Why I Don't Believe In God

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

When I was an atheist, I was worse than anyone in these fora. I was a militant atheist before militant atheism was cool. I could outlast anyone on the subject of God. Now, I feel horrible about the things I said to various Christians, who ranged from relatives to ministers. In retrospect, the interesting thing was that I, who ostensibly did not believe in God, was so interested in discussing Him. For me, that sort of behavior was a sort of searching. The truth was, I think, that more than NOT believing in God, I was angry that I couldn't believe in Him. None think about God more than atheists--at least, none more than I.

I think this is the case for many atheists, including me, though anger may be too strong a word--frustrated works better; it's a little less harsh. I became an atheist after trying to believe in God, or some sort of religion (several of which I tried), but just couldn't do it. It was almost a sort of jealousy that formed. I've said this before, but I think maybe one day I will leave the label of being an atheist behind.

[Calidore]

It's dangerous for people to allow a religion to tell them who to judge and how to judge them. It creates a mental sickness that does endanger us all.

I'll submit that religion is simply a tool. Some people use it to make themselves better, and some use it to justify and excuse their own evil. Religion isn't the problem; people are.

[Varenne Rodin]

It's dangerous for people to allow a discredited worldview to be the arbiter of truth. It creates a mental sickness that endangers us all.

Arbiter of truth? You don't know what my world view is. I love everyone. I'm sad when people hurt each other, and animals, and the earth. I don't judge people harshly for arbitrary reasons, I look at whether they're hurting someone and if they are I'll say it's not cool. How could that be dangerous to anyone?

[stuntpickle]

It doesn't sound like you were ever really an atheist. That anger you're talking about seems like a wanting to believe in something, whether it be God or not God. I, for one, don't feel that way. I feel happy and free, so long as no one tries to hurt me for not joining a group. Maybe you were a Christian in your heart and mind all along and had an inner struggle with that. I won't presume to know. Generally though, I can tell you that a lot of atheists are happy to be without religion.

I assure you that I was an atheist. In fact, I would have considered myself a truer atheist than you. Most modern varieties of atheism are fairly vacuous--especially the sort of absurdly peppy scientism I see here. You see, Sartre said it best, materialism can never distinguish between humans and rocks. I was what is called an eliminative materialist, and I followed the type of worldview that you dabble in to its ultimate nihilistic core. The happy atheism you're talking about is a fairly ridiculous modern phenomenon. The great intellectual atheism of Sartre was primarily concerned with terror. Nietzsche thought atheism was a catastrophe. Only people like Dawkins think atheism is a choice on par with picking out a pair of shoes. Only a lifelong love of art and literature defeated my bleak worldview. God is, after all, the greatest artist.

[Theunderground]

Nietzsche though atheism the starting point of a clean rigorous intellect,though maybe a massive hurdle for humanity at large.

[Varenne Rodin]

I'll submit that religion is simply a tool. Some people use it to make themselves better, and some use it to justify and excuse their own evil. Religion isn't the problem; people are.

I agree with that, but I never saw my mom as an evil person. She's not as bright as she used to be. Her church friends and bible study group cited biblical references for why my brother Kenny died, and she believed them. She cries as she talks about it. "At first I wanted to be mad at God, but he knows best. He has a plan." Pretty sick plan, if you ask me. Obviously, I don't believe it was the plan of a god. People contributed to his death, and people justified it. People who never met him gave her the reasons for how he had been "bad". It doesn't give her comfort, and she has become cruel to me when I say it's not a nice way to think about the son she loved for 34 years.

I can't place the blame on texts. People either drink the kool-aid or they don't. Scary times for those of us who don't.

[BienvenuJDC]

I'll submit that religion is simply a tool. Some people use it to make themselves better, and some use it to justify and excuse their own evil. Religion isn't the problem; people are.

This is a GEM of a statement. I've seen very pious individuals who were evil people use religion in the most heinous judgmental ways. Religion does not make one righteous. Having a good heart and a benevolent mindset is the first step to being righteous (but one can never truly be righteous). There are more evil religious people, than there are good.

[Varenne Rodin]

I assure you that I was an atheist. In fact, I would have considered myself a truer atheist than you. Most modern varieties of atheism are fairly vacuous--especially the sort of absurdly peppy scientism I see here. You see, Sartre said it best, materialism can never distinguish between humans and rocks. I was what is called an eliminative materialist, and I followed the type of worldview that you dabble in to its ultimate nihilistic core. The happy atheism you're talking about is a fairly ridiculous modern phenomenon. The great intellectual atheism of Sartre was primarily concerned with terror. Nietzsche thought atheism was a catastrophe. Only people like Dawkins think atheism is a choice on par with picking out a pair of shoes. Only a lifelong love of art and literature defeated my bleak worldview. God is, after all, the greatest artist.

Don't tell me I'm not a true atheist because I'm a "peppy" scientist. It has nothing to do with me if you dislike nice people. I'm not injuring you or offending atheism by being sweet. The only thing that could ever give me a "bleak world view" are people like you who hate me for no good reason. I like you anyway. You use a lot of big words and that is marvelous. You seem as much at war with yourself as you are with anyone else, and that's interesting, but I hope you will learn what it means to be kind to other human beings in your lifetime. It feels good to know you're not inflicting damage on anyone. Best wishes.

[stuntpickle]

Nietzsche though atheism the starting point of a clean rigorous intellect,though maybe a massive hurdle for humanity at large.

Nietzsche defined atheism as "..the awe-inspiring catastrophe of two-thousand years of training in truthfulness that finally forbids itself the lie involved in belief in God."

I don't think you fully grasp what Nietzsche thought, which was that atheism was an excruciating revelation.

[Varenne Rodin]

Nietzsche defined atheism as "..the awe-inspiring catastrophe of two-thousand years of training in truthfulness that finally forbids itself the lie involved in belief in God."

I don't think you fully grasp what Nietzsche thought, which was that atheism was an excruciating revelation.

Excruciating if a person is too weak to handle it. Many people are. They fall back on the crutch and feel angry with people who have successfully made it out. Go ahead and call me vacuous again, Christian.

[stuntpickle]

Don't tell me I'm not a true atheist because I'm a "peppy" scientist. It has nothing to do with me if you dislike nice people. I'm not injuring you or offending atheism by being sweet. The only thing that could ever give me a "bleak world view" are people like you who hate me for no good reason. I like you anyway. You use a lot of big words and that is marvelous. You seem as much at war with yourself as you are with anyone else, and that's interesting, but I hope you will learn what it means to be kind to other human beings in your lifetime. It feels good to know you're not inflicting damage on anyone. Best wishes.

What I'm saying is that I think you're about as atheist as the average person is existentialist. I think it's just a badge of identification like most anything in society, just like being Republican or pro-choice. I base this on my observation of what seems to be an inadequate capacity to justify the most basic assertions you make. You seem to believe things without knowing why, which is the foremost symptom of believing nothing. You can repeat parts of a script, but when pressed to depart from that script, you crumble. You don't even try, you simply run. Moreover, you seem unaware that you're doing that.

[Varenne Rodin]

What I'm saying is that I think you're about as atheist as the average person is existentialist. I think it's just a badge of identification like most anything in society, just like being Republican or pro-choice. I base this on my observation of what seems to be an inadequate capacity to justify the most basic assertions you make. You seem to believe things without knowing why, which is the foremost symptom of believing nothing. You can repeat parts of a script, but when pressed to depart from that script, you crumble. You don't even try, you simply run. Moreover, you seem unaware that you're doing that.

I don't believe things without knowing why. If it's inadequate for me to sit back watching you rant and refraining from giving you years long science lessons, then I concede to being inadequate to the task of removing your head from the dark place in which it is firmly lodged. Do you expect me to make you sensitive to my point of view by magic? Maybe if I had a special point of view gun, I could zap you full of life experiences. I don't pretend to know everything. It's close to the opposite. People have made guesses and formed groups around them. I'm not part of any group. Lots of atheists don't organize with one specific idea to push. I'm just living an enjoyable life of sculpting, and reading, and playing Xbox on Sundays instead of going to church to worship less-than-vapor. Don't worry, I'm not trying to make you have as much fun as I do.

If you think me so beneath conversation, you're pretty persistently vapid to continue to exchange words with me. I actually like this conversation. When you persist in engaging in an activity you hate, you've developed quite a fixation. Peace.

[papayahed]

~

R e m i n d e r

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[Varenne Rodin]

Am I the one ranting?

If you, as you say, don't believe things without knowing why, please demonstrate with a rational, consequential series of statements the truth of your assertion that belief in God, who is unseen and unheard, can ONLY be a delusion.

Done and done. People who want to know the definition of "delusion" can Google it or go back a few pages to where it was posted in this thread. That should conclude our conversation. Thanks.

[Varenne Rodin]

My first thought on reading this was that I certainly didn't mean to imply your mom was evil, which upon thinking it through made me realize where Bien was coming from with her "homosexuality is bad but homosexuals aren't." And of course, I already know perfectly well that you can't define an entire person by a single quality, so obviously I'm just thinking slow and typing fast this morning. My apologies for any mistaken impressions I've given.



Times have always been scary for non-lemmings, but they're not as bad as they used to be. The big question is whether our collective maturing will ever outpace our destructive capability.

Oh, no no. It's ok. I knew you weren't saying my mom was evil. You spoke well and I don't think I've ever seen an unkind post from you.