Where have all the poets gone?

[Clopin]

. Apparently there is more to lyric literature than Leonard Cohen. ;-)

Pfffft, who else do you need?

[Pompey Bum]

Pfffft, who else do you need?

Heh heh. Joni Mitchell just called and said you two are quits.

[JCamilo]

Burns' lyric poetry had music to which it could be sung. Lyric poetry itself was originally sung to (or accompanied by) the lyre--which is why Aristotle called the poetic category lyric. So Nikonani is overlooking Pindar, Sappho, and other renowned ancient lyricists (however fragmented their work) such as Alcman, Alcaeus, Anacreon, Stesichorus, Ibycus, Simonides, and Bacchylides. Apparently there is more to lyric literature than Leonard Cohen. ;-)

Well, I do not think he is that ingenuous to overlook them. All literatura was oral at that time - It wasnt just lyrical poetry that could be sung. Heck, Rhyme of Ancient Mariner was sung by Iron Maiden and it is not lyrical. I think overall his point was that people listening to music are not reading poetry, no more than someone watching a movie adaptation of Shakespeare is really reading Shakespeare, so we cannot "save" poetry by claiming people read poetry all the time because there is lyric in the MTV. It would be if the favored method of consume of pop music was reading the lyrics.

[mortalterror]

Well, I do not think he is that ingenuous to overlook them. All literatura was oral at that time - It wasnt just lyrical poetry that could be sung. Heck, Rhyme of Ancient Mariner was sung by Iron Maiden and it is not lyrical. I think overall his point was that people listening to music are not reading poetry, no more than someone watching a movie adaptation of Shakespeare is really reading Shakespeare, so we cannot "save" poetry by claiming people read poetry all the time because there is lyric in the MTV. It would be if the favored method of consume of pop music was reading the lyrics.

My friend is a big Iron Maiden fan. He likes their song The Rime of the Ancient Mariner. I told him it's based on my favorite poem. He wouldn't read it.

[Pompey Bum]

Heck, Rhyme Ancient Mariner was sung by Iron Maiden and it is not lyrical.

Don't make me get ugly. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xG2lTB-UVvs

I think overall his point was that people listening to music are not reading poetry, no more than someone watching a movie adaptation of Shakespeare is really reading Shakespeare, so we cannot "save" poetry by claiming people read poetry all the time because there is lyric in the MTV. It would be if the favored method of consume of pop music was reading the lyrics.

This gets into the endless discussion I have with Jonathan about whether Shakespeare's plays are best read or watched. He likes seeing them performed to get the full dramatic effect and (as he says) because that's how they were intended to be experienced. But I prefer reading them so the raw experience of the poetry is not filtered through an actor's interpretation and a director's vision (not that seeing them isn't fun). To apply that to lyric poetry, maybe I'm on Nikonani's side (if you are right about his argument--I got the feeling his understanding of lyric was too narrow). On the other hand, it doesn't really matter what Nikonani and I prefer. Popular music is lyric poetry whether we like it or not. So are commercial jingles. O tempora, o mores! Yeah, yeah. But poetry does what it wants whether we (educated elites) like it or not. If you don't dig it, write something better.

[JCamilo]

My friend is a big Iron Maiden fan. He likes their song The Rime of the Ancient Mariner. I told him it's based on my favorite poem. He wouldn't read it.

Yeah, I do not think Iron Maiden can be praised for improving the number of Coleridge's fans.

This gets into the endless discussion I have with Jonathan about whether Shakespeare's plays are best read or watched. He likes seeing them performed to get the full dramatic effect and (as he says) because that's how they were intended to be experienced. But I prefer reading them so the raw experience of the poetry is not filtered through an actor's interpretation and a director's vision (not that seeing them isn't fun). To apply that to lyric poetry, maybe I'm on Nikonani's side (if you are right about his argument--I got the feeling his understanding of lyric was too narrow). On the other hand, it doesn't really matter what Nikonani and I prefer. Popular music is lyric poetry whether we like it or not. So are commercial jingles. O tempora, o mores! Yeah, yeah. But poetry does what it wants whether we (educated elites) like it or not. If you don't dig it, write something better.

Well, it does not necessarily take to any point about reading or watching plays. Both are different experiences, as they should be. However, you are just getting confusing. Why saying "popular music", if the word popular can only cause confusion? What is popular music? Rock and Roll? Samba? Bolero? And what is not popular music? Opera? And lyric poetry? Poetry is confusing word that can mean a lot of things. But listening to music is not the same as reading poems. There is no mistake here. You may spend your day listening to Beyonce vs. Shakira and sing out loud their hippness, but you are not reading more poems. Even if you watch Dead Poets Society a hundred times, you haven't read Walt Whitman a hundred times.

Oh, but it is oral expression, so close to the text. Yes, but just like the plays experiences, Oral experiences are different from Reading experience. Listening works differently. The forms of poems created in a oral context are not the same created in modern literary societies when the poem would be printed and rarely exposed to public audience. If our poems start to be more oral and often only combined with music, the product will different.

[Pompey Bum]

However, you are just getting confusing. Why saying "popular music", if the word popular can only cause confusion?

Look, you're the one who mentioned MTV. I've never seen MTV, not even once. I said popular music to simplify what you yourself were talking about. Since we both understand what you meant, let's not waste time on a side discussion about what constitutes popular music. Lyric poetry is relatively short (compared to epic and dramatic anyway) and typically personal verse, originally performed to music. That covers most of the commercial releases that (I understand) get played on MTV. Again, it doesn't matter if we think it's good poetry. It's still lyric. I understand your point about listening vs. reading, but I don't have a problem with people experiencing lyric poetry as they choose. Of course some poetry should be read, too, especially in a school setting.

You may spend your day listening to Beyonce vs. Shakira and sing out loud their hippness, but you are not reading more poems. Even if you watch Dead Poets Society a hundred times, you haven't read Walt Whitman a hundred times.

I don't know who Shakira is. I know who Beyoncé is, or at least I know what she looks like (I call her Bouncé because of her large and apparently consumer-oriented boobs), but I have never heard any of her songs, so I can't offer an opinion about them. I assume they're terrible, but that doesn't mean they do not count as lyric poetry. Again, we educated smarty-pantses have no monopoly on poetry.

Even if you watch Dead Poets Society a hundred times, you haven't read Walt Whitman a hundred times.

I've never seen Dead Poets Society, so I don't really know what you mean.

Oh, but it is oral expression, so close to the text.

Are you under the impression that I advocate listening to, um, MTV, rather than reading poetry? I think you have got the wrong impression, although I don't know how. My point from the beginning has been that we don't get to choose what poetry is or does. We don't have to like Bouncé for her to be a lyric poet (assuming she writes her own lyrics--I have no idea). As for the future age of illiteracy that this spurt in electronic technology seems to be heralding (if anxiety about that is what underlies your misunderstanding), believe me, you are preaching to the choir.

[JCamilo]

Look, you're the one who mentioned MTV. I've never seen MTV, not even once. I said popular music to simplify what you yourself were talking about.

But that is the point. I never mention MTV as popular music. Just as a place where pop music (pop music is more specific than popular music) is played. I was very specific. Anyways.

Since we both understand what you meant, let's not waste time on a side discussion about what constitutes popular music. Lyric poetry is relatively short (compared to epic and dramatic anyway) and typically personal verse, originally performed to music. That covers most of the commercial releases that (I understand) get played on MTV. Again, it doesn't matter if we think it's good poetry. It's still lyric. I understand your point about listening vs. reading, but I don't have a problem with people experiencing lyric poetry as they choose. Of course some poetry should be read, too, especially in a school setting.

Again, when you use the broad definition of poetry, there is no point arguing if people are reading more or less poetry, because we will find poetry everywhere, in movies, in a football game, in the sunset or in a beautiful woman. The question only makes sense if it is about the specific writen forms we classify as poetry (we cannot even include Joyce's Finnegans Wake as it is prose). We are talking about poems, so the lyrics of a song, unless printed for reading - like Bob Dylan's books - does not count here.

I don't know who Shakira is. I know who Beyoncé is, or at least I know what she looks like (I call her Bouncé because of her large and apparently consumer-oriented boobs), but I have never heard any of her songs, so I can't offer an opinion about them. I assume they're terrible, but that doesn't mean they do not count as lyric poetry. Again, we educated smarty-pantses have no monopoly on poetry.

Well, it is not about monopoly. Listening music is not reading poetry. Simple as that. It is another medium and another artistic representation.

I've never seen Dead Poets Society, so I don't really know what you mean.

It is a movie, they recite Walt Whitman's elegy to Lincoln in the movie.

Are you under the impression that I advocate listening to, um, MTV, rather than reading poetry? I think you have got the wrong impression, although I don't know how. My point from the beginning has been that we don't get to choose what poetry is or does. We don't have to like Bouncé for her to be a lyric poet (assuming she writes her own lyrics--I have no idea). As for the future age of illiteracy that this spurt in electronic technology seems to be heralding (if anxiety about that is what underlies your misunderstanding), believe me, you are preaching to the choir.

Actually, words have meaning. But I have no idea how you cannot understand the difference between artistic genre and experiences after you talked about the differences beween watching a Shakespeare's play and reading the play. In the first case, despite the experience with shakespeare, you are not reading anything. At the end of the day the statistic will say your friend read no book, you read 1. If I listen to Bob Dylan, i will have read no poem. The experience may be a poetic experience, but will be no reading.

[Methinks]

My area has a great local scene for live readings, and small conventions. Tis where I go.

[mortalterror]

Shakira is a hugely popular Latin musician with a following mostly in South America. Check out her song "Waka Waka" the official 2010 FIFA cup song. It has over 900 million views on youtube. Some of her other hits were "Can't Remember to Forget You" with Rihanna and "Hips Don't Lie" with Wyclef Jean. Sheesh, I thought I was out of touch with young people and popular culture.

[Pompey Bum]

Again, when you use the broad definition of poetry, there is no point arguing if people are reading more or less poetry, because we will find poetry everywhere, in movies, in a football game, in the sunset or in a beautiful woman.

I'm using the Aristotelian distinction of lyric poetry as opposed to epic and dramatic poetry. That is hardly a catch all for life experience (though granted, a pretty girl is like a melody).

Listening music is not reading poetry. Simple as that. It is another medium and another artistic representation.

Bad lyric poetry and good lyric poetry are both lyric poetry. It's not a categorical difference. And as far as the written word goes, the lyrics to the songs on Revolver (which were not written on the back of the album) were no less lyric poetry than those on Sergeant Pepper's Lonely Heart's Club Band (which were).

The experience may be a poetic experience, but will be no reading.

Exactly.

[Pompey Bum]

Shakira is a hugely popular Latin musician with a following mostly in South America. Check out her song "Waka Waka" the official 2010 FIFA cup song.

Thanks just the same. It's nice that a cup got its own song, though. And an official song, too! I used to have a cup like that. It played Twinkle Twinkle Little Star when I tipped it back to drink. It didn't last long, though. Beauty never does.

It has over 900 million views on youtube.

Gee, she does sound popular. I'll bet Bouncé gets viewed a lot, too. Popular girls often do.

Sheesh, I thought I was out of touch with young people and popular culture.

Somehow I manage.

[Nikonani]

There's nothing more fun than lighting a fuse and speed-walking away. Thread burned quick.

[JCamilo]

You can use the light your hand to play with shadows on the wall. There, a bunny!

[Pompey Bum]

Oh, on the contrary, it was a very interesting conversation. Thanks, Nikonani.