Why does a good God promote suffering?

[blithe spirit]

...God has put just enough suffering into the world to allow us to appreciate the good in it, which is obviously not true as there is far more suffering...disavowed God's omnipotence and thereby excused him by saying He doesn't promote suffering and He would alliviate it, if He could, but He can't.

Bagman, GLWilson, and DesEssientes, Yes, God can alleviate suffering if he wants but he allows it sometimes for many reasons (post#2 and #4). God didn't want to create a bunch of robots...so he gave us free will to choose good or evil. The first man chose evil. It's all about love. God wants us to love him because we choose to, not because we're made to....that's not love.

Regarding your last sentence: There isn't more evil than good in the world...you just aren't looking.

But who created leukaemia? Who came up with the idea and invented the mechanisms by which it comes into being.

Satan came up with the idea. Satan takes the good things God has created and turns them into something evil.

As Mark Twain remarked, there is no laughter in heaven because there is no suffering in heaven.

Mark Twain never said that. He said "there is no humor in heaven" but he never said why he made that claim and didn't mention suffering. Do you have a reference? Thank goodness he didn't say that because it makes no sense. What's so funny about suffering?

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[MarkBastable]

Satan came up with the idea. Satan takes the good things God has created and turns them into something evil.
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But did Satan introduce into the world the physiological and genetic mechanisms that cause leukaemia? Or did God introduce them, after the Fall?

And on my other point, are you saying that the Gospel of St John is mistaken that believers will be given everlasting life?

[blithe spirit]

But did Satan introduce into the world the physiological and genetic mechanisms that cause leukaemia? Or did God introduce them, after the Fall? And on my other point, are you saying that the Gospel of St John is mistaken that believers will be given everlasting life?

Your first question: I'm not the alpha and omega on this subject but I do know that God allowed evil via satan before the fall of Adam/man in order to give man an opportunity to exert his free will and choose between good and evil. Once Adam chose evil then evil remained and God continues to sometimes allow it for reasons mentioned in posts 2 and 4. I know I've said this many times in response to previous questions but it's the only answer there is.

Your second question: I never said the Gospel of John is mistaken...it isn't. Yes, believers will be given everlasting life. Is this question about when I said there is no time in heaven aka God's kingdom? Everlasting life is without time constraints so that only supports my theory

[G L Wilson]

Mark Twain never said that. He said "there is no humor in heaven" but he never said why he made that claim and didn't mention suffering. Do you have a reference? Thank goodness he didn't say that because it makes no sense. What's so funny about suffering?

He said it in not so many words but he did say it.

[blithe spirit]

He said it in not so many words but he did say it.

Reference please? If he said it then it should be easy to find. I found nothing and it makes no sense that Mark Twain would say that suffering would be funny.

[G L Wilson]

I'm not the alpha and omega on this subject but I do know that God allowed evil via satan before the fall of Adam/man in order to give man an opportunity to exert his free will and choose between good and evil. Once Adam chose evil then evil remained and God continues to sometimes allow it for reasons mentioned in posts 2 and 4. I know I've said this many times in response to previous questions but it's the only answer there is.

God has corrupted us for His own sick pleasure, yes, do you agree?

Reference please? If he said it then it should be easy to find. I found nothing and it makes no sense that Mark Twain would say that suffering would be funny.

"The secret source of humor is not joy but sorrow; there is no humor in Heaven." Mark Twain

[blithe spirit]

God has corrupted us for His own sick pleasure, yes, do you agree?

I repeat...God created us perfect with a free will to choose between good and evil. He didn't create robots because he wanted us to choose to love him and to obey him...without choice it's not love. It's all about love....love for God, God's love for us, our love for our neighbor, our love for the loveable as well as the unloveable, etc

[G L Wilson]

I repeat...God created us perfect with a free will to choose between good and evil. He didn't create robots because he wanted us to choose to love him and to obey him...without choice it's not love. It's all about love....love for God, God's love for us, our love for our neighbor, our love for the loveable as well as the unloveable, etc

But what is God? Is he not supposed to be all-seeing, all-powerful?

[usman.khawar]

I repeat...God created us perfect with a free will to choose between good and evil. He didn't create robots because he wanted us to choose to love him and to obey him...without choice it's not love.

hello everybody.. nice concept. we are not robots. yes. i sometime thought why human are better than other creations. angels, heaven, hell , sun earth planets etc are like robots , doing the duties without any hesitation. may be they recogonized God and have no will to deny his orders. May b God thought to create a creation which is not like a robot. who recogonize Him with mind without seeing Him. God created mind and human got it. no doubt mind differnetiate what is right n what is wrong.

if He exist than there could be a lot of reason for sufferings. some of its people already mentioned but i dont like to waist time to number the reasons. there is a lot of reasons. but

the main question is only one for me, whether God exist or not. all discussions come after solving this question. heaven, hell , angels , prophets, etc they exist if God exist. who solve this question with argument? if he exist whats the argument. a solid external one, not individual feelings. if He dont exist than whats the argument. a solid external one, not indvidual feelings.?
i believe in my liberty there is only one hidrance. that is Him. if He doesnt exist than i m liberal. but if He is , m not!! someone tried to solve my confusion/ struggle to find truth and gave argument nobody see Him, i replies no body see air. but i can feel air. no one see anti protons. but they works. i need a solid argument to reject God. !! or to accept Him!! . 2nd question i have but it comes after solving ist one!!

[MarkBastable]

Your first question: I'm not the alpha and omega on this subject but I do know that God allowed evil via satan before the fall of Adam/man in order to give man an opportunity to exert his free will and choose between good and evil. Once Adam chose evil then evil remained and God continues to sometimes allow it for reasons mentioned in posts 2 and 4. I know I've said this many times in response to previous questions but it's the only answer there is.

Which would suggest that, given God's allowance, Satan can create too. So the Universe is not God's exclusive creation. Satan can claim bits of it.

Everlasting life is without time constraints so that only supports my theory

Except that in order for something to last, it requires time in which to last. That's, actually, what 'lasting' is - the continuous existence in time.

[WyattGwyon]

Your first question: I'm not the alpha and omega on this subject but I do know that God allowed evil via satan before the fall of Adam/man in order to give man an opportunity to exert his free will and choose between good and evil. Once Adam chose evil then evil remained and God continues to sometimes allow it for reasons mentioned in posts 2 and 4. I know I've said this many times in response to previous questions but it's the only answer there is.

Your second question: I never said the Gospel of John is mistaken...it isn't. Yes, believers will be given everlasting life. Is this question about when I said there is no time in heaven aka God's kingdom? Everlasting life is without time constraints so that only supports my theory

Blithe,
Given that you seem to embrace more or less traditional Christian theology, I am assuming you accept the notion of an omnipotent and omniscient god, correct? You do realize, however, that the existence of such a god/creator is incompatible with the notion of free will, right? Such a god in creating sentient beings would not see them as free actors with unknown futures, but as completed series of actions from birth to death. It could not be otherwise, since such a god stands outside of time and all things past, present, and future are, to it, known and seen simultaneously. To such a god, creating Adam, for example, could only mean creating a disobedient, weak being destined to fall into sin. Your God's decision to create him is thus a decision to create his sin, guilt and disobedience, and it is to do so with full consciousness of all of the eternal suffering that must inevitably follow from it (follow from our perspective, that is; from such a god's perspective there is no following since all things are to it eternally present). That is what omniscience means! You can't have it both ways. If your god is an omniscient and omnipotent creator, it must be the intentional author of all evil. Where such a god exists, there is no free will. The only way out of this is to assume that this creator chose not to know the consequences of its actions at the moment of creation. I don't think your theology allows you this out, does it? Unfortunately, the Calvinists and Manichean dualists got the logic exactly right. Traditional Christianity rejects this airtight logic and chooses to blame the vicitms, IMO, in order to exploit their guilt for temporal gain. This is a base and crass form of evil.

[G L Wilson]

Which would suggest that, given God's allowance, Satan can create too. So the Universe is not God's exclusive creation. Satan can claim bits of it.



It doesn't. In order for something to last, it requires time in which to last. That's, actually, what 'lasting' is - the continuous existence in time.

The whole question of God is absurd and should be dropped. This is how I feel, does anyone feel the same way?

[MarkBastable]

The whole question of God is absurd and should be dropped. This is how I feel, does anyone feel the same way?

No - the idea here is not to say that people are wrong in their belief systems. It's to discover how their belief system works. It's not attrition. It's exploration.

Me, I rarely say in these dialogues that anyone's wrong. I press them to explain how they're right.

[dwdean]

No - the idea here is not to say that people are wrong in their belief systems. It's to discover how their belief system works. It's not attrition. It's exploration.

Me, I rarely say in these dialogues that anyone's wrong. I press them to explain how they're right.

quite admirable Mark...
i don't believe that these threads are started in an attempt to prove anything, but rather to share one's beliefs and learn...

that being said, lets add some of this knowledge to my thread http://www.online-literature.com/for...77#post1051577 so that i can hear what you all have to offer.

[G L Wilson]

The Hindus have Shiva and the concept of One, therefore they have as much of a clue about God as we do. We cannot know God is all I am saying, and it is best to forget him altogether and do good when we can if we can because no-one else is going to do it if we don't. Only humanity can solve humanity's problems, there is nothing else to it, nothing.