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Thread: UFOs

  1. #46
    Registered User Emil Miller's Avatar
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    Well, of course, but who says that alien life forms have visited this planet, apart from a few unqualified cranks? Perhaps, it is precisely because they can't, that aliens have developed a means of sending probes to Earth to investigate life here.
    Of course experts can be wrong, but the weight of evidence for UFOs and the attempts by official bodies to deny them is obviously irrefutable in the light of the video, where even people who were involved in the cover up have broken silence to admit what has been happening?

    I have for many years, despite the statistical probability of life on other planets, always said: where is your proof? If, however, you can prove that the witnesses have a motive for lying, how else do you explain their behaviour, given that they are people who have no reason to deceive anyone?
    "L'art de la statistique est de tirer des conclusions erronèes a partir de chiffres exacts." Napoléon Bonaparte.

    "Je crois que beaucoup de gens sont dans cet état d’esprit: au fond, ils ne sentent pas concernés par l’Histoire. Mais pourtant, de temps à autre, l’Histoire pose sa main sur eux." Michel Houellebecq.

  2. #47
    Orwellian The Atheist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Bean View Post
    Well, of course, but who says that alien life forms have visited this planet, apart from a few unqualified cranks? Perhaps, it is precisely because they can't, that aliens have developed a means of sending probes to Earth to investigate life here.
    You don't think they'd be smart enough to try radio transmissions first?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Bean View Post
    Of course experts can be wrong, but the weight of evidence for UFOs and the attempts by official bodies to deny them is obviously irrefutable in the light of the video, where even people who were involved in the cover up have broken silence to admit what has been happening?
    I have yet to see any credible evidence of cover up. Ever.

    Why would it be covered up? Who's covering it up?

    See, these claims make no sense whatsoever. UFOs certainly exist in that they are unidentified, but there is always a rational explanation. People are just too lazy or deluded to look for it.

    As far as cover ups go, we have the excllent examples of things that weren't covered up, despite attempts to keep them that way. Governments leak like sieves, which is why Wikileaks has so much information. Watergate, Iran/Contra - you name it, things are never covered up for long.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Bean View Post
    I have for many years, despite the statistical probability of life on other planets, always said: where is your proof? If, however, you can prove that the witnesses have a motive for lying, how else do you explain their behaviour, given that they are people who have no reason to deceive anyone?
    Well, I gave you plenty of examples of people who either delude themselves or lie for their 15 minutes of fame, so why people would lie about it is pretty simple. Along with that, I keep repeating that people are very, very easily misled. Go check some optical illusions - the human brain is easy to fool, and the eyes easiest of all.

    Site 1 (Comes with multiple, but harmless, popups)

    Site 2 Some really good stuff here.
    Go to work, get married, have some kids, pay your taxes, pay your bills, watch your tv, follow fashion, act normal, obey the law and repeat after me: "I am free."

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  3. #48
    sound of music soundofmusic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
    Can I just get this right?

    The thing was huge, above a populated area and nobody else saw it?
    Just a thought here. I love to look up in the sky; my neighbors think I'm batty when I talk about the orange full moon or the brightness of the stars; they only look in the sky if they get an email telling them something is eclipsing....

    Now, I am of the opinion that if a five story pink elephant flew soundlessly overhead, he would have to free his spincter before they would notice...and perhaps not even then

  4. #49
    Registered User Emil Miller's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
    You don't think they'd be smart enough to try radio transmissions first?



    I have yet to see any credible evidence of cover up. Ever.

    Why would it be covered up? Who's covering it up?

    See, these claims make no sense whatsoever. UFOs certainly exist in that they are unidentified, but there is always a rational explanation. People are just too lazy or deluded to look for it.

    As far as cover ups go, we have the excllent examples of things that weren't covered up, despite attempts to keep them that way. Governments leak like sieves, which is why Wikileaks has so much information. Watergate, Iran/Contra - you name it, things are never covered up for long.



    Well, I gave you plenty of examples of people who either delude themselves or lie for their 15 minutes of fame, so why people would lie about it is pretty simple. Along with that, I keep repeating that people are very, very easily misled. Go check some optical illusions - the human brain is easy to fool, and the eyes easiest of all.

    Site 1 (Comes with multiple, but harmless, popups)

    Site 2 Some really good stuff here.
    According to the man from the Ministry of Defence, there isn't a rational explanation for at least 5% of the many sitings they have investigated.
    I find it unlikely that people as disparate as scientists, fighter pilots, civil aircraft crew, and physicists are all deluded or too lazy to find a rational explanation for what they saw, or that such people are all involved in trying to get 15 minutes of fame or have suffered optical illusions.
    If you haven't seen any evidence of a cover up, it's probably because you weren't meant to. Having worked for central government, I personally know of things that are withheld from the general public and I wasn't in the least surprised at the Wikileaks revelations.
    I don't know why putative aliens haven't used radio, unless the concept of radio waves is unknown to them or, perhaps, even dangerous to them.
    I agree 100% that people are very, very easily misled:to an extent that Wikileaks has only scratched the surface of.
    "L'art de la statistique est de tirer des conclusions erronèes a partir de chiffres exacts." Napoléon Bonaparte.

    "Je crois que beaucoup de gens sont dans cet état d’esprit: au fond, ils ne sentent pas concernés par l’Histoire. Mais pourtant, de temps à autre, l’Histoire pose sa main sur eux." Michel Houellebecq.

  5. #50
    Registered User prendrelemick's Avatar
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    Having just watched a programme investigating reality, I now know that we are all part of a cosmic holographic projection anyway. This may seem a little far fetched, but is actually very liberating, it means all sorts of "impossible" things can easily happen.

    Atheist. Your arguement seems to have two prongs:- They can't get here, and if they could, why would they ?
    The first is probably true, given the confines of speed and mass and energy equations. But there are reasons, including observed phenomena, to think that Einstien was a little hastey in declaring the speed of light as the ultimate limit. There are definitely things we know we don't know (thanks Donald) in that field, before we consider unknown unknowns.
    The second is spurious, we can't know their minds, but it is irrelevent until we see a way for them to travel here.

    Now if logic and physics can't absolutely deny them, I reckon we are really left with those eye witnesses. Take away all the cranks, the liars, the mistaken and the duped and there is just enough left to intrigue.

    Here's a question. Could an alien space craft be mistaken for a weather balloon or an International Space Station, or does it only happen the other way round?
    Last edited by prendrelemick; 01-19-2011 at 10:03 AM.

  6. #51
    riding a cosmic vortex MystyrMystyry's Avatar
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    Her name is Sophie Ellis-Bextor, and she's an alien I'm tellin' ya!

    But were they all to look that good - then every red-blooded man and woman would put their hand up

    The other one is a little green man

    I don't see why the need for cover-ups, or anything military/governmental - that stuff's alien as alien to me anyway

    The thing with Atheist's question regarding radio message - what!? How would that be satisfactory?

    If we were to send a radio message and set up a whole bunch of spacedishes in neat rows, and all that we received in return for our effort was a pile of undecipherable static - oh, hang on... We already tried that before we sent Voyager, didn't we..?


    It's not a thing that most in the know really feel like discussing because after a very short while it's not that interesting - certainly not as a pub topic: there is no real story to it, there's not many thrills or jokes you can wring out of it - but it is odd that non-knowers don't have stories, thrills or jokes either, while knowers are quite happy to get on with their lives

    Is it possible that non-knowers are actually jealous? If that's the case they're welcome to it

    But it is weirder still that if a schizophrenic (before the condition was recognised) confided to someone in the 19c that they heard voices they were- what..?

    The Bible's full of people hearing voices and seeing visions, and, after money, it's the cornerstone of Western Culture - perhaps if you listened to the seers more you could get up to speed with the new religion and say you met and talked to the new prophets

    Or you could just keep reducing the number of stories you have at your disposal - 'cause dang if the planet don't need mo' them 'pinionated bores

    Personally I'd be the first to say that the sites I've visited seem to be run by 99 percenters who seem actually interested in milking a bit of profit out of their 'experience' - and if I don't believe them, what hope is there for any on my - opposite - side?

    So one thing to keep clear - I can call myself a knower, a seer (or even a 'genius' if I want) - but to the doubters, I'm just a claimer

    But it honestly doesn't bother me either way because I'm on my own with it

    Perhaps I went briefly nuts and imagined it? What difference would it actually make to me?

    Absolutely none - I didn't go out of my way to see anything extraordinary but rather the universe went out of its way to introduce me to something I had hitherto - and even now - the least interest in

    Just keep looking at everything and maybe one day if you're (un)lucky you'll find an SEP sitting in your backyard

    Good onya if ya do! Good onya if ya don't!
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  7. #52
    Orwellian The Atheist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soundofmusic View Post
    Just a thought here. I love to look up in the sky; my neighbors think I'm batty when I talk about the orange full moon or the brightness of the stars; they only look in the sky if they get an email telling them something is eclipsing....

    Now, I am of the opinion that if a five story pink elephant flew soundlessly overhead, he would have to free his spincter before they would notice...and perhaps not even then
    Haha! In the case of the masses, you're dead right - we didn't evolve to look up.

    I mean people who spend hours every night looking at the sky. There are millions of amateur astronomers scanning the skies every night, hoping to discover something we haven't seen before.

    Imagine having a comet named after you? Or even better, being the first person to take a picture of an alien craft entering the atmosphere!

    Quote Originally Posted by prendrelemick View Post
    Atheist. Your arguement seems to have two prongs:- They can't get here, and if they could, why would they ?
    Not "why would they", because exploration is nothing new, but "why would they indulge in that amount of effort only to empty their ashtrays on some bloke in the middle of the Nullabor Plain?" (stolen)

    Quote Originally Posted by prendrelemick View Post
    The first is probably true, given the confines of speed and mass and energy equations. But there are reasons, including observed phenomena, to think that Einstien was a little hastey in declaring the speed of light as the ultimate limit. There are definitely things we know we don't know (thanks Donald) in that field, before we consider unknown unknowns.
    Oh sure, anything is possible in science, which is why I stick to "very, very unlikely".

    If we have a look at how much we do understand of the universe, we now know quite a bit about black holes, big bangs, quarks, dark energy, antimatter and Higgs bosons - things which would have had the theorists in a white jacket with ties at the back only a century ago.

    Quote Originally Posted by prendrelemick View Post
    The second is spurious, we can't know their minds, but it is irrelevent until we see a way for them to travel here.
    Sure.

    So, let's assume that some UFO sightings are actually aliens.

    If they are, then several things must be true:

    1 They have travelled an immense distance. We know for sure that there are no planets within x light years of earth. There is no possibility of beings living on asteroids, rocks, comets or stars, so it must be true.

    2 They have travelled specifically to earth. I don't think this is too big a jump of logic, because the size and scope of the universe is such that it is impossible to accept that an alien species just cruises around the universe for fun and happens to run into an inhabited place every now and then. UFO sightings are all in the atmosphere, so it is certain that visits were planned. Otherwise, it's not akin to looking for a needle in a haystack, but looking for one grain of sand in the entire Sahara.

    3 They arrive on earth and flit about, making no effort to contact anyone. Yet, they aren't invisible, because people see them.

    We're left with aliens being Douglas Adams' teasers.

    Quote Originally Posted by prendrelemick View Post
    Now if logic and physics can't absolutely deny them, I reckon we are really left with those eye witnesses. Take away all the cranks, the liars, the mistaken and the duped and there is just enough left to intrigue.
    No question it's intriguing - the debate's been going on since people first looked up.

    Quote Originally Posted by prendrelemick View Post
    Here's a question. Could an alien space craft be mistaken for a weather balloon or an International Space Station, or does it only happen the other way round?
    I'm pretty sure it's the latter, because we know where terrestrial-based objects are. Going by the rash of sightings of UFOs on the exact path of the ISS over here, I'm pretty confident on that.

    Quote Originally Posted by MystyrMystyry View Post
    Just keep looking at everything and maybe one day if you're (un)lucky you'll find an SEP sitting in your backyard
    Alas, I know for too much about far too many SEPs here already, and I can't blame aliens for any of 'em.
    Go to work, get married, have some kids, pay your taxes, pay your bills, watch your tv, follow fashion, act normal, obey the law and repeat after me: "I am free."

    Anon

  8. #53
    Registered User prendrelemick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post




    Sure.

    So, let's assume that some UFO sightings are actually aliens.

    If they are, then several things must be true:

    1 They have travelled an immense distance. We know for sure that there are no planets within x light years of earth. There is no possibility of beings living on asteroids, rocks, comets or stars, so it must be true.

    2 They have travelled specifically to earth. I don't think this is too big a jump of logic, because the size and scope of the universe is such that it is impossible to accept that an alien species just cruises around the universe for fun and happens to run into an inhabited place every now and then. UFO sightings are all in the atmosphere, so it is certain that visits were planned. Otherwise, it's not akin to looking for a needle in a haystack, but looking for one grain of sand in the entire Sahara.

    3 They arrive on earth and flit about, making no effort to contact anyone. Yet, they aren't invisible, because people see them.



    .
    Number one is a given.

    For two and three you are using Human values and logic, Earthling.
    Last edited by prendrelemick; 01-19-2011 at 05:35 PM.

  9. #54
    sound of music soundofmusic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
    Haha! In the case of the masses, you're dead right - we didn't evolve to look up.

    I mean people who spend hours every night looking at the sky. There are millions of amateur astronomers scanning the skies every night, hoping to discover something we haven't seen before.

    Imagine having a comet named after you? Or even better, being the first person to take a picture of an alien craft entering the atmosphere!
    Or to look down; which has caused me a fair amount of problems with cobblestone walkways and the favorite toileting areas of dogs and cats.

    I think I actually like looking at the sky for the same reason I like to look at the ocean, gardens, and handsome men...

    I really hope never to see an alien; I am sure (from the information I've gotten from my favorite sci-fi shows) that while they are far superior to us and have overcome light speed and gravity; they have destroyed their planets and are here to take our water and eat us

    Or worse yet, they may be capitalist, missionaries or here to share their scientific discoveries, something that will, no doubt, force me to pay higher taxes or exercise

  10. #55
    Orwellian The Atheist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soundofmusic View Post
    I really hope never to see an alien; I am sure (from the information I've gotten from my favorite sci-fi shows) that while they are far superior to us and have overcome light speed and gravity; they have destroyed their planets and are here to take our water and eat us

    Or worse yet, they may be capitalist, missionaries or here to share their scientific discoveries, something that will, no doubt, force me to pay higher taxes or exercise
    With all the anal probing, I think they have a far different agenda!
    Go to work, get married, have some kids, pay your taxes, pay your bills, watch your tv, follow fashion, act normal, obey the law and repeat after me: "I am free."

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  11. #56
    riding a cosmic vortex MystyrMystyry's Avatar
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    We should all invest in one of these:
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    Last edited by MystyrMystyry; 01-21-2011 at 03:06 PM.

  12. #57
    malkavian manolia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
    With all the anal probing, I think they have a far different agenda!
    hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

    Cartman gets an anal probe hahahaha
    (you made me laugh in an otherwise miserable day. thanks)
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  13. #58
    Orwellian The Atheist's Avatar
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    Always a pleasure!

    I was wondering, has anyone mentioned SETI yet?

    You'd think that if visible UFOs visited earth, SETI would probably notice. They've spent billions looking and all they have to show for it Jodie Foster.
    Go to work, get married, have some kids, pay your taxes, pay your bills, watch your tv, follow fashion, act normal, obey the law and repeat after me: "I am free."

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  14. #59
    Registered User prendrelemick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MystyrMystyry View Post
    It's sort of a generalization of functional, matrix, and similar algebras.

    Say you have a set of elements S. An operator is some function that maps S back onto itself. So lets take:

    A:S?S, B:S?S, s?S.

    Then A(s)?S, so we can take B(A(s)), and that will also belong to S. In this case, we can define an operator C:S?S, such that C(s)=B(A(s)) for all s?S. Such definition is consistent with a non-Abelian group, and the multiplication notation is used. That is we write C=BA. Action of operator on the set element can also be written in such notation. Because of the above, B(As)=(BA)s, and the identity function also exists, providing with an identity element, IA=AI=A. The operation, however, does not commute, so in general, AB?BA.

    If there is also an addition group on the set S, we can define the same group on the operators, by requesting that (A+B)s = As+Bs. That allows us to play with the operators as if they were a ring, keeping in mind that the specific way they are "added" together is inherited from the way that the elements of the set are added together. That is, for every s,t?S, there must be an element s+t?S that follow all rules of addition.

    Real functions are probably the first example of this you run into. For f,g:R?R, it holds that f?g(x)=f(g(x)), and (f+g)(x)=f(x)+g(x). That is simply the way that function composition and addition are defined. Typically, however, working with operators in an abstract way becomes useful when you start talking about functionals. Most basic example is function differentiation*. Operator ?²/?x² is defined as a product (?/?x)(?/?x), which is defined through its action on a function. That is: (?²/?x²)f(x) = (?/?x) ((?/?x)f(x)). And since we do have addition operation available, we can make use of it with operators acting on functions as well. Laplacian operator in 3 dimensions, for example, is defined as ?² = (?²/?x² + ?²/?y² + ?²/?z²).

    When you start operating with objects like commutators, defined as [A,B] = AB-BA, it becomes extremely inconvenient to keep track of which of the above algebras you are dealing with, and simply use the generalized notation for operators. After all, the underlying algebra is the same.

    This kind of notation is extremely useful when you have to describe behavior of something that is strictly speaking a multidimensional vector (which you'd need to describe various qualities of the sequel) and the way it evolves in time. So it seems like whatever that model will end up being, operator algebra would be a good way to describe it.


    * Ok, so strictly speaking Functionals need to map to a real number, so they aren't exactly operators. a functional is something like f:GxS?Rn, where G={g|g:S?Rn} and GxS denotes a Cartesian product. But lets look at differentiation as a functional. Strictly speaking, we have something like (?f(x)/?x)|x=z. That is, derivative of f(x) at specific point x=z. Let us now look at collection of all such points for all z?R. What we get now is a function mapping from R to R. So we took a real function f(x), and we get another real function, one we denote as ?f/?x. In a similar manner, any functional can be viewed as an operator acting on a set of functions.

    I think this turned into a rant. I did not intend it to drag on this long. Hope it is of some use to somebody.

    Er yeah, that's what I thought.

  15. #60
    malkavian manolia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
    Always a pleasure!

    I was wondering, has anyone mentioned SETI yet?

    You'd think that if visible UFOs visited earth, SETI would probably notice. They've spent billions looking and all they have to show for it Jodie Foster.
    hehehehe or maybe they are made of dark matter so we can't actually see them

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