9/11 - Where Were You?

[stlukesguild]

I think our country, in being called America, indicates its intention to dominate. I wonder if it was planned from the beginning, to be named United States of America and then call us America.

The term "America" was employed by the German cartographer Martin Waldseemüller in Saint-Dié-des-Vosges in France in a map intended to show the divide between the "Americas" and Asia. The term was a Latinized variation upon the name of the Florentine explorer, Amerigo Vespucci'. It certainly had nothing whatsoever to do with the terms used by the natives of the North or South American continents prior to their discovery by the Europeans.

The term "Americans" should refer to the indigenous people of these continents. But we decided to call them Indians and thereby make them foreigners in their own land.

It would seem to me that whether we employed the term "Indian" or "American" we are attaching a European name to the people living in the Americas that has nothing to do with what they call themselves. Of course the whole argument is but another example of politically correct thought taken to the usual level of absurdity. No one complains that the French refer to Deutschland as "Allemagne" and the English-speaking world calls it "Germany". I haven't heard anyone complaining when someone uses the term "Florence" as opposed to "Firenze". The whole issue is simply one more means of criticizing the United States of America over essentially nothing.

Indigenous People? What indigenous people? The people who were living in the Americas at the time of the arrival of the Europeans were decedents of people who arrived long before from Asia and perhaps elsewhere as well. One might do well to recognize that the majority of Europe was equally conquered and settled by latter arrivals: Greeks, Romans, Huns, Magyars, Franks, etc...

Instead of Americans maybe we should be called Timbuktuians.

Although Mali might have something to say about that.

[MarkBastable]

I think our country, in being called America, indicates its intention to dominate. I wonder if it was planned from the beginning, to be named United States of America and then call us America.

The term "Americans" should refer to the indigenous people of these continents. But we decided to call them Indians and thereby make them foreigners in their own land.

Instead of Americans maybe we should be called Timbuktuians.

(There's something about Luke that brings out the bratty little sister in me! )

....blimey.

A friend of mine had an essay returned to him at university, in the margin of which his professor had written, "This isn't right. This isn't even wrong."

[stlukesguild]

In Chinese, for instance, (the United States of) America is called "beautiful country."

They've obviously never been to Cleveland... let alone Detroit.

[cl154576]

In Chinese, for instance, (the United States of) America is called "beautiful country."

They've obviously never been to Cleveland... let alone Detroit.

I suppose I should clarify, before someone attacks me on this. In Chinese they call the US 美国 (mei-guo). The "mei," or beautiful, is shortened from 亚美利加 (ya-mei-li-jia), which is transliterated from "America" (I've never heard anyone use this expanded form in conversation, however); the "guo" means country.

There are countless character representations for "mei" but they chose the one that means "beautiful." Of course, it could be coincidental, or influenced by complex linguistic factors I do not know about.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

In Chinese, for instance, (the United States of) America is called "beautiful country."

They've obviously never been to Cleveland... let alone Detroit.

Or East St. Louis, the little gem I live next to.

I take issue with Native Americans being called Indians, though, because they aren't in any way Indians. Just because the Europeans who first came here screwed up and thought it was India, now Native Americans are destined to be mislabeled. We continuously (or, at least I do) run into the problem of not knowing what one means when they refer to one as "Indian." Which Indian? It's not even a matter of political correctness. It's not offensive to me when Native Americans are called Indians because I think it's racist or something, but because it is, simply, incorrect. And I do realize even Native Americans migrated from somewhere else, but if we want to take that approach, we might as well label every human an African, since that's where it all started. Native Americans were here first, and that's all there is to it.

I was twenty years, far from home, in the South of France, at the harvest of the grapes. At the end of the labor, the proprietor came to us and said the US had been attacked, that a part of New York had been destroyed, and that there could be millions of victims. “Attacked by who? – We are not sure. Probably the Arabs.” It was unbelievable. I was shocked, horrified. We said it was the beginning of WW3. Then I called my parents, who explained to me the situation, the crash of the planes, the apocalyptic atmosphere in New York. After the dinner, I asked the proprietor to buy the newspapers (he had the TV but we were not allowed to watch it), and, the following days, I could follow the events. Then the life went on… At least the other guys and girls did not talk much about it. Ten days later, back to home, I could eventually see the images at the television.

Sunday, I heard Kevin Cosgrove’s last call. It made me cry. During the night I dreamed of accidents and big holes. Monday, I woke up with his final scream in my ears.

Odd that you heard such an exaggerated number. Was there a sense of relief when you found out it wasn't nearly so bad, or even that strangely human disappointment when expected carnage isn't what it was thought to be?

[papayahed]

In Chinese, for instance, (the United States of) America is called "beautiful country."

They've obviously never been to Cleveland... let alone Detroit.

HEY!!!! I'm sitting right here.

[stlukesguild]

I take issue with Native Americans being called Indians, though, because they aren't in any way Indians. Just because the Europeans who first came here screwed up and thought it was India, now Native Americans are destined to be mislabeled. We continuously (or, at least I do) run into the problem of not knowing what one means when they refer to one as "Indian." Which Indian? It's not even a matter of political correctness. It's not offensive to me when Native Americans are called Indians because I think it's racist or something, but because it is, simply, incorrect. And I do realize even Native Americans migrated from somewhere else, but if we want to take that approach, we might as well label every human an African, since that's where it all started. Native Americans were here first, and that's all there is to it.

I agree that using the term "Indian" to denote "Native Americans" is problematic. It even leads to confusion when doing searches on Google for "Indian Art" as in the art of India as opposed to the art of Native Americans. Of course I don't know if the term is much more offensive toward the Native Americans than the native term many tribes used to define themselves: "human being"... inferring that all others... even other Native American tribes were not human beings. Rather like the Hebrew notion of being God's "chosen people". But if we ever do get around to changing things, what are we to do here in Cleveland with our ever beloved and beleaguered Cleveland Indians? I suppose we could just change Chief Wahoo into some blue Hindu god...

[cl154576]

I take issue with Native Americans being called Indians, though, because they aren't in any way Indians. Just because the Europeans who first came here screwed up and thought it was India, now Native Americans are destined to be mislabeled. We continuously (or, at least I do) run into the problem of not knowing what one means when they refer to one as "Indian." Which Indian? It's not even a matter of political correctness. It's not offensive to me when Native Americans are called Indians because I think it's racist or something, but because it is, simply, incorrect. And I do realize even Native Americans migrated from somewhere else, but if we want to take that approach, we might as well label every human an African, since that's where it all started. Native Americans were here first, and that's all there is to it.

In my school we call them Native Americans or American Indians, interchangeably, although the first is more popular (one less syllable ...)

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

I take issue with Native Americans being called Indians, though, because they aren't in any way Indians. Just because the Europeans who first came here screwed up and thought it was India, now Native Americans are destined to be mislabeled. We continuously (or, at least I do) run into the problem of not knowing what one means when they refer to one as "Indian." Which Indian? It's not even a matter of political correctness. It's not offensive to me when Native Americans are called Indians because I think it's racist or something, but because it is, simply, incorrect. And I do realize even Native Americans migrated from somewhere else, but if we want to take that approach, we might as well label every human an African, since that's where it all started. Native Americans were here first, and that's all there is to it.

I agree that using the term "Indian" to denote "Native Americans" is problematic. It even leads to confusion when doing searches on Google for "Indian Art" as in the art of India as opposed to the art of Native Americans. Of course I don't know if the term is much more offensive toward the Native Americans than the native term many tribes used to define themselves: "human being"... inferring that all others... even other Native American tribes were not human beings. Rather like the Hebrew notion of being God's "chosen people". But if we ever do get around to changing things, what are we to do here in Cleveland with our ever beloved and beleaguered Cleveland Indians? I suppose we could just change Chief Wahoo into some blue Hindu god...

I don't know how teams get away with team names and mascots like that, especially the Redskins. I don't find it offensive, just pretty damn insensitive.

In my school we call them Native Americans or American Indians, interchangeably, although the first is more popular (one less syllable ...)

Students do take any shortcut they can.

[Shalot]

So, this thread went off on another topic sort of and I don't really have anything to contribute to it. I'm still stuck on 09/11 and it's Thursday now, so the 10 year mark has come and gone. But I'm always late.

I was living with my mom and dad at the time, and I was sleeping when all of it started. My first class didn't start until noon so I wasn't getting up if I didn't have to.

My mother called and it was the phone that woke me up. She works for a government agency and they had been ordered to evacuate when the pentagon was hit so she called and said "What's going on?" and I had no clue what she was talking about. Then I turned on the news and watched it until my class started. The campus was pretty much empty that day but I went to class and all 5 of us sat around and talked, had a bit of lecture and went hom. That night I attended a prayer service.

This past Sunday, I watched the old news coverage with Katie Couric. I do remember some news coverage shown the day it happend of a reporter in New York and pieces paper from the offices in the towers were blowing all around her - 8 X 10 white and yellow paper you'd see in any office and she grabbed a piece of paper and put it in front of the camera - I guess maybe as a memento. It was some kind of flyer it seemed like with big type and then my dad said that they needed to cut to another reporter. And they did. I couldn't even tell what it said.

So I was on youtube trying to find old news coverage of the event. I was wondering if I could find a clip of that reporter in New York with the papers blowing around her but I got sidetracked with Kevin Cosgrove. He called 911 from the South tower. I hadn't heard that phone call until Sunday. It was very sad.

[OrphanPip]

Indian, in Canada at least, is considered almost as bad as the N word in some parts. Native issues are more prominent here, probably because aboriginal Canadians remain a significant minority population, and the majority in many parts of the country. It's often preferable to refer to people by their tribe/nation, such as Mohawk, Ojibway, or Cree. The PC term the government uses is First Nations, although that term usually does not cover the Inuit or the Metis, which is a cultural group in Western Canada that arose from French settlers intermarrying with natives after being cut off from the French Empire by the surrender of Quebec.

Edit: We also never quite had a history of glorifying the wars against the natives, largely because of how politically unpopular the expansion westward was perceived by Quebec, who were highly sympathetic towards Metis resistance, as they were fellow Catholics and Francophones.

[stlukesguild]

It's often preferable to refer to people by their tribe/nation, such as Mohawk, Ojibway, or Cree.

That is probably the best when one considers that the various tribes were no less individual nations with their own language and traditions than the whole of Europe. Of course the challenge is to recognize the Sioux from the Blackfoot from the Cuyahoga from the Comanche, etc...

[MarkBastable]

I was at home in London, working. Our wedding had been two weeks earlier, and my American wife's relatives had gone back to the East Coast only a few days before.

My wife took a call from her sister (also living in London), telling her to turn on the TV. I went to watch too and - like the rest of the world - saw the second plane crash into the towers. We spent the rest of the day watching the coverage.

Anne had left the US in January that year - and until then she'd been a Fox News anchor. Watching the coverage, she felt that she ought to be there, working, doing something. I think she felt disloyal or cowardly because she was safe and happy in London. (Though a few months later we were to discover that London wasn't safe either.)

Some images from that day are still hugely evocative. They stimulate an inescapable involuntary response.

I work in the Docklands district of London, in the shadow of these buildings.



London City Airport lies three or four miles to the east, and the planes' flight path goes right over the top of these skyscrapers - dozens every day. Even now, ten years later, my stomach lurches when I glance up and see this...

[JuniperWoolf]

Indian, in Canada at least, is considered almost as bad as the N word in some parts..

It's often preferable to refer to people by their tribe/nation, such as Mohawk, Ojibway, or Cree.

My area is about 30% native, and if you call any native an "Indian," you're in big trouble. You're supposed to call them either "natives" or "Cree" here, because that's the tribe that the vast majority our natives have descended from.

In fact, I happen to be native on my mother's side, and I get called "Cree" even though my people are from the Inuit tribes in the east. Then again, my family is the only non-Cree native descendants in the area so I can't fault them for the assumption.

Other than the social awkwardness that would ensue, there's one other reason to avoid using the word "Indian" - it's a four hundred year old error that makes our European ancestors and us look like morons for not correcting.

...until then she'd been a Fox News anchor.

No way! Really?

[B. Laumness]

Odd that you heard such an exaggerated number. Was there a sense of relief when you found out it wasn't nearly so bad, or even that strangely human disappointment when expected carnage isn't what it was thought to be?

Neither one nor the other. When I heard that rumour, I had mixed feelings. I was incredulous, I said: "It's not possible, I can't believe it!" And meanwhile I could not ignore it, I could not help feeling an unknown horror. When I had correct informations, maybe an hour later, I thought it was an idiocy and a shame to have spread such a rumour. And meanwhile that horror became true, I could visualize or imagine the scene (since I had not the TV), I was really horrified. Several days later, when I finally watched the TV, it was worse than I could imagine.