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I read recently that there has been a decline in poetry due to its lack of commercial value, i.e in a modern consumer society it carries little purchasing power. I'm ignorant to contemporary poetry and I'd like some advice on where to start, whom with and particularly modern genres.
Thanks guys,
I generally read the daily emails coming from Rattle (http://www.rattle.com/poetry/) and I also like the poetry published on Snakeskin (http://www.simmers1.webspace.virginmedia.com/index.html).
As far as genres go, I divide what I read into three groups: (1) metrical poetry, (2) rambling poetry and (3) unintelligible poetry which includes some metrical poetry. I enjoy the first two categories better than the third.
Start with Human Chain. From there, who knows?
Contemporary poetry is in a crisis because the contemporary soul is in a crisis. Or did you think that contemporary culture or the MFA actually foster the poetic element?
Even the best of them, even the ones who know how to write and can sometimes obliquely articulate it (average age: 70), produce middling work.
As far as yours truly can tell, nobody yet has pressed against our age in a meaningful way. The romance image of Byron writing against a Grecian pillar; Faulkner and Bukowski, tortured and drunk at the typewriter. The symbolism that we long for, flattened of course from their reality.
1. Never read literary magazines.
2. Your only hope is web forums and weirdos.
3. Sniff the language first. The language is not as important as what the language points at, but can be hugely informative in the first degree (ie, does one continue on?). The language always gives away the phonies, the non-believers.
J
There has not been a decline in poetry, more a decline in published poetry.
There's plenty of people writing poems, and going along to spoken word events.
However, not many people are reading much in the way of published poetry (in the UK anyway).
There is a poetry circuit out there, it's just that most poets seem to earn money from teaching & performing rather than publishing.
The trend at the moment seems very much to be poetry off the page, rather than on it (not a critique- just an observation.)
https://img.washingtonpost.com/wp-ap...pa1.png&w=1484
That aside: MFA programs churn out bull****, poetry is less often taught in schools at the ages required for immersion, people don't read more poetry than they write, etc. Additionally few people who study poetry also study the classic languages that provide, if we want to listen to TS Eliot/ToiletS for a minute, a greater connection to past talent. Most would rather be the solution rather than the platinum, or forego platinum for a plastic. Either way, the connection to tradition is weaker than ever.
(also, to be fair, the united states as a metric is weak -- It's been a while since I've seen anyone in my University library read ANYTHING, let alone POETRY that isn't trash like Plath or Larkin. No idea if Europe's facing the same crisis.)
I think Plath is overrated. Same with Neruda. I haven't read enough Larkin to really know, but I do remember that one about what parents do to their kids. I haven't got a clue what they do in MFA programs.
However, people do listen to poetry when they listen to song lyrics.
No, they listen to song lyrics when they listen to song lyrics.Quote:
Originally Posted by YesNo
I don't know that song lyrics can't count as poetry (they certainly count as literature since they are written down), but regardless music has certainly subsumed lyric poetry in modern culture. Much like film has completely subsumed theatre.
Oh and of course you never see Americans read anything! They're all complete idiots down there. That's why no scientific breakthrough has ever been made by an American, and no good books have ever been written by any American writers. Duh.
Poetry is as poetry does:Quote:
Originally Posted by CptDesire
Always will and always was.
(In other words, it doesn't have to make the literati happy to be effective).
Double your pleasure
Double your fun
With double good double good
Doublemint gum
I want chicken
I want liver
Meow meow meow meow
Please deliver
My bologna has a first name
It's O-S-C-A-R
My bologna has a second name
It's M-E-Y-E-R
Oh, I love to eat it every day
And if you ask me why I'll say
'Cuz Oscar Meyer has a way
With B-O-L-O-G-N-A!
Like a good neighbor,
State Farm is there.
--B. Manilow
Do like Wittegstein and blame the language. When someone says "read poetry", should say "read poems", as poetry is something else than a form and we find in novels too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Clopin
The point is that when written down they rarely (more truthfully, never) reach the heights of standalone poetry. When challenged with the idea of the "adept" songwriter/"poet", the usual probationary caricature is Leonard Cohen, who, let's be honest, writes well below the level of even bad poets such as Poe, Larkin, and Hughes, and at his very best might hit the levee at the Annabelle Lee marker. Certainly nothing to wet panties over, let alone one's feet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Clopin
Music may have subsumed written poetry, and film theatre, but that doesn't give any inherent merit to either. Though I think it's very fair to say that while theatre and film are matched, lyrical music is almost certainly inferior to written lyrics in content and form, even at the level of opera libretto.
Did I hit a nerve?Quote:
Originally Posted by Clopin
That if your experience is limited to english or north america. In portuguese, we would be talking about Vinicius de Moraes, a major lyrics writer and as poet, one of the best writers of sonnet in portuguese i know. This even withoutt considering some Byron poems were song lyrics who survive quite well as reading. But the point is quantitative, if someone is reading lyrics (not listening the music) this means peoplee reading a poetic form even if not that good.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikonani
Nikonani must be Canadian. Leonard Cohen? No way an American mentions that guy before Bob Dylan. Frankly, I think of rappers as modern troubadors and enjoy the kind of wordplay that JayZ, Kanye West, Eminem, Tupac, Public Enemy, Big Daddy Kane, Run DMC, Dr. Dre, Snoop Dogg, or Eric B and Rakim bring to their songs. Jadakiss' song "Why" often reminds me of Christopher Smart's "Jubilate Agno."
For I will consider my Cat Jeoffry.
For he is the servant of the Living God, duly and daily serving him.
For at the first glance of the glory of God in the East he worships in his way.
For is this done by wreathing his body seven times round with elegant quickness.
For then he leaps up to catch the musk, which is the blessing of God upon his prayer.
For he rolls upon prank to work it in.
For having done duty and received blessing he begins to consider himself.
For this he performs in ten degrees.
For first he looks upon his forepaws to see if they are clean.
For secondly he kicks up behind to clear away there.
Yo, why is Jadakiss as hard as it gets
Why is the industry designed to keep the artist in debt
And why them dudes ain't ridin' if there part of your set
And why they never get it poppin' but they party to death
Yea, and why they gon give you life for a murder
Turn around only give you eight months for a burner, it's goin down
Why they sellin' niggaz CD's for under a dime
If it's all love daddy why you come wit your nine
Why my niggaz ain't get that cake
Why is a brother up North better than Jordan
That ain't get that break
Why you ain't stackin' instead of tryin' to be fly
Why is rattin' at an all time high
Why are you even alive
Why they kill Tupac n' Chris
Why at the bar you ain't take straight shots instead of poppin Crist'
Why them bullets have to hit that door
Why did Kobe have to hit that raw
Why he kiss that whore
Why
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikonani
Well, Clopin's a Canadian, too, so I suspect the only nerve Nikonani hit was the ol' pee sea Yank hatred button (and I stand with Clopin on that). How much better not to look down one's nose at others (IMHO).Quote:
Originally Posted by mortalterror
Burns' lyric poetry had music to which it could be sung. Lyric poetry itself was originally sung to (or accompanied by) the lyre--which is why Aristotle called the poetic category lyric. So Nikonani is overlooking Pindar, Sappho, and other renowned ancient lyricists (however fragmented their work) such as Alcman, Alcaeus, Anacreon, Stesichorus, Ibycus, Simonides, and Bacchylides. Apparently there is more to lyric literature than Leonard Cohen. ;-)Quote:
Originally Posted by JCamilo
Pfffft, who else do you need?Quote:
Originally Posted by Pompey Bum
Heh heh. Joni Mitchell just called and said you two are quits.Quote:
Originally Posted by Clopin
Well, I do not think he is that ingenuous to overlook them. All literatura was oral at that time - It wasnt just lyrical poetry that could be sung. Heck, Rhyme of Ancient Mariner was sung by Iron Maiden and it is not lyrical. I think overall his point was that people listening to music are not reading poetry, no more than someone watching a movie adaptation of Shakespeare is really reading Shakespeare, so we cannot "save" poetry by claiming people read poetry all the time because there is lyric in the MTV. It would be if the favored method of consume of pop music was reading the lyrics.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pompey Bum
My friend is a big Iron Maiden fan. He likes their song The Rime of the Ancient Mariner. I told him it's based on my favorite poem. He wouldn't read it.Quote:
Originally Posted by JCamilo
Don't make me get ugly. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xG2lTB-UVvsQuote:
Originally Posted by JCamilo
This gets into the endless discussion I have with Jonathan about whether Shakespeare's plays are best read or watched. He likes seeing them performed to get the full dramatic effect and (as he says) because that's how they were intended to be experienced. But I prefer reading them so the raw experience of the poetry is not filtered through an actor's interpretation and a director's vision (not that seeing them isn't fun). To apply that to lyric poetry, maybe I'm on Nikonani's side (if you are right about his argument--I got the feeling his understanding of lyric was too narrow). On the other hand, it doesn't really matter what Nikonani and I prefer. Popular music is lyric poetry whether we like it or not. So are commercial jingles. O tempora, o mores! Yeah, yeah. But poetry does what it wants whether we (educated elites) like it or not. If you don't dig it, write something better.Quote:
Originally Posted by JCamilo
Yeah, I do not think Iron Maiden can be praised for improving the number of Coleridge's fans.Quote:
Originally Posted by mortalterror
Well, it does not necessarily take to any point about reading or watching plays. Both are different experiences, as they should be. However, you are just getting confusing. Why saying "popular music", if the word popular can only cause confusion? What is popular music? Rock and Roll? Samba? Bolero? And what is not popular music? Opera? And lyric poetry? Poetry is confusing word that can mean a lot of things. But listening to music is not the same as reading poems. There is no mistake here. You may spend your day listening to Beyonce vs. Shakira and sing out loud their hippness, but you are not reading more poems. Even if you watch Dead Poets Society a hundred times, you haven't read Walt Whitman a hundred times.Quote:
This gets into the endless discussion I have with Jonathan about whether Shakespeare's plays are best read or watched. He likes seeing them performed to get the full dramatic effect and (as he says) because that's how they were intended to be experienced. But I prefer reading them so the raw experience of the poetry is not filtered through an actor's interpretation and a director's vision (not that seeing them isn't fun). To apply that to lyric poetry, maybe I'm on Nikonani's side (if you are right about his argument--I got the feeling his understanding of lyric was too narrow). On the other hand, it doesn't really matter what Nikonani and I prefer. Popular music is lyric poetry whether we like it or not. So are commercial jingles. O tempora, o mores! Yeah, yeah. But poetry does what it wants whether we (educated elites) like it or not. If you don't dig it, write something better.
Oh, but it is oral expression, so close to the text. Yes, but just like the plays experiences, Oral experiences are different from Reading experience. Listening works differently. The forms of poems created in a oral context are not the same created in modern literary societies when the poem would be printed and rarely exposed to public audience. If our poems start to be more oral and often only combined with music, the product will different.
Look, you're the one who mentioned MTV. I've never seen MTV, not even once. I said popular music to simplify what you yourself were talking about. Since we both understand what you meant, let's not waste time on a side discussion about what constitutes popular music. Lyric poetry is relatively short (compared to epic and dramatic anyway) and typically personal verse, originally performed to music. That covers most of the commercial releases that (I understand) get played on MTV. Again, it doesn't matter if we think it's good poetry. It's still lyric. I understand your point about listening vs. reading, but I don't have a problem with people experiencing lyric poetry as they choose. Of course some poetry should be read, too, especially in a school setting.Quote:
Originally Posted by JCamilo
I don't know who Shakira is. I know who Beyoncé is, or at least I know what she looks like (I call her Bouncé because of her large and apparently consumer-oriented boobs), but I have never heard any of her songs, so I can't offer an opinion about them. I assume they're terrible, but that doesn't mean they do not count as lyric poetry. Again, we educated smarty-pantses have no monopoly on poetry.Quote:
Originally Posted by JCamilo
I've never seen Dead Poets Society, so I don't really know what you mean.Quote:
Originally Posted by JCamilo
Are you under the impression that I advocate listening to, um, MTV, rather than reading poetry? I think you have got the wrong impression, although I don't know how. My point from the beginning has been that we don't get to choose what poetry is or does. We don't have to like Bouncé for her to be a lyric poet (assuming she writes her own lyrics--I have no idea). As for the future age of illiteracy that this spurt in electronic technology seems to be heralding (if anxiety about that is what underlies your misunderstanding), believe me, you are preaching to the choir.Quote:
Originally Posted by JCamilo
But that is the point. I never mention MTV as popular music. Just as a place where pop music (pop music is more specific than popular music) is played. I was very specific. Anyways.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pompey Bum
Again, when you use the broad definition of poetry, there is no point arguing if people are reading more or less poetry, because we will find poetry everywhere, in movies, in a football game, in the sunset or in a beautiful woman. The question only makes sense if it is about the specific writen forms we classify as poetry (we cannot even include Joyce's Finnegans Wake as it is prose). We are talking about poems, so the lyrics of a song, unless printed for reading - like Bob Dylan's books - does not count here.Quote:
Since we both understand what you meant, let's not waste time on a side discussion about what constitutes popular music. Lyric poetry is relatively short (compared to epic and dramatic anyway) and typically personal verse, originally performed to music. That covers most of the commercial releases that (I understand) get played on MTV. Again, it doesn't matter if we think it's good poetry. It's still lyric. I understand your point about listening vs. reading, but I don't have a problem with people experiencing lyric poetry as they choose. Of course some poetry should be read, too, especially in a school setting.
Well, it is not about monopoly. Listening music is not reading poetry. Simple as that. It is another medium and another artistic representation.Quote:
I don't know who Shakira is. I know who Beyoncé is, or at least I know what she looks like (I call her Bouncé because of her large and apparently consumer-oriented boobs), but I have never heard any of her songs, so I can't offer an opinion about them. I assume they're terrible, but that doesn't mean they do not count as lyric poetry. Again, we educated smarty-pantses have no monopoly on poetry.
It is a movie, they recite Walt Whitman's elegy to Lincoln in the movie.Quote:
I've never seen Dead Poets Society, so I don't really know what you mean.
Actually, words have meaning. But I have no idea how you cannot understand the difference between artistic genre and experiences after you talked about the differences beween watching a Shakespeare's play and reading the play. In the first case, despite the experience with shakespeare, you are not reading anything. At the end of the day the statistic will say your friend read no book, you read 1. If I listen to Bob Dylan, i will have read no poem. The experience may be a poetic experience, but will be no reading.Quote:
Are you under the impression that I advocate listening to, um, MTV, rather than reading poetry? I think you have got the wrong impression, although I don't know how. My point from the beginning has been that we don't get to choose what poetry is or does. We don't have to like Bouncé for her to be a lyric poet (assuming she writes her own lyrics--I have no idea). As for the future age of illiteracy that this spurt in electronic technology seems to be heralding (if anxiety about that is what underlies your misunderstanding), believe me, you are preaching to the choir.
My area has a great local scene for live readings, and small conventions. Tis where I go.
Shakira is a hugely popular Latin musician with a following mostly in South America. Check out her song "Waka Waka" the official 2010 FIFA cup song. It has over 900 million views on youtube. Some of her other hits were "Can't Remember to Forget You" with Rihanna and "Hips Don't Lie" with Wyclef Jean. Sheesh, I thought I was out of touch with young people and popular culture.
I'm using the Aristotelian distinction of lyric poetry as opposed to epic and dramatic poetry. That is hardly a catch all for life experience (though granted, a pretty girl is like a melody).Quote:
Originally Posted by JCamilo
Bad lyric poetry and good lyric poetry are both lyric poetry. It's not a categorical difference. And as far as the written word goes, the lyrics to the songs on Revolver (which were not written on the back of the album) were no less lyric poetry than those on Sergeant Pepper's Lonely Heart's Club Band (which were).Quote:
Originally Posted by JCamilo
Exactly.Quote:
Originally Posted by JCamilo
Thanks just the same. It's nice that a cup got its own song, though. And an official song, too! I used to have a cup like that. It played Twinkle Twinkle Little Star when I tipped it back to drink. It didn't last long, though. Beauty never does.Quote:
Originally Posted by mortalterror
Gee, she does sound popular. I'll bet Bouncé gets viewed a lot, too. Popular girls often do.Quote:
Originally Posted by mortalterror
Somehow I manage.Quote:
Originally Posted by mortalterror
There's nothing more fun than lighting a fuse and speed-walking away. Thread burned quick.
You can use the light your hand to play with shadows on the wall. There, a bunny!
Oh, on the contrary, it was a very interesting conversation. Thanks, Nikonani. :)
Have you ever put a brick through a big plate-glass window, Ralph? It makes a wonderful goddamn noise, and the people inside run around like rats in a firestorm. It's fun, Ralph, and a bargain at any price. - Hunter S. Thompson, Generation of Swine: The Brutal Odyssey of an Outlaw JournalistQuote:
Originally Posted by Nikonani
Laure-Anne Bosselaar is a contemporary American poet. Although, shes also an immigrant.
I really appreciate all the replies here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by YesNo
How dare you!!!
J
I suppose I dare to say I don't like Plath or Neruda because I don't like them. Should I be worried about some academic canon police paying me a visit?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack of Hearts
Consider this:
http://www.online-literature.com/for...mor&highlight=
J
I don't like Sylvia Plath either, she is at best mediocre.
Might have to agree about Sylvia Plath. But Neruda??? *clears throat*...
How dare you!?!?
(Maybe a little biased).
J
Katie Tempest in England has won a large (young) audience at the moment, and a large amount of poetry is performed rather than published at the moment following the resurgence of Slam Poetry in the last 15 years. Poetry magazines are still going - in the UK, Rialto and Poetry Review are still printing poems worth reading. The problem is finding collections that sustain themselves. Pamphlets have been in for the moment, and the problem is that a lot of the first collections contain extracts from the pamphlets, which browns off the purchaser who end up with duplicates.
I am still going to tout Troy Jollimore.