Why does a good God promote suffering?

[thebagman]

I just copied and pasted this from another site I found on google.

Christians frequently try to portray their god as a loving, benevolent god, but this ignores the long history of Christian theology which includes a great deal about their god being wrathful, vengeful, and downright violent. Christians have generally just accepted this on the assumption that it's wrong to "judge" their god — whatever it does must necessarily be moral, right?

Secular atheists are not so constrained and can more easily point out just how immoral or indecent such a god is. A more interesting issue, though, may be how belief in such an immoral god influences the morality of the believers. When grossly immoral and indecent behavior is accepted as a matter of course, or even as an example of just behavior, how can believers themselves uphold minimal standards of morality and decency in their own lives?

George writes about religious leaders who deliver positive portrayals of their god delivering vengeance to even innocent people:

What strikes me about what the Bishop says is his careless feeling for a person's life. I imagine that his constituents feel that on a face to face he is caring but I think it is obvious that he cares little for an innocent life taken away miles from some "moral crime" God is displeased about. (And how is it the God of the Bible cannot think Capitalism to be a most egregious sin but one in which his followers so delight?)

As a nonbeliever I find life to be infinitely precious no matter who it is who may have life and am offended if some god capriciously takes that innocent life for no other reason than a grudge. The Bishop defends the morally indefensible and becomes immoral himself.

I don't see how he can't see he turns his own religion completely upside down.

Perhaps there is something wrong with the cognitive organization of his religion.


If a religious believer thinks that it would be moral and unjust for their god to cause your death not for some "sin" of yours, but because of the "sins" of neighbors — or perhaps of people hundreds of miles away — would you be able to maintain the belief that this person is moral? Would you continue to trust this person very far? Would you entrust the safety of your children to them?

I don't think I could and I would in fact go a bit further: I'm not sure I would trust such a person never to feel justified in enforcing the will of their god on their own. If they think it's just and good for you as an innocent person to die, then of course it would be just and good for you to die if you aren't innocent. Once that inference is accepted, how much of a leap is it to for someone to think that they could be the instrument of their god's vengeance on sinners?

[G L Wilson]

how is he misunderstood?

How can he be understood?

The word "allowance" is meaningless in this context. For an omniscient and omnipotent god the creation of an entity can only mean the willing into existence of everything it will ever be and do, since this god at the moment of the entity's creation knows everything it will ever be and do. What would you say to a bomber who builds a bomb, sets its timer, places it in a subway station, stands by as 100 people are killed in its explosion and then claims he didn't cause the deaths but merely allowed them? This is the exact situation this god is in every time it creates a killer—because it always knows with utter certainty that it is about to create a killer and it always knows who will be killed as the result of creating it. There is no possibility of another outcome. It is a moral and factual certainty.

The obvious and only possible conclusion: An omnipotent and omniscient god is morally responsible for every action performed by any entity it creates.

Absolutely correct, except we cannot know God or his plan. Whatever God's plan is, it cannot be worth the suffering he causes.

[dwdean]

Short answer: it is exactly the same if you knew the action would be performed when you created the being that ultimately performed it. In the case of an omniscient and omnipotent god, this is 100% of the time.

A longer answer with examples: The word "allowance" is meaningless in this context. For an omniscient and omnipotent god the creation of an entity can only mean the willing into existence of everything it will ever be and do, since this god at the moment of the entity's creation knows everything it will ever be and do. What would you say to a bomber who builds a bomb, sets its timer, places it in a subway station, stands by as 100 people are killed in its explosion and then claims he didn't cause the deaths but merely allowed them? This is the exact situation this god is in every time it creates a killer—because it always knows with utter certainty that it is about to create a killer and it always knows who will be killed as the result of creating it. There is no possibility of another outcome. It is a moral and factual certainty.

The obvious and only possible conclusion: An omnipotent and omniscient god is morally responsible for every action performed by any entity it creates.

your analogy, while well thought out, lacks one element. the difference between the bomber's creation (bomb) and God's creation (mankind) is that a bomb cannot choose. mankind has freewill, does he not? God may know what man will choose to do, but He does not Himself choose to do those things.

this argument will inevitably return to Descarte's Meditation on First Philosophy.

[G L Wilson]

your analogy, while well thought out, lacks one element. the difference between the bomber's creation (bomb) and God's creation (mankind) is that a bomb cannot choose. mankind has freewill, does he not? God may know what man will choose to do, but He does not Himself choose to do those things.

this argument will inevitably return to Descarte's Meditation on First Philosophy.

Oh, yeah. "There has to be a God because I can't think of anything else." Terrific.

[dwdean]

Oh, yeah. "There has to be a God because I can't think of anything else." Terrific.

i didn't say it should end there, it most definitely should not. i just see that turn on the horizon.

[WyattGwyon]

your analogy, while well thought out, lacks one element. the difference between the bomber's creation (bomb) and God's creation (mankind) is that a bomb cannot choose. mankind has freewill, does he not?

If there is an omniscient and omnipotent god there is no free will. (I presented this argument in detail earlier in the thread. It is the last post on page 3). Even if this were the case we would still need to act as if there were free will, but that is another matter. From a god's eye perspective, the homicidal action of every killer is as inevitable and predictable as the explosion of the bomb. The only difference between the god's action in creating a killer and the bomber's action in creating the bomb is that the god is absolutely certain that someone will die by his action, whereas the bomber can't be sure.

God may know what man will choose to do, but He does not Himself choose to do those things.

Yes, he does! By willing the existence of the entity that does "those things" he is choosing with complete knowledge and intention that those things be done, and that they be done in a certain precise way and no other. It is a direct chain of causation.

[cyberbob]

your analogy, while well thought out, lacks one element. the difference between the bomber's creation (bomb) and God's creation (mankind) is that a bomb cannot choose. mankind has freewill, does he not? God may know what man will choose to do, but He does not Himself choose to do those things.

this argument will inevitably return to Descarte's Meditation on First Philosophy.

Free will is only an illusion if God already knows what is going to happen to us. It's like watching a movie, not liking it, then re-watching it and getting mad that it wasn't better the second time around.

Basically, if the future is concrete and knowable, then you cannot do whatever you want. You can only do what you will do. It's not really fair to punish someone for doing something that they had to do (because it was their destiny).

You could even take this further and say that since God is all-knowing and all-powerful he has complete knowledge and control over every aspect of all life. This pretty much reduces us to characters in God's story and our fates are utterly at his whim.

[dwdean]

if i look at an atlas while standing in california, and if find the most direct route to nc (i40e) does that mean that i will definitely take i40east? no, it means that i know it's an option.
God sees the possible outcomes of all our choices and how they affect the choices of others and how those choices affect the... you get it. that is different from dictating those choices.

think of it this way. you can reply to this thread or not. God knows what you will do and He also knows the domino affect of that choice. but does he cause that? no, you do. if you don't believe me, turn off your computer and don't reply. or keep it on and give your differing opinion. your choice. not mine, not God's, yours alone.

[G L Wilson]

Row, row, row your boat
Gently down the stream
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily,
Life is but a dream.

[usman.khawar]

I'm not worried about anybody. I'm just giving one example of how God's psychic abilities don't fit in with the idea of free will.

And there's a difference between a "small n little" teacher who can guess which of his students will pass and fail a test and God KNOWING who will be saved and who won't due to his ability to SEE THE FUTURE.

You can't just fail students because you'd get fired. God has no one to answer to though. If he already knows who's going to sin and who won't, and sinning is the criteria by which we are judged, then our individual fates were sealed from the beginning of time (assuming God does not change his mind [why would he?]).

example of misscariage proved God's pyschic abilities ? dont fit in with the idea of free will? lolzz who one can say where those children will go except God? may be go back to notingness. but who do this will be asked at judgment day. why they did this?.
i have many good reasons in favor for what u wanna to prove anyway. little bit i explained in previous posts as well.
2ndy you said i cant just fail student coz i'd get fired haha i was the principal as well. but point is that being a small teacher i could judge by efforts of students by the sincerity towards their exams. why not God predict ? whose guess can be more accurate than God? He is running all the universes, sun moon stars earth with a perfect guess. He is the creator of time n space. this time is finite, this space is finite according to Him as He told. human is still not able to reach or measure even the distances of a single universe. trillions and trillions light years!

my dear ? is there any system in the world who just give the reward or punishment without exam ? is their any university or college who just gave you degree or certificarte without exam. i was just telling that God knows the capablities of everyone. but He give the chance to choose.
in wider canvas He knows everything as well wht will you choose so He wrote everything. and people blame Him that He didnt give the chance and wrote all ready everything.

and as i also said about the other extreme who says everything has been given in human's hand is also wrong. my dear fellows! without pray human become proudier. those who are humble do pray. one just have to understand what is right and what is wrong. and than? intention for doing good and pray. intention creates actions. intention decided on which way one will go.
my dear may God give you the way! this discussion of destiny is very complicated. only those who are not serious to solve the ist basic question always ready to talk about the matter to hide their laziness. but if someone is really interested to talk like this ist of all have to find whether God exist or not. if He exist than He can do everything. He know everything. He should be the Lord of all universes and earths and skies.

[G L Wilson]

Trust in God is dishonest.

[Brock]

because hell for eternity is no fun.

You got that right. So.... why does God allow hell for eternity? Isn't this a set-up for suffering so to speak? Because he knows that x amount of people will end up in heaven right? Could he not just end the existence of sinful souls completely rather than have them suffer for eternity? Eternity is such an evil notion in itself. Doesn't he forgive? Or isn't he supposed to? I mean ETERNITY!!! That's the thing I don't understand. Isn't a hundred, a thousand, a million years enough? Or a trillion? No no no, it HAS to be eternity. Too harsh for my liking.. (with all respect).

[BienvenuJDC]

I just wanted to bring this answer forth again. It was well stated.

I consider our present suffering not worth comparing to the glory that will be revealed in us.

Romans 8:18


The following is the answer Scripture gives.

Fact: God created a world that was perfect--that is, without suffering and without any flaw.

Fact: Humans, when given freedom to remain perfect or to turn from God, turned from God.

Fact: This turning (Fall) changed each person and changed creation (the world). All now is marred. All now suffers and causes suffering.

Fact: All people who sin deserve eternal punishment in hell

Fact: Any suffering endured on earth, be it ever so great, is less than the suffering of hell.

Fact: God desires that people do not suffer hell. He went so far as to provide his Son as a Substitute with Jesus Christ willingly living and dieing to pay for our sins.

Fact: Because of this many, many people will rescued from hell and will dwell with God in heaven.

Fact: The joy of dwelling in heaven is greater than the suffering of living on earth.

Fact: In his desire that more people should trust his solution and be saved, God permits this world to continue, not because of the suffering that happens, but in spite of it.


Blithe Spirit makes some good points. God is able to make use of wickedness so that it serves good purpose. At the same time, suffering or even God himself cannot be comprehended apart from Jesus and his death on the cross.

[G L Wilson]

I don't want to make use of wickedness. I want to end wickedness, but then I'm not a monster.

[Panglossian]

Question for the Christians: Are all the deceased Buddhists, Hindus, Sikhs, Muslims, Jains, etc now suffering in Hell?