Poetry Discussion Group: Ovid's Metamorposes

[ftil]

That's ambiguous. Lot was obviously drunk and confused, but not knowing exactly when someone lies down or arises doesn't in and of itself constitute a complete lack of awareness.

I'm not sure where ftil is coming from. The "truth" (as Drkshadow suggests) and the "story" are identical. Of course we don't know if a real Lot existed (how could we?) but we don't know if a real Zeus existed either, and I don't see anyong complaining that his abduction of Europa may not be the "truth".

Well, my search for truth was as a result of asking questions why as a society we have stopped functioning. I have asked why 20 million people in US suffer from a major depression, similar number of people suffer from anxiety. If we add all forms of addiction, we see the seriousness of the problem. Then I asked the question, why they promote pornography and a female whore archetype. I moved to study mind control and then I moved to all religions and mythology. I have tons of questions and I want to understand what went wrong and what has happed to us. I am not satisfied any more with answers we were led to believe as the truth.

[Drkshadow03]

That's ambiguous. Lot was obviously drunk and confused, but not knowing exactly when someone lies down or arises doesn't in and of itself constitute a complete lack of awareness.

I'm not sure where ftil is coming from. The "truth" (as Drkshadow suggests) and the "story" are identical. Of course we don't know if a real Lot existed (how could we?) but we don't know if a real Zeus existed either, and I don't see anyong complaining that his abduction of Europa may not be the "truth".

Not really. If we were supposed to take the phrase literally as Lot didn't know when his daughter slept with him and when she left, it would be a rather pointless line to add. The point is what the lines imply. The lines imply he was so drunk that he lost his sense of time and his surroundings (and what was happening), that he was basically completely unaware of his daughter coming in and sleeping with him and then leaving after the deed was done.

Really, though, this is getting off-topic from the thread, which is supposed to be about Ovid's work.

[Ecurb]

Well, my search for truth was as a result of asking questions why as a society we have stopped functioning. I have asked why 20 million people in US suffer from a major depression, similar number of people suffer from anxiety. If we add all forms of addiction, we see the seriousness of the problem. Then I asked the question, why they promote pornography and a female whore archetype. I moved to study mind control and then I moved to all religions and mythology. I have tons of questions and I want to understand what went wrong and what has happed to us. I am not satisfied any more with answers we were led to believe as the truth.

Since when is "the truth" a matter of functionality. I'll grant that the modern scientific worldview sometimes suggests as much -- but philosophers would disagree. Also, who is the "they" who are promoting pornography and the "female whore archetype"? I'm guessing that depression rates were often similar to what they are now -- they just weren't diagnosed in the same way. As for anxiety -- I'm guessing that back when half of the children didn't live to be five, parents suffered a lot more anxiety than they do now.

(You're probably right Drkshadow, although I'm not enough of a biblical scholar to know for certain.)

[YesNo]

As a connection to this conversation, one can return to the text and find the Story of Salmacis. She is a woman who tries to rape Hermaphrodites (15 year old boy).

By some strange coincidence, I had left off at the story of Salmacis and Hermaphrodites (book 4).

It seems that they ultimately merged together somehow at Salmacis request like a graft on a tree. As a reasonable response, I would have thought Hermaphrodites would have requested that they be separated again, but no. Instead he asks that a curse be placed on the pool. Why blame the pool or cause others to have a transformation who swim in it?

Things don't seem just in these stories, which is perhaps what makes them interesting.

[ftil]

Since when is "the truth" a matter of functionality. I'll grant that the modern scientific worldview sometimes suggests as much -- but philosophers would disagree. Also, who is the "they" who are promoting pornography and the "female whore archetype"? I'm guessing that depression rates were often similar to what they are now -- they just weren't diagnosed in the same way. As for anxiety -- I'm guessing that back when half of the children didn't live to be five, parents suffered a lot more anxiety than they do now.

(You're probably right Drkshadow, although I'm not enough of a biblical scholar to know for certain.)

Sorry, if you can’t see that something is very wrong with our world, you will find many explanations for society problems. For example, about depression or anxiety. I am just wondering on what base you built your assumptions? Secondly, if you don’t see that music videos and movie promote a female whore archetype, you will not look for the answer who they are. I am not going to provide the answer. I would rather ask questions. Hey, we got minds for a reason.

[Ecurb]

Of course I see something is very wrong with our world. I’m not Candide. What I don’t see is that we have degenerated from some ideal past. Are you suggesting that no negative stereotypes about women existed in the past? If you are, I dispute it. Women have more freedom today than they have in most of the known past (men, too, for that matter). Although stereotypes exist, they are less prevalent and pernicious than they have been in centuries.

I don’t doubt that some people are anxious and others are depressed. But hasn’t that always been the case? Wasn’t Lady Bertram, sitting endlessly on her couch stroking Pug “clinically depressed”? Don’t you think women who stood a good chance of dying in childbirth, and whose children were likely to die before they turned five, were just as anxious as modern women, whose children generally survive, and who usually complete more than their three score and ten?

Why is it that people always see the problems with the present, and idealize the past? I hear constantly about the high stress of fast paced modern life. But isn’t this ridiculous? Wouldn’t a life where one’s children often die, when one is subject to countless diseases and plagues, and when one might starve if the hunt is unsuccessful be a lot more stressful than modern life? We live in the most stress-free, least anxious time in the history of the world.

In fact, the hustle and bustle of modern life is a mere illusion. We look out our window and see cars and trucks driving by. But the people inside them are sitting still. If there were more activity, there would be less hustle and bustle.

Of course diagnosis of ‘depression’ and ‘anxiety’ has increased – the medical profession is treating more and more things. But that’s no reason to assume that there is actually more depression or anxiety. It seems likely that there was more anxiety in the past – and for better reason.

[ftil]

Ecurb wrote:

Of course I see something is very wrong with our world. I’m not Candide. What I don’t see is that we have degenerated from some ideal past. Are you suggesting that no negative stereotypes about women existed in the past? If you are, I dispute it. Women have more freedom today than they have in most of the known past (men, too, for that matter). Although stereotypes exist, they are less prevalent and pernicious than they have been in centuries.

I don’t doubt that some people are anxious and others are depressed. But hasn’t that always been the case? Wasn’t Lady Bertram, sitting endlessly on her couch stroking Pug “clinically depressed”? Don’t you think women who stood a good chance of dying in childbirth, and whose children were likely to die before they turned five, were just as anxious as modern women, whose children generally survive, and who usually complete more than their three score and ten?

Why is it that people always see the problems with the present, and idealize the past? I hear constantly about the high stress of fast paced modern life. But isn’t this ridiculous? Wouldn’t a life where one’s children often die, when one is subject to countless diseases and plagues, and when one might starve if the hunt is unsuccessful be a lot more stressful than modern life? We live in the most stress-free, least anxious time in the history of the world.

In fact, the hustle and bustle of modern life is a mere illusion. We look out our window and see cars and trucks driving by. But the people inside them are sitting still. If there were more activity, there would be less hustle and bustle.

Of course diagnosis of ‘depression’ and ‘anxiety’ has increased – the medical profession is treating more and more things. But that’s no reason to assume that there is actually more depression or anxiety. It seems likely that there was more anxiety in the past – and for better reason.

I would never suggest that male or female stereotypes didn’t exist in the past. There were always there but streotypes have changed over times. I don’t know if you have seen the Century of the Self, BBC 4 parts documentary movie that shows how psychology and psychiatry was used to program us. This movie has shown many layers of how we were programmed and it takes time to uncover all layesrs.

Your assumption about depression and anxiety is wrong. I don’t have time to provide research that shows it.

[Ecurb]

I haven't seen "Century of Self". Depression and anxiety are such nebulous conditions that it seems unlikely to me that research could "show" that my assumption is wrong (although I'm willing to look at anything). I don't necessarily assume that people are less anxious or depressed today than they have been in the past -- instead I assume that people are people, and they are much the same now as they were then. I was simply pointing out that there was more REASON for anxiety in the past, so, lacking definitive evidence to the contrary, it would be reasonable to assume that there was MORE anxiety, stress, etc. in the past. Mr Woodhouse seems to have suffered from it, for one, at some time around 1815.

(Of course to the extent that physical exercise is a good treatment for anxiety, stress or depression it is possible that in less sedentary times these conditions were less prevalent. I doubt it, though.)

[ftil]

If you choose to base your assumption that is not based on research, it is your choice. If you are not interested to find by yourself that your beliefs are false………why don’t we go back to Ovid. LOL!

[Buh4Bee]

By some strange coincidence, I had left off at the story of Salmacis and Hermaphrodites (book 4).

It seems that they ultimately merged together somehow at Salmacis request like a graft on a tree. As a reasonable response, I would have thought Hermaphrodites would have requested that they be separated again, but no. Instead he asks that a curse be placed on the pool. Why blame the pool or cause others to have a transformation who swim in it?

Things don't seem just in these stories, which is perhaps what makes them interesting.

I agree and I thin we can consider the role of fate, destiny, or just bad luck to add to the mix of absurdity.

[Ecurb]

If you choose to base your assumption that is not based on research, it is your choice. If you are not interested to find by yourself that your beliefs are false………why don’t we go back to Ovid. LOL!

You're the one who is "too busy" to bother with research. I said (in plain English) that I'd be glad to look at the research, but that I doubt it would be pesrsuasive (because definitions and diagnoses of anxiety and depression have changed so much). I suppose it might be possible on a micro-level ("more people are anxious and depressed now than in 1950," for example). But I don't see how scientists could compare people today with those in
1600. Please enlighten me. I'd love to see the research.

[ftil]

You're the one who is "too busy" to bother with research. I said (in plain English) that I'd be glad to look at the research, but that I doubt it would be pesrsuasive (because definitions and diagnoses of anxiety and depression have changed so much). I suppose it might be possible on a micro-level ("more people are anxious and depressed now than in 1950," for example). But I don't see how scientists could compare people today with those in
1600. Please enlighten me. I'd love to see the research.

Hey, you don't expect me to do homework for you, do you? I have done mine. But I suggested that you watch the Century of the Self and you should have hundreds of questions. Then, I could share more links depending on your questions.

[Ecurb]

Hey, you don't expect me to do homework for you, do you? I have done mine. But I suggested that you watch the Century of the Self and you should have hundreds of questions. Then, I could share more links depending on your questions.

Of course you need not cite any research -- and I probably won't bother doing the 'homework' (I hate that word) for myself. I do appreciate all the mythological artworks you posted, though. Thanks.

[ftil]

Of course you need not cite any research -- and I probably won't bother doing the 'homework' (I hate that word) for myself. I do appreciate all the mythological artworks you posted, though. Thanks.

I understand it. Psychology is my passion but I understand that not everybody loves it. LOL! I am glad that you like artwork. Art takes us to a different place as it bypasses a left brain activity, allowing us to see what we didn’t see before. I hope that you will continue reading and quoting Ovid so that I will get constant stimulation…….and respond with art.

[Buh4Bee]

I think that this was already mentioned earlier in the thread, but I'll ask again as memory as dwindled to almost nothing- Is the myth of Pyramus and Thisbe the same myth that Romeo and Juliet is based on?

This thread should also get more focused on the Metamorphoses. I think we have lost some readers here.