I saw the realms of God a personal experience of life beyond life

[anzki4]

One thing fore sure Atheist, we are all going to find out if God is real or not.

I am putting my wager on that he is, if I am wrong I have lost nothing , if you are wrong you have lost everything.

And what if you happened to pick a wrong one?

1 let's say the odds of a god existing is 0.001. (I'm being very generous here!)
2 Therefore the odds of there not being one are 99.999%
3 Whatever the payoff, I am taking a 99.999% chance of wasting a lifetime and whole lot of cash on a premise as silly as the Loch Ness Monster.

I am quoting atheist and adding the fact that you have to pick just the correct god. How many are there? Pretty much I would say

0.001 divided by the total number of gods, would make the chance of your god existing pretty minimal. Yet I am not too much for a science for the absolute meter for life, so if your faith brings you happiness, cherish it.

[Paulclem]

One thing fore sure Atheist, we are all going to find out if God is real or not.

I am putting my wager on that he is, if I am wrong I have lost nothing , if you are wrong you have lost everything.

That's one of the problems I have with a creator God. Why has an Atheist lost everything? The earthly conditions were created by God, and so the conditions for Atheism were too. Shouldn't the measure of a person be how much good they have done, how positive to others they are and how beneficial they have been whatever they believe? Paradise Lost talks of Lucifer's monstrous and self destructive pride, but if not being recognised and praised and worshipped to the exclusion of other Gods isn't pride, then I don't know what is.

Buddhism, for example, talks of unseen compassion - a compassion for others without recognition or credit, but just for its own sake. Surely that's a more Godly stance?

[The Atheist]

Shouldn't the measure of a person be how much good they have done, how positive to others they are and how beneficial they have been whatever they believe?

Alas, that is just a human approach to a divine question - gods don't use sloppy mortal morality.

You'll be ok, though - most christians believe your lot are just misguided, but goodly enough to let into the harpy place.

[Paulclem]

Alas, that is just a human approach to a divine question - gods don't use sloppy mortal morality.

You'll be ok, though - most christians believe your lot are just misguided, but goodly enough to let into the harpy place.

I'm not convinced by ineffable nature. Anyway "I" won't be around.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

So, from what I can gather, Atheist, by your definition of what an atheist is, I'm an atheist and not an agnostic, which is what I've been labeling myself as.

As far as I can tell, you don't believe in God, but you don't seem to ever say he doesn't exist. Atheists, as I've always assumed, lived under the assumption that there was no God, no afterlife; that there's nothing more than what we can sense.

As an agnostic, I don't believe in God, but that doesn't make me consider that there may be a God, and I may be wrong. Every atheist I've ever met believes (yes, I use "believes" with intent) that there is no God, and is certain of this.

Add to this that the OED definition (which I know you discount, but I offer it up anyways) of "agnostic" is:

"a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God"

The bolded part seems to describe your belief to a tee, as shown by this statement:

It's really very, very simple; an atheist does not believe in god/s, a position which requires no faith at all.

[The Atheist]

As an agnostic, I don't believe in God, but that doesn't make me consider that there may be a God, and I may be wrong. Every atheist I've ever met believes (yes, I use "believes" with intent) that there is no God, and is certain of this.

Add to this that the OED definition (which I know you discount, but I offer it up anyways) of "agnostic" is:

"a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God"

The bolded part seems to describe your belief to a tee, as shown by this statement:

You're onto it, yes you're an atheist!

If you look at the OED description of agnosticism, it is really quite senseless:

nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena

Making a statement that nothing can be known is about as unequivocal as possible and therefore more of a faith position than many theists. I'm not sure why dictionaries have such trouble defining atheism & agnosticism. Dawkins manages it easily and he's nobody's lexicographer. Agnosticism should be the simple "don't know" second meaning given that most people use it as.

I'm surprised you say that every atheist you've met is a definite believer in the non-existence of god, because I converse with hundreds of atheists and only a very small percentage make that statement. The hardest of hardline atheists usually uses Dawkins' 6.9 on the 7-point scale to signify their level of disbelief.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

Well, it doesn't just say nothing can be known, it says, "nothing can be known ... beyond material phenomena."

And, every atheist I've ever talked to amounts to about three, and we really didn't get into a deep philosophical discussion, so your numerous discussions definitely amount to more than mine.

So, what are the differences between agnosticism and atheism, then?

[The Atheist]

So, what are the differences between agnosticism and atheism, then?

Not much. Mostly in the minds of agnostics who [very briefly]:

A Don't like being called atheists (which unless they believe in a god, they are)

B Tend to be religious apologists, because "we don't know" means we should be more tolerant of religion.

Atheists tend not to stand for that kind of nonsense. (and there are a couple of threads which expand on the above if you're that way inclined)



There might be a complicating factor in that many liberal theists actively support and claim agnosticism. I just don't like fence-sitting myself.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

A friend of mine, an atheist, explained it to me that there are different degrees of atheism. He says the majority are Agnostic Atheists, which is what you've described: Those who don't believe in a god, but don't claim to know that a god doesn't exist. The other end of the spectrum has the Strong Atheist, the one that is 99% certain that there is no God (my friend also says he has not met any atheist who is willing to say there is 100% chance that there is no God).

[The Atheist]

The other end of the spectrum has the Strong Atheist, the one that is 99% certain that there is no God

That would include me.

(my friend also says he has not met any atheist who is willing to say there is 100% chance that there is no God).

There you go. They're rarer than you think - especially outside of high school.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

There you go. They're rarer than you think - especially outside of high school.

I must say, this has all been very enlightening.