the sense that 95%+ of all art is mediocre at best, and so the majority of those firmly rooted in tradition achieve little of any worth... but then again the majority of those iconoclasts who rush headlong into the "new" achieve little more than novelties that are soon dated and rightfully forgotten.

    There are those that argue that first you must learn tradition to be a great writer. By all means I agree you should read as much “great” literature as possible – both traditional and contemporary. But then some of these same people will go on to say “learn the rules before you break them.”

    Most art schools, creative writing departments, and departments of composition push contemporary works of art and contemporary ideas as much as they push the traditional... indeed, probably moreso.

    Forget learning the rules unless you plan to write a conventional essay or a guide to used car repair. In creative literature go ahead and unshackle yourself from all rules! SMASH any and all rules with a sledgehammer, a wrecking ball, or better yet with a pen or a paintbrush! Works of literature, music, painting, etc, should obey no conventional rules whatsoever. If you feel the urge to have rules invent your own! Look at Schoenberg’s 12 tone scale!

    You really don't understand art, do you? All of these great innovators you speak of had the greatest understanding, respects, and profound love of the achievements of their predecessors. Any art school... any creative writing department is full of sophomoric iconoclasts who can rant about revolutions is the arts with the best of them... but will never achieve the least thing of merit for the simple reason that the great innovations in the arts have never been wrought by iconoclasts ignorant and disrespectful of art, but rather by those artists with the deepest love and understanding of the artistic tradition they have inherited. Schoenberg was fully aware of the tradition of classical music... to the point that he could write the most masterful music in the Romantic style he inherited at a young age. His innovations were structured greatly upon the achievements of Wagner and Mahler and Debussy stretching the possibilities of chromaticism. He was also deeply indebted to Brahms' chamber works. Schoenberg simply took these to the logical conclusion... creating a music that conveyed the manner in which the old order was fragmenting in the same way that Cubism and T.S. Eliot's fragments conveyed such. His goal was continue the Austro-Germanic tradition of classical music... not to destroy it.

    Let’s take grammar for example. Obeying the rules of grammar is fine if you’re writing a conventional essay or a manual about car repair. However, when you’re writing creative literature you should write as freely as possible – without rules.

    Why? When you break the traditional rules you are forcing the audience to go outside the inherited artistic language. The question become: "To what purpose?" Breaking the rules simply for the sake of breaking the rules results in little more than meaningless novelty.

    Certainly, if the reader is lazy, ignorant, or simply close-minded he may choose not to apply himself to any literature that is different than what he is used to. Such a person may be more comfortable reading an airport novel or one of the works of the past “greats”.

    This has been the argument of those who have embraced the extremes of the avant-garde for nearly a century: it is all the audience's fault. They're lazy, ignorant, and stupid... unlike myself, the genius visionary artist. It makes for a great defense mechanism... if your art is rejected it is because the audience is too moronic to recognize a profound artistic prophet.

    At times, such a person may have an advanced degree and consider themselves highly cultured and learned, but all those years reading literature that is conventional can make it harder for that person’s brain to concentrate on and grasp anything that’s written in a new and innovative manner.

    My God! We got an answer for everything. If the masses don't like your work, it's because they are but idiots and bumpkins. If the critics, and academics, and others educated in literature don't like your writing, it's because they have become so accustomed to the "conventional" (and what exactly is the "conventional" in literature?) and so they are blind to your genius. You can't lose.

    There are people who look at a Jackson Pollock canvas and say, “My five year old can do a better job than that.” Of course, such people are ignorant of art. Instead of studying art (which they don’t) they take their prejudices (which are pro-representational and pro-realism) and from a position of ignorance and prejudice they proclaim everything that doesn’t conform to their ignorant and prejudiced misconceptions of art to be bad. In the world of literature it is even worse. Those who are ignorant, prejudiced, and close-minded stand in judgment of what is “good literature”.

    Everyone comes to art carrying a degree of ignorance and bias. Art employs a language and a vocabulary that must be learned prior to our understanding it. The artist who intentionally breaks outside of the boundaries of the inherited artistic tradition... the inherited language and vocabulary of a given culture recognizes that this will result in making his or her work more challenging and less accessible. To do so without purpose is merely pretentious.

    Should the writer create works of “literature” easily accessible to even the most ignorant and close-minded of readers? Sure, if he wants to make money or be accepted by the conservative world of academia.

    But of course you are above making money... unlike virtually every artist in the whole of history.

    Frankly, I am rather disappointed with English literature and have ironically found greater inspiration for my writing outside of literature in the other arts (painting, sculpture, architecture, music, modern dance, postmodern theater, etc.). Many of the past “greats” that are in the canon of English literature are not so “great” at all.

    Frankly, I couldn't care less about your opinions. You have not proven yourself with regards to your critical acumen to an extent that I could take your criticism seriously, and you certainly haven't proven your own writing ability as worthy of standing alongside any of the "greats" that you are so quick to dismiss. Indeed, without getting into specifics, you are but making broad sweeping generalizations that have no value whatsoever.

    Many of the “great works” of English literature in the canon were written by “gentleman” with disposable income. Not all of them were talented or had much to say. Is a writer/poet’s work “great” just because it’s included in the Norton Anthology and the professor taught it in your literature 101 class?

    Again, meaningless generalizations: Many of the "great works" were written by rich guys. They can't have had anything worth saying, can they?

    Of course, some “great” works of the past are better than others. Some of these gentleman of leisure in the canon had talent – in addition to the work ethic necessary to produce great literature – but not all of them.

    Many... some... more meaningless generalizations. Anyone can play at this game: "The majority of modern poetry is boring". Who are the "majority"? Why are they boring... and to whom?

    Literature has not even begun to reach its potential. In fact, literature will not even begin to reach its potential until all of humanity has ample food in its stomach and plenty of free time.

    Spoken like a true prophet. We all eagerly await this glowing future in which poverty and hunger (and undoubtedly warfare and violence and disease) have all been eradicated and we are all basking of the glow of an infinity of artistic genius.

    The seed of talent falls where it may. Most of those who have disposable income without having to work for it and thus have plenty of free time to write are inborn, have little or no work ethic, and are of mediocre abilities – like the president of my country George Bush. Besides, the outlook of the leisure class is often conservative, so it would not occur to them to write literature that is innovative.

    More generalities and stereotypes. I won't even waste my time going into composers, artists, and writers who were born wealthy... let alone those who became wealthy through their own efforts and yet continued to create. But doesn't this entire thought go against your earlier notion that real art isn't the product of a desire to make money? By this standard might we not say that those rich guys who didn't need to work... and didn't need to write to make money... approached their writing from a higher ethical position?

    Most people are so engaged in the struggle for survival that they do not have the time to create innovative literature. When humanity is freed from its bondage to an economic system that benefits only a privileged few than a shorter workweek for all will make it possible for more people to create great works of literature, painting, sculpture, etc.

    In a different kind of economy huge amounts of money will not be wasted on maintaining a class of worthless bourgeois bums

    God! What pretension! The middle-class are all but bums... unlike the artistic genius such as yourself who contributes so much to society... by... by... staring at your navel?

    With more money available culture, literature, and the arts would flourish more than ever – because we could improve the quality of education – including teaching more art in the schools – and offering free higher education to all. In such a society, we could also give a modest living stipend to writers and artists. And since more diverse parts of humanity would be free to create great literature – instead of just a small privileged leisure class – literature will have more variety and innovation than ever.

    I gotta find out just what you've been drinking.

    Thus freed from their chains to market forces and academia writers would be free to create a new innovative literature. A general population with a reduced workweek would have more time to read a new revolutionary literature that’s constantly changing and evolving.

    Yep... I really gotta find out what you've been drinking.

    Hence, human civilization is constantly evolving, and as civilization evolves so will literature. And just as human civilization has not even begun to reach its full potential, so the same is true for literature and the other arts.

    Art changes as the artists respond to the world in which they live. Art does not get better or worse. Certainly there are periods and cultures... even cities that have produced more works of artistic genius than others but art is not like science in the manner that the least medical student today knows more about disease and its treatment than the greatest doctors of the 1500s. Perhaps if art never changed... if the goals and standards remained ever stagnant, then we might expect later generations to build upon the achievements of earlier... and surpass them. But such is not the reality. Art, as you suggest, is ever changing and artist will forever struggle in attempting to come to terms with the world and the artistic traditions they have inherited.

    The best contemporary writers of creative literature – those who write today and will be read a hundred two hundred a thousand years from now – will not be those who copy the past but instead those who CONTRIBUTE to the DEVELOPMENT of literature. The writers who will be read a thousand years from now will be those who helped literature to advance.

    Again... the goal is not the development of art. Painters don't sit about pondering how they might contribute to the development of painting. Painting... art... develops as artists respond to the world they live in. Some will dig deeper into the traditions they have inherited, others will turn the traditions on their heads in order to best convey what it is they have to express.

    Traditionalists will argue that it is preferable and natural that literature remain the most backward and conservative medium of the art world. (Compare literature’s snail-like advancement to the great innovations in painting, sculpture, and the other arts since the beginning of modernism in the late 19th Century.) However, there is nothing positive about literature’s relative backwardness compared to the other arts. Even classical music in the past 120 years has left the literary world behind in innovation, boldness, and creativity! How pathetic!

    Your comparison is simply sad because all it does is suggest little grasp of the very real achievements of literature, and very little grasp of just how rooted in the whole of the tradition of painting and classical music modern and contemporary painting and music remain.

    Look – the reason that literature is so backward compared to the other arts can be explained by several simple reasons. The first is money. For a writer to make enough money to support himself comfortably he has to sell A LOT of books. A painter, on the other hand, needs only a few appreciative buyers to support himself.

    Please! Stop now, before you make yourself look more and more foolish. What do you know of the costs incurred by a painter? What do I need to be a poet? A pencil and a notebook... perhaps a computer in the corner of a tiny apartment somewhere. How much does it cost to rent the studio space and pay for the utilities needed in order to have a place to paint? How much do canvases and stretchers coast? Of course I can get around these costs if I have a woodshop and the proper tools. But still the wood and canvas and primer add up. And how expensive is oil paint? Go price some cadmium red on the internet. And what of frames? And then all I gotta do is sell the work... but how do I meet those wealthy patrons who can afford to buy a painting... and how much do I actually need to sell in order to make anything approaching a decent income from a day job?

    Thus, it is easier for the painter to paint whatever he wants. The painter may have to deal with galleries – but he doesn’t have to deal with publishing corporations.

    The galleries ARE the same as the publishing houses. They are there to make money. They only show that which they believe they have an audience for. In return for connecting the artist with the buyer the galleries take between 30%-50% of the market price.

    The painter doesn’t have to consider entertaining a large reading audience primarily looking for cheap entertainment like the writer does.

    No... the visual artist must entertain the wealthy collector. Some are looking for something to communicate their wealth and stability. Others are looking for something that communicates their willingness to take chances. Still others are but bored and looking for something that shocks... for but a moment. A very few have a real eye for art.

    Another conservatising influence (yes I probably just made up a word – good! We writers should make up words more often) – another conservatising influence on the literary world is the whole prestige game. You get your work in certain prestigious “literary” magazines, get nominated for certain prestigious “literary” awards, etc. – and suddenly you’re considered a “great” writer/poet.

    How does this differ from any other art form? If I am given a one-man show at certain prestigious galleries I will certainly be taken seriously by the art press and art collectors. If I am able to demand a certain price and I can get into the museums, my reputation is certainly assured (for at least my lifetime). If the Berlin Philharmonic performs my composition, I will suddenly be in demand. If I am recorded on Deutsche Gramophone with the London Philharmonic, I will assuredly be recognized as a leading figure in music.

    The pages of many (not all) of the most prestigious literary magazines are filled with excrement masquerading as great literature that doesn’t even qualify as mediocre – it’s just plain bad, conservative, and bland.

    And...? The art galleries are filled with equally excretory works as are the concerts of contemporary classical music.

    The same is true for many “literary” awards. An “avant-garde” poet received a very large monetary award recently. I won’t name him here – but his work was so conservative, so dull, so devoid of innovation, so much like a zillion other poems you see everywhere that I don’t see how his poetry could be considered “avant-garde”. I guess for the people giving out the prestigious awards and the money anything that doesn’t rhyme is considered “avant-garde”.

    Again with the generalities. By not naming this poet your complaint is meaningless and comes off as nothing more or less than petty envy.

    It would be a great day for literature if all writers and poets started using the pages of the prestigious literary magazines as toilet paper. We don’t need the editors of the prestigious “literary” magazines to showcase great literature because they don’t even know what literature is – let alone great literature. The same can be said of those who give out prestigious “literary” awards – but maybe I shouldn’t say that – sometimes they actually give money to people who write good poetry!

    More generalities and petty envy.

    With the technology print-on-demand books that are not commercial can now be made available to the general public. For the first time ever the general public can purchase and read all kinds of works of literature that were never available before.

    Technology is changing the game in how literature, music, film, and art are marketed. There is no profound revelation there. Most artists recognize this and struggle with trying to come to terms with the new technologies. The notion that this represents some Utopian future in which the artist will be in complete control of his or her endeavors is naive in the least.

    Something you may want to ask yourself is – why do you write? Do you write to make money? Do you write for prestige and acclaim? Do you write with the opinions of others in mind? Or do you write because you have to create?

    Gee! Thanks Wolf. I don't know what we would have done without you. I mean surely none of us who create works of art of any genre had even thought to ever sit down and ask ourselves just what our goals were.

    If the reason that you write is that you have to create than money, prestige, and the opinions of others are all secondary. Creating innovative works of literature is probably not going to make you money or give you prestige and acclaim anytime soon. And like many others who were creative – like Gauguin, Mahler, Rodin, etc. – you will receive endless harsh attacks.

    Gauguin did? I thought he was largely ignored and ended up dying in French Polynesia of a combination of syphilis, morphine, and a weak heart. Even then he was supported by the leading Parisian dealer, Ambroise Vollard. Mahler? His own music seems to have had responses. The public seems to have quite liked his music (to the point that by his death there had been over 260 performances of his symphonies across Europe and the US), but critics and many musicians and singers were resentful of his dictatorial conducting style which insisted on the highest standards. And Rodin? He struggled early on... as most artists do, but by mid-career he was awarded endless official and private commissions as well as awards and prizes. While still alive, his studio/home was officially converted into the Musée Rodin.

    Let others make all the money from their airport novels, let others receive all the prestige and acclaim for their conventional banal “poetry”. Let others receive all the applause for their conservative traditional works written in “good taste”. Their work will wither into dust over time. A hundred years from now no one will be reading their novels, poems, and plays.

    Nor will they be reading 95%+ of the stuff written by those aspiring to be "serious" writers revolutionizing literature. In the mean time, the artist/writer needs to pay rent and support his or her family.

    Nearly everything ever painted, sculpted, or written in “good taste” later withered and died with time. “Good taste” is nothing more than what is in fashion at the time – and as time passes what was in “good taste” centuries ago becomes trivial.

    Yesterday's "good taste" is today's "avant garde" and "shock art".

    Many of the masters of the past in literature, painting, sculpture, and music were nothing less than innovators and revolutionaries in their time. Their work often caused controversy because they were not enslaved to tradition. They did not care about “good taste”. They could give a damn about the opinions of others.

    Neither could they care the least about manifestos proscribing what art is... including your own.

    The literary world as a whole censors for quality. Perhaps this is your true beef.

    Beware of the man with just one book. -Ovid
    The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the man who can't read them.- Mark Twain
    My Blog: Of Delicious Recoil
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  14. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by hillwalker View Post
    Perhaps you need to explore those corners of the 'literary world' that don't conform to your blinkered view. There's a lot of exciting stuff out there.

    And as for your ground-breaking method of writing - 'stream of unconsciousness' was pioneered almost 100 years ago (have a look at Gertrude Stein's 'Tender Buttons' published in 1914). So you're not as revolutionary as you think.

    H

    I have read Wolf's To the Light House and I read repeatedly and I found them unappealing though she wrote to experiment with something innovative. She skipped over the traditionalist way and yet she complicated the literary style more and making her books unreadable and more academic that could be just the text book type for some literary critics to work on or pride over their pedantic knowledge. And why not literature simple and why philosophy, art should be within the grab of the few pedants only. I have tried to read Ulysses like hell and finally I gave up. I have a choice and I can enjoy some lighter stuffs and even Tolstoy is simple, Dostoevsky is not that tough. These few weirdo think they are above and beyond the reach of the common reader like myself. I hate to wrack my mind with their trashy ideas and this thread starter has something to share, some revolutionary ideas that lays before me endless possibilities and I enjoy reading such stuffs and indeed we live not in a classical age and we have different values, many things to do with a very little time at hand

  15. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafolini View Post
    I think you are missing the point, here, Hill. I might not agree with Wolflarsen on creativity. But even if he said that word, meaning transformation, as I do, you can't take away a lot of what he is saying by simply labeling it. He's not doing any stream of conciouness here. People often think that if they can name or label something they achieved control over it.
    I’m afraid I disagree. I’m not attempting to undermine his arguments by labelling the way Wolf Larsen writes (and so achieve control over it - how ludicrous would that be).

    To quote the man himself:

    Quote Originally Posted by WolfLarsen View Post
    I write the words as they enter my head. In the speed of lightning the phrases throw themselves from my head to the page. There is no attempt at being crude. What it was written is natural. If I change them to be less "crude" I would be censoring myself.
    Most would call that method of writing ‘stream of consciousness’ – it’s not belittling what he is doing by describing it in such terms. And it’s interesting to note that Gertrude Stein herself detested the term ‘stream of consciousness’. She resisted attempts to pigeon-hole her style, insisting she was writing ‘stream of unconsciousness’ literature because there was no conscious effort made to guide her creative flow. Does that ring any bells?

    I commend Wolf’s endeavours to extend literature beyond conventional limits. But he’s confusing editing with censorship and populist writing with literature. His mission to change the world is doomed at the first step because he has no comprehension of what it is he is trying to change. Insisting the ‘literary world’ still adheres to Victorian values is absurd. Charges of obscenity and blasphemy have no doubt been aimed at the ‘literary world’ by conventional, secular (non-literary) society since man learned to write. Surely the criminal case against Lady Chatterley’s Lover would never have come about had it not been published by the ‘literary world’. Dismissing most literature that predates his oeuvre as puritanical and short-sighted is ridiculous.

    I agree that much of mainstream (‘airport’) literature is deplorable. Celebrities cashing in on their names by ‘writing’ an updated autobiography each year, formulaic thrillers and undemanding, pretentious fluff that passes as contemporary fiction. But it’s not the fault of the ‘literary world’ that these books sell better than material that makes demands on its readers. The media is desperate to support dumbing down. An audience that is easier to please is cheaper to entertain. It’s all about the dollar.

    Wolf’s writing attempts to defy description – but basically he’s displaying atrocity as an art form. It’s already been done before: Luis Bunuel, David Cronenberg, David Lynch, Francis Bacon, Heironymous Bosch, Kurt Vonnegut Jr., Christopher Brookmyre, J G Ballard… I could go on. But the one thing that all the above have in common is talent. Without talent it is pointless trying to revolutionise literature – unless Wolf is advocating more dumbing down (which seems to contradict what he has set out to do).

    Which brings us perhaps to what he is really trying to do. His guerrilla tactics to undermine any attempts on these pages to critique work subjectively is certainly anti-establishment. Presumably he considers me a fuddy-duddy because I won’t put up with lazy or shoddy writing. He has recently suggested to a number of aspiring writers on here that they ignore well-intentioned, constructive criticism because altering their work is conforming to the puritanical norm. They are giving in to literary censorship by accepting advice. How is that going to help anyone? It certainly isn’t going to allow those who have requested feedback to develop their writing skills. It’s merely promoting the misguided idea that everyone is a genius.

    Is any editor going to suggest to Stephen King that he cut down on his flannel, or plead with James Paterson that he learn the basic skills of writing and stop churning out drivel? No, because neither feels obliged to answer their critics any more. They earn their publishers millions. Wolf seems to be of a similar mindset… except that he has yet to sell books by the container load. His attempts to hijack these forums in order to promote this misguided agenda that anything goes, and his one-man mission to revolutionise (or is that destroy?) the medium that so far has been intent on not publishing his masterpieces is desperate and will prove to be self-defeating.

    Talent will out.

    H

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