Lady Chatterley's Lover

[osho]

Well, I ask different questions than you. There is nothing inspiring to look at those who failed. In other word, to look at those who are chasing a shadow. It can make us only depressed. No wonder so many people use Prozac. Doing the same again and again but expecting different results...... is insanity.
It we want a different result we need to change our behavior. I prefer to look at those who succeeded and to learn from them.

Is there a yardstick of success in relationship? How can we make sure somebody is really and unfailingly successful at building a true relationship? Man and woman may behave in like manner outwardly and people are too clever to be pretentious and can masquerade their real natures and weaknesses and behave amicably and yet beneath their masked persona he or she may live in a different world. It is the most challenging job to know human nature. With this said however I never mean there are not good characters to follow and learn from. There could be. I have read one article in an international papers about Mahatma Gandhi, the most revered person in India and yet he had a licentious relationship with women in spite of his illustrious advocacy for chastity and if the Illustrious Gandhi failed what about the lesser humans? I am unsure real chastity and purity exist even today. I wonder who will be that last modern man / woman who can keep it to himself or her self

[ftil]

It is a good question how do we know. It definitely requires having emotional awareness to know that. We don’t perceive it through a left brain but a right one. But even if people don’t have emotional awareness, they still can recognize a mask that people put to impress others. 84-93% of our communication is transmitted via body language. It takes some practice to recognize incongruency between verbal and not verbal communication that is a visible sign of games or dishonesty. Virginia Satir called people who have congruency as levelers. I can say that if people are in a presence of a person whose verbal and nonverbal communication is congruent, they will know it. But if they don’t, they have to do some emotional healing to perceive it. In the end of the day, nobody who is emotionally numb or has a low level of emotional awareness can have deep and intimate relationships. It is as simple as that yet difficult to many.

[osho]

Emotional awareness is something interesting to know about. We all are masks and in fact what pops up inside our heads never goes explicit and most of our thoughts are censored and we sift them through social endorsements prior to unfolding our thoughts. What we call manners, etiquettes, social mores and moral codes are external veneers and any thoughts or impulses that arise within us can wash them away in a while. No matter what righteous and moral altitudes one assumes and the tower of all this will be torn down by the strong gust of impulses. We weaklings, beasts standing on two legs have something funny and bizarre inside them and once we get engulfed by our desires we do away with what we have been told or instructed upon. Our standings are fair-seasoned statures, They fall dawn at any times wildly and all we remain is a heap of instincts, primal instincts and you have marvelously put forth them through your wonderful presentations of arts and paintings.

[ftil]

Emotional awareness is something interesting to know about. We all are masks and in fact what pops up inside our heads never goes explicit and most of our thoughts are censored and we sift them through social endorsements prior to unfolding our thoughts. What we call manners, etiquettes, social mores and moral codes are external veneers and any thoughts or impulses that arise within us can wash them away in a while. No matter what righteous and moral altitudes one assumes and the tower of all this will be torn down by the strong gust of impulses. We weaklings, beasts standing on two legs have something funny and bizarre inside them and once we get engulfed by our desires we do away with what we have been told or instructed upon. Our standings are fair-seasoned statures, They fall dawn at any times wildly and all we remain is a heap of instincts, primal instincts and you have marvelously put forth them through your wonderful presentations of arts and paintings.

LOL! I agree that some people may fit into that category. But it would be very sad to see people as a beasts run by instincts, indeed. Darwin would have to change his theory from evolution ....to devolution Don’t you think that we got minds and hearts for a reason? I guess you haven’t met people who are not mask but who have integrity. Making generalization is dangerous. But if you choose to see people as a mask and beast run by instincts…….you will only attract those kind of people.

[osho]

LOL! I agree that some people may fit into that category. But it would be very sad to see people as a beasts run by instincts, indeed. Darwin would have to change his theory from evolution ....to devolution Don’t you think that we got minds and hearts for a reason? I guess you haven’t met people who are not mask but who have integrity. Making generalization is dangerous. But if you choose to see people as a mask and beast run by instincts…….you will only attract those kind of people.

We have integrity and in fact every man and woman how high or low he is. There is a the lowest point they cannot be lower than that and there is a pinnacle one cannot climb higher than that. We all have the lowliness of everyone and it is a matter of degrees and everyone is gullible. Mythology, you have read lengthily endorses this fact.

[ftil]

We have integrity and in fact every man and woman how high or low he is. There is a the lowest point they cannot be lower than that and there is a pinnacle one cannot climb higher than that. We all have the lowliness of everyone and it is a matter of degrees and everyone is gullible. Mythology, you have read lengthily endorses this fact.

I have a different understanding of integrity. People who have integrity have a high level of self awareness and emotional awareness. You can’t say that a person has integrity if he or she has a poorly defined self but reasonable level of pseudo self. Those are people whom you have described as having a mask.

I have noticed that you like making generalizations and you are trying to simplify it. People are unique but some are inner directed. In other words, they have a strong self of self and they don’t have chronic anxiety and less emotional fusion in close relationships, therefore, they have more energy available to pursue goal oriented activity. In contrary, those who operate on a pseudo self experience a high level emotional intensity. It is a pseudo self that is vulnerable to being molded by others. It is a pseudo self that fuses with others, reacting to beliefs, attitudes, and values of others and trying to change them. It is a pseudo self that is gullible.
I am not interested in people who have pseudo self. We can’t learn from them how to have deep and intimate relationships. In fact, their relationships are an example of living in a hell with high level of anxiety that they try to release in many ways, not healthy ways though.

[osho]

I have a different understanding of integrity. People who have integrity have a high level of self awareness and emotional awareness. You can’t say that a person has integrity if he or she has a poorly defined self but reasonable level of pseudo self. Those are people whom you have described as having a mask.

I have noticed that you like making generalizations and you are trying to simplify it. People are unique but some are inner directed. In other words, they have a strong self of self and they don’t have chronic anxiety and less emotional fusion in close relationships, therefore, they have more energy available to pursue goal oriented activity. In contrary, those who operate on a pseudo self experience a high level emotional intensity. It is a pseudo self that is vulnerable to being molded by others. It is a pseudo self that fuses with others, reacting to beliefs, attitudes, and values of others and trying to change them. It is a pseudo self that is gullible.
I am not interested in people who have pseudo self. We can’t learn from them how to have deep and intimate relationships. In fact, their relationships are an example of living in a hell with high level of anxiety that they try to release in many ways, not healthy ways though.

I second your idea that people are unique and yes it is really to caste somebody in a particular mold and we cannot easily forecast who is who and only by studying their external behaviors, looks or something others have said about them we may misjudge or misquote their real natures. How they appear to us externally may not be representative what they actually are and what they seem may be masks, other than what they are. That is why most relationship fade in a while and in the west it does fail so fast and in the east too now with more and more people are getting exposed to western society and values are likely to break their relationships. Men are naturally free beings and societies and so called matrimonial relations or institutions cannot run far enough and though they idealize their intimacy in a short time they tend to crave their natural instincts.

[ftil]

I second your idea that people are unique and yes it is really to caste somebody in a particular mold and we cannot easily forecast who is who and only by studying their external behaviors, looks or something others have said about them we may misjudge or misquote their real natures. How they appear to us externally may not be representative what they actually are and what they seem may be masks, other than what they are. That is why most relationship fade in a while and in the west it does fail so fast and in the east too now with more and more people are getting exposed to western society and values are likely to break their relationships. Men are naturally free beings and societies and so called matrimonial relations or institutions cannot run far enough and though they idealize their intimacy in a short time they tend to crave their natural instincts.

You choose to believe that people are just mask and everybody is the same. Sad, indeed. You think that you have found a solution for marital or relationships problems. I am not going to convince you otherwise.
Well, we may end our discussion. I don’t want to repeat myself. On a final note, I can say that I have met a great men and women. They do exist, however, they are minority. They are not run by instincts but make a full use of their minds and hearts. Brilliant minds with big hearts. Trust me, they don’t waste their time to talk about sex……they enjoy experiencing it.

[osho]

You choose to believe that people are just mask and everybody is the same. Sad, indeed. You think that you have found a solution for marital or relationships problems. I am not going to convince you otherwise.
Well, we may end our discussion. I don’t want to repeat myself. On a final note, I can say that I have met a great men and women. They do exist, however, they are minority. They are not run by instincts but make a full use of their minds and hearts. Brilliant minds with big hearts. Trust me, they don’t waste their time to talk about sex……they enjoy experiencing it.

There is a gulf between our understanding of the world we are living in. I do not want to conclude and most of what I talked about not necessarily comes from my direct experiences and most of them are derived, something I read in books, gathered from movies and dramas and maybe the real world functions differently than what I perceive or assume and I am still on the threshold of understanding it and maybe you have certain experiences and beliefs and when what I talked become incongruous to what you have understood and this may then turn out to be an irritant and you may find my thoughts discomforting though I never meant to hurt you. And I do not claim all I had argued rashly is what I really live by and stand for. They are not necessarily my ideologies and ideologies, thoughts, beliefs, relations all undergo shifts in this world and one does not become intellectually the same person after going through different phases in life

[ftil]

There is a gulf between our understanding of the world we are living in. I do not want to conclude and most of what I talked about not necessarily comes from my direct experiences and most of them are derived, something I read in books, gathered from movies and dramas and maybe the real world functions differently than what I perceive or assume and I am still on the threshold of understanding it and maybe you have certain experiences and beliefs and when what I talked become incongruous to what you have understood and this may then turn out to be an irritant and you may find my thoughts discomforting though I never meant to hurt you. And I do not claim all I had argued rashly is what I really live by and stand for. They are not necessarily my ideologies and ideologies, thoughts, beliefs, relations all undergo shifts in this world and one does not become intellectually the same person after going through different phases in life

You didn’t hurt me. I have realized that we can’t find a common ground. To be honest, it is depressing to think that humans like animals are run by instincts. Well, animals don’t have any desire to create, to passionately live their lives, or passionately love. They don’t need to use their brains either. I have a very different view of humans. Yes, some may fit into that category...but are they really humans? Perhaps, Rudolf Steiner was right when he talked about pre Adamic people that is people who are a link between 2D and 3D consciousness. I wound never take seriously any channeled material, however, Knight Jadczyk also talked about organic people that is people who don’t have souls. I am very aware of people who are empty without insights or feelings and I am not the only one.

Second, when I speak, it comes from my experience. I love studying but any theory is useless if I can’t experience and evaluate it. I don’t take seriously movies, dramas, or novels to get the understanding of human problems. I hope that it would help you to understand where I am coming from.

[osho]

You didn’t hurt me. I have realized that we can’t find a common ground. To be honest, it is depressing to think that humans like animals are run by instincts. Well, animals don’t have any desire to create, to passionately live their lives, or passionately love. They don’t need to use their brains either. I have a very different view of humans. Yes, some may fit into that category...but are they really humans? Perhaps, Rudolf Steiner was right when he talked about pre Adamic people that is people who are a link between 2D and 3D consciousness. I wound never take seriously any channeled material, however, Knight Jadczyk also talked about organic people that is people who don’t have souls. I am very aware of people who are empty without insights or feelings and I am not the only one.

Second, when I speak, it comes from my experience. I love studying but any theory is useless if I can’t experience and evaluate it. I don’t take seriously movies, dramas, or novels to get the understanding of human problems. I hope that it would help you to understand where I am coming from.

I like your ideas of not getting novels, books or movies to influence your thoughts and of course I always appreciate this and even if I am unable to sidestep such sources I am trying this out through meditation. Meditation to me is not a ritual and to empty my mind of the things I have pursued. I am unsure whether I can free myself of all these elements. At times I wish I were a farmer living in a conservative society and live by what my parents, grandpas and the rest of ancestors did. I know for certain what I speak about comes from different sources and about that I myself remain somewhat indecisive , vacillating between thoughts. That I resist your ideas does not mean I wholeheartedly am doing so and sometimes for the sake of arguments I go thus far. What I write always does not reflect what one is and there are two lives most people live: one the emotional life and the other rational life as beautifully illustrated in Daniels Goldman’s Emotional Intelligence

[ftil]

I like your ideas of not getting novels, books or movies to influence your thoughts and of course I always appreciate this and even if I am unable to sidestep such sources I am trying this out through meditation. Meditation to me is not a ritual and to empty my mind of the things I have pursued. I am unsure whether I can free myself of all these elements. At times I wish I were a farmer living in a conservative society and live by what my parents, grandpas and the rest of ancestors did. I know for certain what I speak about comes from different sources and about that I myself remain somewhat indecisive , vacillating between thoughts. That I resist your ideas does not mean I wholeheartedly am doing so and sometimes for the sake of arguments I go thus far. What I write always does not reflect what one is and there are two lives most people live: one the emotional life and the other rational life as beautifully illustrated in Daniels Goldman’s Emotional Intelligence

Some people enjoy meditating. I have tried but it doesn’t work for me. In fact, meditation takes me away from my feelings and I don’t like having empty mind. How we can get to know our innermost feelings and our core beliefs……..if we have empty mind?

I don’t understand how expressing ideas that you do not necessarily agree with can help to foster understanding. Or, perhaps, it is a male approach …to have discussion for sake of having discussion.

I think that you misunderstood Goldman’s concept. Yes, we may simplify it and say that we have emotional and rational mind. But it is not separate. Some people tend to use rational mind whereas others use emotional mind and are quite reactive. Both approaches indicate low or absent emotional awareness. The key is to use both at the same time. In other words, we need to feel, think, and then act. Those with high level of anxiety feel and react. But we need to use our minds to its fullest to be aware of our defenses or when we become reactive.

[Paulclem]

Some people enjoy meditating. I have tried but it doesn’t work for me. In fact, meditation takes me away from my feelings and I don’t like having empty mind. How we can get to know our innermost feelings and our core beliefs……..if we have empty mind?

Excuse me for butting in, but most meditation is not about emptying the mind. Meditation is most often used to contemplate things/ ideas/ concepts.

[ftil]

Excuse me for butting in, but most meditation is not about emptying the mind. Meditation is most often used to contemplate things/ ideas/ concepts.

I knew that you are going to show up here. You don’t contemplate your idea in meditation. The purpose is to empty one’s mind. Some people sit quietly while others do chant but the result is the same. Empty mind. Bronte Baxter’s spent 17 years studying and practicing Maharishi and I couldn’t say it better.

“Brahman", what Tolle calls “Presence,” does bring euphoric peace to the experiencer. The grave is peaceful, too, but I wouldn’t want to spend time in one. There is peace when an individual surrenders their personal self. Gone is the responsibility of making choices, of finding motivation, of coming up with creative solutions. Gone is the need to think and the sting of emotional repercussions from former bad decisions. The enlightened need to do nothing, say nothing, become nothing. But to achieve that iced-over state of detachment, that cosmic disassociation, they must sacrifice the most precious thing they have ever been given: their personal divine spark. The enlightened willfully self-implode. And God’s very purpose for making them, as a unique, personal expression of Itself, gets subverted.

And what did Maharishi procure for? The Vedic gods. He sold us a meaningless word that was supposed to guide our minds to transcend superficial consciousness. Later we learned those meaningless words, our mantras, were names of deities. He taught us advanced techniques with the Sanskrit word “namah” at their core: “I bow down.” Mantra meditation is a form of paying worship to those who call themselves gods. When you scrape away all the fancy and misleading explanations – like “meaningless sounds” and “impulses of creative intelligence,” what you get very simply is people with their eyes closed bowing down in their minds to an assigned Hindu deity.
http://brontebaxter.wordpress.com/about/

How practicing empty mind, ego-less state, lack of individuality, creativity, and passions can relate to our discussion? Well, if people don’t feel and their bodies are dead, how their love making be passionate? They may only feel sexual energy but it has nothing to do with feelings and passion. How an ego-less person or a better term a person with a weak sense of self can have a deep and fulfilling relationships? Impossible! They can only build codependent relationships…..a prescription to live in a hell. How long sexual passion will last if a partner has an empty mind void of individuality and creativity......... People do much more in their lives than….24/7 making love.

[osho]

I knew that you are going to show up here. You don’t contemplate your idea in meditation. The purpose is to empty one’s mind. Some people sit quietly while others do chant but the result is the same. Empty mind. Bronte Baxter’s spent 17 years studying and practicing Maharishi and I couldn’t say it better.



How practicing empty mind, ego-less state, lack of individuality, creativity, and passions can relate to our discussion? Well, if people don’t feel and their bodies are dead, how their love making be passionate? They may only feel sexual energy but it has nothing to do with feelings and passion. How an ego-less person or a better term a person with a weak sense of self can have a deep and fulfilling relationships? Impossible! They can only build codependent relationships…..a prescription to live in a hell. How long sexual passion will last if a partner has an empty mind void of individuality and creativity......... People do much more in their lives than….24/7 making love.

Lovemaking becomes passionate and full of life when we involve ourselves in the act and do not dragged away by second thought. Man and woman could be real enjoyers had they not been hardwired to think uncooperatively. They had cultures, taboos, mores and the like impeding, in fact crippling them and all these heaps of "what others said", what others will say" or "what if others know this" and the like. This is ridiculous and we live by certain myths and do not get directed by our natural instincts. And when man and of course woman too are in this state, a very depressing state they take refuge in sex and this can go to the limit of 24 / 7 making love. The juice that is generated will dry up and the act of sex then becomes an robotic act, man over woman and vice versa and at the end of the day what remains of them is hatred, doubt, erratic nauseas and one makes hell out of all these affairs. We are capable of loving and being loved if we do not become so much skeptical of each other. Every man has something to dip in the ocean of love in every woman. The swimmer and the swum must be in perfect unison. Count out your prejudices, religions and teachings and live the way you want, the way the eagle flies defying the eternity that seems to delimit his impetus. Let us learn to trust for today the one and only panacea is love and trust. Today the spring that manufactures generosity, love, understanding, empathy in our heart has dried up and we have a penchant for looking at things through a rational lens, a rational lens is opaque and we cannot see beauty thorough this since this lens is made of only intellect and doubt and thought.