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This is basically a continuation of the very popular thread: Benefits of Chastity and Celibacy. It has been removed from the Religious thread so that we may consider all of the mental, physical, and spiritual advantages and disadvantages of Celibacy in a mature and accepting fashion.
What is your opinion? Is a celibate lifestyle practical? Does it improve athletic performance? Does it make one more spiritual, closer to nature?
Celibacy is not only a matter of physicality it is a state of mind. Even if you restrain your physical sexual activities, you may still dream of some sensual activities. Then how can you be clean of it?
If we're going to start - or continue - this discussion, can we at least lay down the ground rule that no one makes reference to celibacy in terms of 'purity', 'cleanliness', or any other 'makes your whites whiter' phrase, and that sex is not referred to in terms of 'impurity', 'baseness', or any similar words that have connotations of dirtiness.
I mean, if we start with that implicit prejudice, the conversation's a tad skewed from the kickoff, isn't it?
If it does, that seems to me to be reason enough to reject it.Quote:
Originally Posted by soundofmusic
An interesting thought, Blaze. I think that those who hope to gain some mental and physical advantages from celibacy are of the impression that they do this by first working on the outside man. They do this in the hope that eventually, the sub-conscious will follow.Quote:
Originally Posted by blazeofglory
Is this possible at the peak of ones health and sexuality?
Do you mean, nocturnal emissions which is just a physiological release of semen; or are you talking about actual dreams? Personally I only have dreamed of sexual activity when my imagination was stimulated by beauty, guilt or fear; then again, I am a woman and was married most of my adult life.
The original forum had been very popular and a number of excellent side conversations had emerged: alternative lifestyles, health issues concerning sexual activity, the "norms" of sexual behavior and animal behavior, etc. Unfortuantely, because the topic began in a religious forum; we constantly risked offending some of our peers. I hope that with this new thread, because it is on a general chat thread, we can examine several of these side issues. Those who wish to examine chastity from a religious point of view only, may choose to remain on the original thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkBastable
:nod: Yes, well....I'm speechless...:redface:Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkBastable
In fact we are too much obsessed with religious points of view when it comes to celibacy but what I think is it is a moral and social issue too and why should not we view it from other points than just the religious one.Quote:
Originally Posted by soundofmusic
Why? I'm simply saying that I don't want to get any closer to nature, and I don't think that it's always a good thing to be more spiritual.Quote:
Originally Posted by soundofmusic
If you told me that celibacy would get me closer to downtown, and that it would make me more intellectual, I might give it some thought.
Nah it's the other way around. Sex is nature. The idea of celibacy is to ignore nature for some sort of ethical reason. Hogwash if you ask me.Quote:
Originally Posted by soundofmusic
What about sexual abuse like rape and molestation?
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Originally Posted by Mathor
Rape and molestation are not nature. The inference then is that ignoring or suppressing one's sexual tendencies is to create more rape and molestation.Quote:
Originally Posted by blazeofglory
As was mentioned earlier in another post, the rate of sex crimes has been decreasing since the increase in availability of internet pornography, some of which caters to the idea of pedophilia and molestation. I won't go off on a tangent about the porn industry, but if people harbouring these thoughts can, for lack of a better term, "take care" of this on their own instead of suppressing it to the point where they actually abuse someone, that's fine by me.
Also, for anyone who is arguing for the benefits of chastity and celibacy, how are masturbation and/or oral sex applied to that situation?
The point is we humans make misuse of it and there is balance in nature. Man is at times oversexed and unseasonably and inappropriately. Our society is not in balance, and man makes overuse of it. We know man overbalance nature and so is sex and this backs up the fact that sexual behaviors must be restrained to some extent
So you're saying that rape and molestation are misuses of sex. I agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by blazeofglory
You're saying that those who wish to commit such acts should refrain from doing so. I also agree with that. Those are extreme cases and those people have far bigger problems than an over-active sex drive. They need to be restrained in ways other than just refraining from sex- they need to be removed from society altogether. I don't really see that case as being particularly relevant to the issue at hand: how does celibacy benefit the average person?
If something is good for my health, makes me happy, and has the same benefits for another, why shouldn't I do it? No one is harmed, and those involved are benefitted.
What does it mean to be "oversexed"? What does it mean to "overbalance nature"? And how does cutting something out altogether restore any sense of balance, if balance is your argument?
In fact all I mean to say is that man violates natural laws; we are increasingly engaged in disrupting natural order and regulation. It is evident from the overexploitation of resources out of our greed. We are creating threats to ecology and that ultimately destroy natural habitats. That man is a greedy and amoral creature is always true. Restraint or moderation is necessary in his case. Sex is one of the things man makes misuse of and that is the reason so many innocents fall victims to misuse or sexual harassment. Man must be taught to use it properly thru education and moral persuasion. Almost all religions have recommended moral codes when it comes to dealing with the issues of sex. I do not stress celibacy totally but what I meant to balance it is educate people about it and so that they would not misuse it and it creates a good amount of understanding.
In Hinduism there are four ways of life: first Brahmacharya, i.e., celibacy up to the age of towenty two or twenty five, and there are other three ways that do not bear any relevance here and I refrain from describing them. Imagine if a student indulges in sexual activities in his early twenties we know the consequence. There are values in all cultures and religions and they are not all false.
[QUOTE=MarkBastable;801621]Why? I'm simply saying that I don't want to get any closer to nature, and I don't think that it's always a good thing to be more spiritual.
If you told me that celibacy would get me closer to downtown, and that it would make me more intellectual, I might give it some thought.[/QUOTE
I saw some recent polls from the UK: there has been a campaign which gave out "morning after" pills to young people; hoping that this would decrease the surge in teenage pregancy. It claims that there was no decrease in teenage pregancy; but there was a significant increase in sexually transmitted disease.
You make an interesting point; I notice, among my peers at work, that those who seem to give little significance to sex, manage to "get closer to downtown". They don't seem to be intellectual beings, more goal oriented.
I always thought of oral sex or masturbation as a precursor to intercourse; or something to be used when one needs a really good nights sleep. It seems that some have a preference for those. Prosthetics also seem to be very common with single people as well as couples.Quote:
Originally Posted by *Classic*Charm*
I would think that one is celibate as long as they are not "with another person"; what are your thoughts?
Hmm I think it's a difficult distinction to make, because my initial thought would be that to be celibate, the line would be drawn such to make penetration the standard for what counts as sex. This, however, then includes female masturbation as something to be avoided, but male masturbation is okay. That hardly seems fair.Quote:
Originally Posted by soundofmusic
I would assume that a celibate person would refrain from oral sex and masturbation. The idea is to ignore the urges and restrict pleasure, is it not? If one can achieve the same level of satisfaction and pleasure from these, I would think that they too would be avoided.
You bring up a good point, Blaze: one that we may not be able to appreciate fully in wealthier countries. I noticed that(in a Unicef study) in Nepal, 42% of girls are given in marriage between the ages of 15 and 19; their parents do this to keep them virgins until marriage, and to assist their own financial status. In this context, I can see that the idea of constraint may improve the countrys finacial condition. Do you think this study is accurate?Quote:
Originally Posted by blazeofglory
Do you feel that the Hindu practices and teaching has been effective?
Many will agree with you:lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathor
:idea: Perhaps the athletes in Platos time were claiming to be abstinate ("not touching women or young boys" as he stated) instead of admitting erectile dysfunction and a low libido during heavy training.
Is a low libido and erectile dysfunction common with heavy training, or stress?
Yes, I suppose the idea is to concentrate on other things instead of sexual gratification; but as Blaze mentioned before, it just pops its annoying little head up in dreams...Quote:
Originally Posted by *Classic*Charm*
I have never found masturbation, with or without a lover, as emotionally gratifying as intercourse. I have also noticed that when one becomes accustomed to manual stimulation; there is some difficulty with premature ejaculation or delayed ejaculation.
What are your thoughts?
How do you come to that conclusion? Bonobo chimpanzees are well known to molest their children, and rape is hardly a rare occurrence amongst animals. When you can't compete against the other males for the female, the evolutionarily advantageous course is to sneak in and ravage the female.Quote:
Originally Posted by *Classic*Charm*
I don't think we should be determining the worth of any action through its "naturalness" or "unnaturalness."
I think we may be discussing two different concepts of Rape and Child Molestation:
Serial Rape and Serial Child Molestation: I think everyone agrees it is an aberration of human behavior.
There is also the Rape and Child molestation of children through child marriage; this is common practice in other countries. In 2006, Britain set up a unit to assist children as young as 13, who were being forced into marriage; in 2008 they received 5000 calls for assistance.
And what of animals. It is true, Now it is quite common to see hordes of ferrell males chasing one female; but was that always the case. At one time, didn't the strongest control his pack, deprive the weaker males of food and territory until they starved to death?
More and more studies are showing that decreased sexual activity yields lower testosterone levels. Having a normal amount of testosterone is beneficial to your health as you're less likely to be afflicted with cardiovascular disease, Alzheimer's, and depression. Not only does it prevent physical and mental ailments but it helps develop muscle mass and incites risky behaviour. My advice is to continue thinking dirty thoughts to keep those hormone levels normal... for the sake of your well-being.
Very fair point. I didn't consider that. I think the big difference in this situation though is the idea of sex for pleasure vs. sex for reproductive purposes. This obviously doesn't encompass your example of the molestation in chimps, but how about "rape" in animals? To do so is definitely an instinct, but I'm guessing most people don't commit rape following a reproductive instinct.Quote:
Originally Posted by OrphanPip
I agree with you. I was just trying to take Blaze's argument somewhere.Quote:
I don't think we should be determining the worth of any action through its "naturalness" or "unnaturalness."
How does that affect its inclusion/ exclusion from a celibate lifestyle?Quote:
Originally Posted by soundofmusic
:lol: Risky behavior :goof: Yes, the last time I started working out I started listening to Eminem and that song, "Before he cheats", running red lights, and always telling people the truth!:pQuote:
Originally Posted by Dirtbag
I recently read an article on world religion that, sort of , put abstinence and Celibacy on a scale. Celibacy was considered something that is avoiding all forms of sexual behavior for some greater purpose. Abstinence was either chosen or not; and therefore could be temporary, and one could choose how much he/she abstained.Quote:
Originally Posted by *Classic*Charm*
When in a relationship, I have tried to exclude sexual gratification measures with my partner that cause negative side effects like premature ejaculation or delayed ejaculation. Unfortunately, the sexual behaviors that cause difficulty are usually their favorites...And, of course, we aim to please our partner.
Since I've been a widow, I have chosen to remain celibate. I am not one for partial gratification: I eat the most fattening ice cream, butter, drink the best liquors and coffee and if I am to have sex, it will be with a man, not a vibrator or my right hand. It's been so long now, I almost forget that men are men when I'm talking to them; but I have not become at all spiritual or intellectual.:(
I see. I understand what you mean about "partial pleasures", but I still don't understand why one would choose to be celibate unless recovering from some sort of traumatic experience. I don't see any sort of health benefit, nor to I buy it as the suggested method of "maintaining balance".Quote:
Originally Posted by soundofmusic
You're very insightful, Classic Charm. Many people, myself included, take up celibacy as a way to avoid reliving trauma or tragedy. Others, may take it up as a way to avoid the secondary responsibility that seems to come with intimacy. Love comes with a hefty pricetag: a mortgage, years of child-rearing, in-laws, sickness and eventually death.Quote:
Originally Posted by *Classic*Charm*
Thank you, and I'm sorry to hear that.Quote:
Originally Posted by soundofmusic
I suppose the next question comes from a different standpoint. I agree with you that an individual may become celibate as a means of avoiding the secondary responsibility (I like that term, btw) associated with sex. I think it far more likely that people choose promiscuous sex as a means of avoiding responsibility than celibacy, but that's another topic altogether.
So what of couples who maintain a monogamous, loving relationship but who do not, or extremely rarely, have sex. For example, I know a couple who have been together for three years (which is a decent amount of time when you're my age :rolleyes:), who have has sex fewer times than you can count on one hand. It simply doesn't seem to be an important part of their relationship. That is a form of abstinence, no? I can think of no reason why two young people who are in love would not have the desire to be intimate.
I think that, by definition, 'abstinence' involves a deliberate and active resolution to avoid or refuse something. It's the complement of 'indulgence'.Quote:
Originally Posted by *Classic*Charm*
So if it's not something you particularly want to do, not doing it isn't really abstinence (though it might, almost accidentally, be celibacy).
Yes, this is semantic nit-picking. I'm all for semantics.
Thank you, Classic Charm,Quote:
Originally Posted by *Classic*Charm*
Did you know the individuals of the couple before they were together? Were they sexually active with others? Sometimes people who are very good friends become a couple because they share so many things in common, they like the companionship; but are not sexually intimate. Some people really have very little desire to have sex. I became aquainted with a couple, who claimed they were not a couple (one had HIV); but always disappeared together when I came to their home...I began to think I was the impetus for their intimacy.
It's all rather difficult, I married my best friend when I was 26 (we were friends since I was 14); at the time, it was a matter of financial need, we enjoyed each others company (we would talk on the phone sometimes for 4 hours) and our former mates had always assumed we were sexually intimate (we were not). I found that with marriage, the whole balance of the relationship went topsy-turvy. It never occured to me that someone I loved and found desirable could be such a turn-off in bed. So there it was, we loved each other dearly and were not in the least attracted to each other in the bedroom. We were jealous when one would find someone they were attracted to...He once cut the left half of 12 of my wigs because I flirted with my 18 year old lawn boy. Sometimes, we met other people and made an attempt to have a sexual relationship; but those people wanted and deserved someone who could give themselves fully...We were somehow attached, unable to move until his death.
That is a wonderful point, Mark; and very intelligently worded!Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkBastable
:p A short period of celibacy can be beneficial because when you finally have sex again you realise how crazy and utterly pointless your abstinence was - thus focusing the mind on making sure you indulge as often as is humanly possible from then on. Lack of opportunity is the only sane excuse for abstinence and probably the main reason people claim to be celibate for whatever reason. I am sure this view on celibacy only heightens the older and closer you come to death. I believe that if, by some quirk of nature, humans became more physically able and attractive the older they became, then all elderly people would be at it like rabbits all day long! ;)
Good point, Michael T. and oh, if it were only possible! I have a few friends who, in their late 50's are trying to "make up for lost time". They've suddenly become very temperamental and limp a good deal of the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael T
Is it safe to assume that this is the advice you give to your own children?Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael T
:p
It's certainly the advice I give to my parents.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scheherazade
:lol: Excellent point, Scher, our children do seem to hear everything we say and everything we don't; even though they seem to be "hearing impaired" in their teens. I've noticed, over the years, that allowing the children to witness my "achilles heel"; they have become an extremely "moral lot", though one wouldn't know it by listening to their conversation:eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by Scheherazade
:cool: I'll bet you're your parents favorite child; You'd be mine:wave:Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkBastable
Yes, my friends all tell me that increased sexual activity is great for the over 50's set; if they didn't look so arthritic, and limp all the time; I might take their advice. I can't argue because they blast their heavy metal and the beatles in my ear:smash:
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Originally Posted by Scheherazade
My greatest fear is that she will figure it out for herself! I keep showing her brochures for nunneries but her heart seems set on university ...sigh! ;)
;) Well, all the better then; nothing worse than a nun who has discovered the joys of an active sex life:eek:...except, maybe a priest who has discovered an active sex life; people follow them to Italy for a shot on the beach:nod:Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael T
What you said is truQuote:
Originally Posted by soundofmusic
Yes, it is interesting, isn't it Blaze. People hover in corners to talk about sexually active nuns and shout priests indescretions from the rooftops.Quote:
Originally Posted by blazeofglory
I'm never sure why people are so surprised when they see high-profile religious people being indiscriminate. It's difficult to keep a spiritual focus when your path is constantly littered with praise, women, and gold coins.
Quote:
Originally Posted by soundofmusic
Oh, I dunno. You get used to it.
:cool: Tell us more, Mark. Are you one of the modest few who manage to feed the frenzied flocks, stave off the worshiping women and return the gold to the poor?Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkBastable
'a shot on the beach'!:lol: Love it! Smoke of the holy love gun Batman!
Celibacy is possible only when you restrain your mind and you do it with a rope the way a rider reins in on its transport. In the Upanishads, there is a beautiful comparison. The mind is like a pair of horses dragging a chariot and the driver is the conscience and the soul is the charioteer. And if the bridle is strong you can control your horses, that is, your desires and you cannot control them always. The horses of your desires are bound to look else where and you cannot control them however much you whip them
Lovely analogy, Blaze:nod:Quote:
Originally Posted by blazeofglory
My question would be why would anyone choose celibacy? I can see it being forced upon someone, as in the illness or death of a partner, but I just can't see waking up one morning and deciding that "I'm not going to have sex for next day/week/month/year." Why would someone make that decision?