Voluntary Childlessness

[Vonny]

Well Atheist, any man making a good faith effort at fathering has my vote, even if he's an Atheist.

That little red animal gets me every time! I think one reason I'm drawn to this site is that there's a lot of rolling around on the floor and laughing that goes on here. Like *Claas* does it when he's at work and somebody brings in books that he's excited about. And the dashing Valhalla guy at the Wild West party does it, too. It's more fun here than the anorexia recovery forum that I sometimes frequented before I stumbled onto this place.

There's not a lot of good examples being set for children. I was at the library waiting to check out a book, standing back a bit to give the woman in front of me a chance to finish. As soon as the woman in front of me was done, a young teenage girl darted from no where right in front of me to the counter to check out! The librarian went right ahead and checked out that girl. I felt like saying, "Excuse me, it's my turn," but I would have sounded rude. I think the librarian would've done that little girl a favor to tell her to wait her turn, because children need to be taught some manners somewhere. If not at home, then somewhere.

[Delta40]

Vonny I think bad manners should not be reinforced. If you are worried that you will sound rude if you speak up then you have tacitly endorsed that young woman's behaviour. Yet you expect someone else to say something, so I'm not sure why you are mentioning it. ‘All that is necessary for the triumph of evil (or rudeness) is that good men do nothing’

[Vonny]

Delta, I said that someone should teach the girl something. If the librarian had corrected the girl the mother would probably have made such a fuss that she would have had the librarian fired.

And I do believe that evil triumphs where I live. My small town is a stronghold of the Aryan Nations. The official headquarters used to be here, until some of the leaders went to prison for murdering minorities. Until just a few years ago, they held an annual parade through our main street. Though slightly more under wraps now, the Aryan Nations presence is still very much alive here, and particularly in my neighborhood. One of their meeting places is a cafe across from my home. Minorities are few and far between. If you are different in any way, you keep it under your hat. For instance, the homosexuals here are very much closeted. One of my brothers is gay, and I really do worry about him. I am not an outspoken person in any way. I just blend in. Actually, I am half minority, on my father's side, though no one can tell from my appearance, and my name was changed many years ago, so few people know. I have a neighbor, a man, who often approaches me when I step out of my house, and begins to rant about Jews, though none live here. There are people here (such as minority-rights advocates) who wake in the morning to nooses hanging outside their front doors; the story is in the newspaper, but no effort is made to find the perpetrator, because there is a nonverbal agreement among the vast majority of residents that it's well and good. And everyone knows who did it. A lot of these threatening people are publicly known. But generally, even if you are different, you can coexist here as long as you're discreet about what you are, and as long as you don't look different, such as black.

I'm a single woman. I'm not one of the good men who is going to stop evil from triumphing. I mean, they'd just kill me and be done with me.

But I do wish someone (a cooperation of parents and society) would teach the children some manners, for their own sake. Many children here actually are well-mannered because they learn to behave in church, but many have "meth" moms.

Children are like dogs, they thrive with a little training and some boundaries set for them.

And get a load of this Delta...I know a woman who is a social worker who goes into unfit homes. She sees the most hideous scenes. If meth is present in the home, as long as it is on the table, and the child cannot reach the table, the social worker isn't allowed to report it and bring in the authorities without losing her job with the agency. This woman has a master's degree and is very well qualified, but there are not many jobs available to her. She would like to be out of this job, but she has a house payment to make. Another thing sad about this situation is that this woman would love to have a baby but she doesn't because she can't find a decent man and she doesn't earn enough money to have a child, and she's too responsible to go ahead and have a child herself. But every day she witnesses these meth moms who shouldn't have children, and she says she can do nothing about it.

[Delta40]

I'm a single woman. I'm not one of the good men who is going to stop evil from triumphing.

Fair enough. Now stop complaining about the so-called wrongs comitted against you.

Since it is safe to assume that someone, other than yourself should take it upon themselves to teach children better manners due to the fact that you have excused yourself from this responsibility, you ought to be happy with the consequences of your inaction.

I only take issue when you complain about a situation you freely choose to remain silent on then have the audactity to complain that nobody is doing anything about it. You aren't either. You are accountable for not saying anything.

You made no impression on that girls rudeness other than 'It's ok for you to push in like that. Please, feel welcome to do it to others because it yields results' She has no reason to change! What is it about you that you might change? Why put her rude action on the shoulders of anyone else to deal with as long as it isn't you?

Nobody likes to responds to wrongs committed against them, yet they have plenty to say when out of earshot and amongst sympathizers.

The bottom line is, you either speak up or suck it up. You don't get both.

[Vonny]

Well I love all animals, so I'll just leave it at that.

However, there is at least one other avatar on this site that is cuter than yours so I'll go take a look at that one now.

[JuniperWoolf]

Since I read your post this morning, I've been accosted several times by work colleagues waffling on about their kids....What a pain.

You have no idea how much I hate that. I often tell people that I'll never be a parent because I'm not a breeder, and that I don't want to waste the best years of my life because I still want to "actually accomplish things with my twenties," but to be honest it's just so that I can see the look on their face (heh, I'm bad). I don't really mean any of it.

I'm twenty-three years old, and people have been pressuring me to have kids and get married since I was eighteen. In my town, girls are expected to graduate from highschool (or not, you don't get much **** for dropping out here) and then get married and start producing children right away. Men are expected to graduate (or not) and then start working at the mine, mill or prison then get married and start impregnating her right away. This happens because people can make so much money at the mill, mine or prison. Alberta just-so-happens to have a lot of money, which you would think is a good thing, but it means that on top of people having fancy hemi-trucks that shine like the sun itself and owning your own home at age twenty-one, they also never have to consider bettering themselves or getting a further education. Once I'm done with my degree, I'll be making as much money as a ranger working for the government of Canada as an eighteen-year-old miner in Alberta who started working straight out of highschool. So, the men work and the women who marry them need to feel like they're doing something so they get knocked up.

It never turns out well. There are a lot of bad parents in this town (and not just the indulgent parents who produce spoiled drone children that The Atheist mentioned earlier, I'm talking about bad parents). As for the women who can't work in the mill, mine or prison (and not many women can handle that kind of work - hell, not many men can handle that work, it sucks so much ***, but they plug on through for their entire miserable lives because they get big pay cheques), these women use their children as to inform you that their kids are their reason for existing and that anyone who doesn't have kids is living an empty half-life while at the same time those kids often don't get dinner at night, they go to school dirty because their parents are still in their friggin' partying years and drink or stay out all night having sex with random strangers instead of taking care of their own children that are "so amazing, I've never felt like I had a purpose in life until I had a baby." Keep in mind that these people are between eighteen and twenty six. Then they turn to the few people in town who are like me who didn't start producing at age eighteen and who are maybe picking up a degree or trade and they treat us like freaks. They say "so, are you ever going to have children?" Once their nineteen year old "husbands" (and I use the term loosly, I'd feel a lot more comfortable calling them "temporary meal tickets" or "sperm donors") leave them, they don't have enough money to provide for themselves or their three or four children and they have to get a crappy job (one that doesn't pay well, ie. not the mine, mill or jail - usually they waitress or work at the bank or one of the stores or gas stations) and live out the rest of their lives overworked and full of bitterness. Almost every single one of my mother's friends have lived this life (my mom has lived here since 1971, when she was one years old), and now that I'm out of highschool the majority of the women in my year are doing the exact same thing that their mothers did. The men live out the rest of their lives working a dangerous, difficult job that takes up most of their time and energy, seeing their kids on weekends and drinking way too much beer/smoking way too much weed/buying expensive toys that they don't have time to use. It's such a joke.

It's out of disgust for these people that I have so much contempt for the idea of parenthood. Actually, I don't mean parenthood, I really just mean having kids in your late teens, early twenties. If these girls would just wait a damn minute, go get a degree or a trade to fall back on so that they can make sure that no matter what happens they can take care of their own kids, let themselves mature and party during the early years without anyone who depends on them for their survival, they could still have kids later on when they're in a better position to take care of them. As it is, everyone suffers, themselves and their kids.

/rantover

[Delta40]

Lol. Although I must say, alot of non-producers tend to believe they have a greater insight into parenting than breeders. Coffee breaks with them is more painful....

[JuniperWoolf]

I'm not talking so much about parenting as I am the decision to become a parent in the first place (specifically, when you're still a child yourself).

[ClaesGefvenberg]

As soon as the woman in front of me was done, a young teenage girl darted from no where right in front of me to the counter to check out!

To balance things up a bit, I have experienced similar situations many times... When I was a kid. The only difference was that the grown-ups were the culprits: Customers would barge in right in front of me when I was waiting for my turn, or clerks would ignore me and serve adults ahead of me. I silently vowed not to treat children like that when I grew up myself.

Today, with my youth behind me, I still do my level best to live up to that vow, and it works out very well: Treat people (children and adults alike) with respect and you get respect in turn. My point is that leading by example is the best way to lead. It is also very rewarding.

Maybe we have the beginnings of a new thread here?

/Claes

[Vonny]

That's a good point Claes. (Hope I spelled that right.) Actually, I think the reason why this issue is an irritant to me is that I'm not big. I'm smaller probably than that kid that darted in front of me. I also have always looked younger than my age! So everyone goes in front of me, and men especially get waited on before me, although some men are gentlemanly and will remind the waiter or checker (whatever) that I was there first.

Hey, I'm definitely ready for a new thread, so why not start one?! This thread has gotten worn frazzled. Only I may not be back to it for a little bit, since I've got some company coming and I have to get ready.

[ClaesGefvenberg]

Hey, I'm definitely ready for a new thread, so why not start one?! This thread has gotten worn frazzled. Only I may not be back to it for a little bit, since I've got some company coming and I have to get ready.

Let's cobble something together tonight then. Right now I'm off to work, and judging from the way urgent tasks poured in yesterday I won't be back home until late.

/Claes

[Vonny]

Hi Claes, I'm not sure when "tonight" is. I think we have different night times.

I don't think I would be good at starting a thread. It's not really like me to initiate much of anything. It's not much like me to post in a forum at all. What I've discovered, suddenly, is that there's something I'm getting wrong with it, like I'm socially awkward. I have an odd sense of humor that looks different when typed! I think I've inadvertently offended some people. And then some things I've said have simply come out differently than I intended, such as recently comparing someone to a puppy or kitten, Ackk, it came out wrong!! I didn't mean that. It's just that I'm an animal person... cats, horses, just about any animal... so I think in animal terms a lot. I'm seeing that writing in a forum requires some practice, so I'll take this a bit slower and let you cobble together another thread when you have time!

Well, that's off topic, but one thing I think about often, actually one of the determinants in my decision not to have children, is what if you ended up with a Down's Syndrome child, or an otherwise horrendously disabled child? It would be nightmare to think of him/her outliving the parent and there being no one to look out for him/her. It would be very difficult to watch a child suffer from a condition such as juvenile diabetes. Plus, in my country, many people lack healthcare, and what healthcare we do have is being dismantled, so who will take care of the kids? (This woman I know who has a master's degree and works full-time as a social worker, has no healthcare at all, and she is not unusual!) I think about, what if my child was abducted or killed in a car accident? I don't think I could handle any of it.

I've heard there are some good marriages out there. But if you get it wrong, it can drain the life from you. With relationships where you share contracts... buying a house with someone, combining bank accounts... ug, it can be so difficult to untwist that! My brother, who was never going to make this mistake, finally found the *right* woman, married her and then spent the next ten years trying to extricate himself. To separate they sold their house after the housing market had crashed and took a huge loss. They had no children but he almost lost custody of one of his dogs to her.

Growing up, I was dragged through 4 marriages of my mom's, plus she had 4 kids that she really couldn't raise. I think, life is short and I won't have all of these things to encumber me! It's better to travel light and have more fun.

[Bluehound]

It's better to travel light and have more fun.

Indeed

[ClaesGefvenberg]

Hi Claes, I'm not sure when "tonight" is. I think we have different night times.

Errrr.... "Tonight" ought to have been a couple of nights ago, but as usual life happened, so I am a wee bit overdue here... Sorry about that. As for times, I am at GMT +1 (or +2 now that DST is in effect). I'll do something about that other thread later (Hopefully today )

I don't think I would be good at starting a thread. It's not really like me to initiate much of anything. It's not much like me to post in a forum at all.

Why ever not? Tell you what, Vonny: Just a few years back few of us were any good at starting any threads any old where... Because there were no forums to start them in. That is how new this forum thing really is, and the fact is that we are all still learning how to deal with the new opportunity. I wonder if you are not being much to hard on yourself?

What I've discovered, suddenly, is that there's something I'm getting wrong with it, like I'm socially awkward. I have an odd sense of humor that looks different when typed!

Well... Join the club. We all get it wrong every now and then, and not only in forums, but that should not stop us. Besides, from what I've seen thus far you are doing just as well as anyone else in that respect, and forget about the socially awkward bit. If you feel that way it is probably just because you demand too much from yourself.

I think I've inadvertently offended some people. And then some things I've said have simply come out differently than I intended, such as recently comparing someone to a puppy or kitten, Ackk, it came out wrong!! I didn't mean that.

Like I said, it happens to all of us, and I'm sure it wasn't all that bad. You can take that from yours truly: I regularly put my foot in my mouth, so I should know.

one thing I think about often, actually one of the determinants in my decision not to have children, is what if ...

Yes, what if? Believe me when i say that we all worry to some extent. Anyone even vaguely contemplating getting children are asking themselves those questions, but in the vast majority of cases our worries are unfounded. I cannot offer any advice in that respect. We all have to make our individual decisions.

I've heard there are some good marriages out there.

Yes there are. There are even some fantastic and some abysmal ones, but again, most of them are somewhere in between those extremes. Once more I have no advice to offer, but I can say that I myself am not complaining.

Growing up, I was dragged through 4 marriages of my mom's, plus she had 4 kids that she really couldn't raise. I think, life is short and I won't have all of these things to encumber me! It's better to travel light and have more fun.

Four...? Small wonder then, that you have your doubts, but remember that this is not the norm. I think we should learn from the past but try not to let it hem us in (easier said than done, I know).

/Claes

[Vonny]

Hi Claes,

Thank you for replying, and thank you for the encouragement. Don't feel bad that you were busy. I get overwhelmed too.

I guess as practice, I will, one time only, write a very long-winded post that I'll feel a little odd about later.

Um, one reason I feel that I'll make a mistake (like right now!) is that I sometimes go through spells when I don't sleep for 36 hours. Then I sleep for 5 hours, or less, and get up and go to work. And then I repeat this. I'm not sure how I function! There's no reason for it. I mean, no drugs or anything. I've just always had a lot of energy and I walk around my house all night cleaning and stuff. After a while, things go haywire, like my balance is off and my head is ditzy.

Well, I couldn't start a thread. I know that sounds silly, but I have an irrational fear of doing that; I simply couldn't force myself to do it. I've used the computer of course for school and work, shopping, emailing, and then one other forum that I read without posting in too much, but I haven't ventured out much online. I also have watched hardly any TV in my life. Often (every day) I think that I appear retarded because someone will start to talk about something from TV that is obvious to everyone else, but I'm oblivious. Concerning our culture, I'm mostly at a loss. I have a TV for DVDs, but no TV channels. Once in a while I watch a movie. All that I know about network TV is what people tell me. With TV, for one thing, I can't deal with advertising, and the way it constantly jumps from one thing to another because it makes static in my head. I don't have a cell phone or a camera. It's not that I can't afford those items. Mostly, I don't have the patience for pushing all of those buttons. (Other than for business) I only talk on the landline phone once a week, to one person, because most people's conversing bores me. I do have an MP3 because I like music, but mostly not vocals. I don't know why, but only in the last few months have I sat down with the computer, browsing, for any length of time. Oh yeah, I just remembered that I also don't have a car. I can drive and I have a licence, but I don't like to drive. I walk or let other people drive me. Gee, I never realized how backwards I was until just now, as I make this list. ...It's just like I never thought of myself as a "nonbreeder" until this thread. ...And one of the reasons I don't want kids is that I couldn't take the chattering. If people jabber at me a lot, my brain short circuits.

A few more observations. I realized over the last few days that children are often more pleasant than adults. Old ladies are often absolutely horrible.

Yesterday was the first day of beautiful weather we've had since about last September, so I went with my brother and his dogs for a run. The park has a grassy area, and the rest is wooded with trails. I thought there might be many people in the park, but when we got there, no one was there. I said to my brother, can you believe that no one is here, on a day like today?" He said, "This shows just how messed up this world is. There's not a family, not an animal, nothing." It was good, but it was strange. I mean, why aren't people outside on a beautiful day, especially when we've had snow and rain forever? For a while we threw toys for the dogs to chase. Finally, a group of people showed up there. They held an Easter egg hunt, and it lasted for all of about 15 frantic minutes. The mothers arrived wearing high heels. All of the parents took out cameras to photograph their children. Then they were gone. The parents will carry those photos of their children at the park for an Easter egg hunt, no doubt slapping each other in the face until they fall down, but no one will ever admit, (or even realize themselves) that mainly what they had was a photo op, staged "family values." ...Oh, I'm not saying that real families don't exist.

I love to watch the dogs' eyes when we throw the sticks for them. They FOCUS. Their eyes are so keen and so focused. They wait for the stick to be thrown for them, and their eyes are focused on that stick every second, if you go a little to the right with it or to the left, their eyes are there. They also know which stick belongs to which, so each dog will wait for its respective stick to be thrown and will not chase the other dog's stick, even though they are so excited to chase it that they can barely contain themselves. They have that "zen" thing mastered. They don't get bored after 15 minutes; they will keep that up for as long as we play with them. No attention deficit disorder there. I find that my own mind begins to calm down and focus as I'm watching the dogs. I'm always thinking, wow, I wish I could focus like that!


Anyways this forum is fun. It's different. Claes it's a good thing you're a speed reader if you read this!