King Minos of Crete was supposed to sacrifice a bull to Aphrodite. However, the bull was such a magnificent animal that Minos spared it. The slighted Aphrodite got her revenge by causing Minos' wife Pasiphae to fall in love with the bull. Pasiphae had a hollow bronze cow built. She could fit inside the cow and copulate with the magnificent white bull. The offspring of their union was the Minotaur, which Theseus later slew in the Labyrinth. (Ecurb, coming to the discussion half way through)
I just jumped in too.
@ y/n I think the cows were for charity. They were auctioned off.
What do people think about the idea that once the god makes a promise, it has to be honored? Why can't they just take it back? I just finished book 3- The Story of Semele. This is the part when Semele, under Juno's influence, asks Jove to show his full glory. Jove has to keep his promise, since he swore by the river Styx.
"He groans in pity: she cannot take back
What she had wished, nor what he had sworn."
What does this say about the morality of the Roman time period when Ovid wrote?
The same thing occurs with Phoebus and his son Phaethon (book 2). Phoebus promised, on the river Styx, to grant Phaethon anything he wanted. Unfortunately Phaethon wanted to ride the chariot of the sun across the sky which led to his death.Originally Posted by jersea
There is something about this river Styx that seems to have control over these gods.
Hey guys I am terribly sorry that I could not join the club I initiated; but I was called away from litnet for a period, due to various family affairs. Once again terribly sorry, but am glad to see you guys got it started and going strong without me. I hope to catch up and join in soon.
Welcome back A3! Hope you can join the conversation soon.
Yesno- I know, that section (Book 2) is a part when you see the same thing occur. I'm just wondering what these stories or myths say about the morality of the time they were written in. Roman was known for being morally corrupt, yet it produces great poetry with some kind of moral code. Yet, woman are constantly abducted, raped, or punished for their rape by parents or Juno.
While I would agree that Zeus rapes many of his victims against their will, I'm not so convinced about those other stories. I wouldn't call the David and Bathsheba episode a rape. Also, Lot's daughters rape him, not the other way around.Hm......as a female I question using a word "seduce"Zeus transformed himself into a bull or a swan, for example. I think that many painters were correct when they tilted their paintings The rape of Europa. He was a quite promiscuous god. The same applies when we look at Bathsheba and king David. The Bible use the same word that king David saw Bathsheba and seduced her. No, he raped her. I think that it is a very important distinction and we need to ask why so many painters were fascinated with the myth of Leda, Europa, Bathsheba, Susanna and elderly, or Lot and his daughters, Lot who raped his daughters.
I'm not sure it says anything about the morality of the times, but rather it might just be a narrative technique or a genuine part of the belief system of the Ancient Greeks, which the stories originated. The problem, of course, too, is we are seeing these stories filtered through Ovid.
Last edited by Drkshadow03; 07-11-2011 at 05:08 PM.
"You understand well enough what slavery is, but freedom you have never experienced, so you do not know if it tastes sweet or bitter. If you ever did come to experience it, you would advise us to fight for it not with spears only, but with axes too." - Herodotus
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I don't know what all the rape stories are about nor the excessive punishments. It might be a way to portray nature as somewhat hostile or at least unpredictable.
I also don't see the David and Bathsheba story as one of rape, but rather as adultery, if it happened at all. In the back of my mind, I keep recalling Baruch Halpern retelling this story in David's Secret Demons as something made up by Bathsheba and the court historian to justify, in a convoluted way, that Solomon was indeed David's legitimate son rather than Uriah's. I look at the books of Samuel and Kings as political documents justifying those who were in power at the time.
Yes, I agree that nature plays a very important role in the stories. I will remember that as I continue to read. Also the basic human emotions such as love, jealousy and revenge.
I know people are talking about the prevalence of the theme of rape in art as well as the stories. As a connection to this conversation, one can return to the text and find the Story of Salmacis. She is a woman who tries to rape Hermaphrodites (15 year old boy). He is able to keep her off him.
"He refused her
The joy she wanted most, but still she held him
Body to body."
Here is seems the woman does not succeed. It is a matter of difference in biological make-up between the sexes? Men are stronger and have a key, while woman are...
Well, we all know how the old argument goes. Here is an example of a woman trying to take what she wants when motivated by the lust to have beauty. Rape is never acceptable, but it is important to acknowledge that women can have the same drive for lust as men. This shows a twisted side of equality between the sexes, if you can follow my logic. LOL!
Well, I looked at paintings before I read mythology or the Bible. The Bible says that Lot's daughters made him drunk to the point that he couldn't remember having sex with them. I am a female so that I can't speak on behalf of men but is it possible for a man to have sex when he is so intoxicated to the point that he has a black·out?Drkshadow03 wrote:
While I would agree that Zeus rapes many of his victims against their will, I'm not so convinced about those other stories. I wouldn't call the David and Bathsheba episode a rape. Also, Lot's daughters rape him, not the other way around.
Paintings depict a different story.
Lot and his daughters.
Robert von Stutterheim, Lot and his daughters (after Jacopo Amigoni)
Frans, the elder Floris, Lot and his daughters.
Albrecht Altdorfer: Lot and his daughters.
Lot and His Daughters by Gustave Courbet, 1844
Wtewael Joachim, Lot and his daughters
YesNo wrote:
I also don't see the David and Bathsheba story as one of rape, but rather as adultery, if it happened at all. In the back of my mind, I keep recalling Baruch Halpern retelling this story in David's Secret Demons as something made up by Bathsheba and the court historian to justify, in a convoluted way, that Solomon was indeed David's legitimate son rather than Uriah's. I look at the books of Samuel and Kings as political documents justifying those who were in power at the time.
We may question if it happened or not. The same is with mythology and we don’t know if it happened but the themes of rapes and abduction of women are prevalent. Secondly, Bathsheba was naked after having a bath and King David immediately desired her. If they met in a different circumstance, I wouldn’t argue that he could seduce her or she seduced him. I have started looking closely at those themes as I have noticed that the themes "after bath" or "the bathers" are one of the most painted themes. I have been asking why? Then, I connected it with Bathsheba , Susana and the Elders, and Lot and his daughters. I need to find where in the Bible is written about Bathsheba.
Well, if you read the Bible not only does Lot's daughters get him drunk, but it specifically shows Lot's daughter's conspiring with each other to get him drunk for the purpose of raping their father and taking his seed. I'm not really sure paintings at least a thousand years after the story constitutes evidence to the contrary.
'Lot went up from Zoar and settled in the hill country with his two daughters, for he was afraid to dwell in Zoar; and he and his two daughters lived in a cave. And the older one said to the younger, "Our father is old, and there is not a man on earth to consort with us in the way of all the world. Come, let us make our father drink wine, and let us lie with him, that we may maintain life through our father." That night they made their father drink wine, and the older one went in and lay with her father; he did not know when she lay down or when she rose.' (Genesis 19:30-19:33 JPS Translation)
Last edited by Drkshadow03; 07-12-2011 at 08:40 AM.
"You understand well enough what slavery is, but freedom you have never experienced, so you do not know if it tastes sweet or bitter. If you ever did come to experience it, you would advise us to fight for it not with spears only, but with axes too." - Herodotus
https://consolationofreading.wordpress.com/ - my book blog!
Feed the Hungry!
Well, you have just accepted the story of Lot without questioning. I was asking a very different question. Sorry, but I don’t believe that the old father was quite intoxicated and the daughter could rape him. If it is not possible in a real life, I don’t believe that it was possible in the Bible. Perhaps, we have not been told the truth.
Does seducing someone who is drunk constitute rape? I suppose it depends on whether they are so drunk as to be incapable of saying "No". I don't think Lot's daughters are guilty of rape, although they were very naughty girls.
Why would I question the story details and plot of a made-up myth or any type of fictional story for that matter? You wouldn't read a scene in a contemporary novel in which the author tells us the main character entered his ferrari (car) and then claim, "No, the story is lying! You just accepted it without questioning it! He was really driving a motorcycle. A Motorcycle! I mean a train . . . " That would just be you making stuff up and adding events that never happened in the story.
Also, given the Bible is about a supernatural deity that splits apart seas so people can cross it, communicates through a burning bush, turns water to blood, and many other fantastical things that never seem to happen in real life it is rather strange for you to write "If it is not possible in a real life, I don't believe that it was possible in the Bible." Many stuff that isn't possible in real life or which doesn't occur in the natural world without supernatural intervention (I'll throw a bone to believers here) happen in the Bible.
You seem to also be implying that women can never rape men in real life. While men certainly have a much higher rate of being the perpetrator, I hate to burst your bubble, but it does happen.
Except the text actually says, "he did not know when she lay down or when she rose." He wasn't cognizant of what was happening; I would say that's a clear indication that he was so drunk he couldn't say "no."
Last edited by Drkshadow03; 07-12-2011 at 02:23 PM.
"You understand well enough what slavery is, but freedom you have never experienced, so you do not know if it tastes sweet or bitter. If you ever did come to experience it, you would advise us to fight for it not with spears only, but with axes too." - Herodotus
https://consolationofreading.wordpress.com/ - my book blog!
Feed the Hungry!
Drkshadow03 wrote:
Also, given the Bible is about a supernatural deity that splits apart seas so people can cross it, communicates through a burning bush, turns water to blood, and many other fantastical things that never seem to happen in real life it is rather strange for you to write "If it is not possible in a real life, I don't believe that it was possible in the Bible." Many stuff that isn't possible in real life or which doesn't occur in the natural world without supernatural intervention (I'll throw a bone to believers here) happen in the Bible.
Yes, but we have to blindly believe without questioning, haven’t we? We were not raised to question, particularly, the Bible. Well, the more I study artifacts and different religions, the more I see that we have not been told the truth.
No, I don’t imply. It is your assumption and you are wrong. I was talking about rape and abduction of women first. I may address it when I am done with this subject.You seem to also be implying that women can never rape men in real life. While men certainly have a much higher rate of being the perpetrator, I hate to burst your bubble, but it does happen.
That's ambiguous. Lot was obviously drunk and confused, but not knowing exactly when someone lies down or arises doesn't in and of itself constitute a complete lack of awareness.
I'm not sure where ftil is coming from. The "truth" (as Drkshadow suggests) and the "story" are identical. Of course we don't know if a real Lot existed (how could we?) but we don't know if a real Zeus existed either, and I don't see anyong complaining that his abduction of Europa may not be the "truth".
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