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Originally Posted by
islandclimber
Quark and DarkMuse .. I agree with you the lines are a bit confusing... Which is I think what Lawrence is going for in having her mention how the elusiveness is part of his charm...
I think I agree with this, but I do think, we can find a meaning in his words, if we look hard enough. I think this is close, islandclimber:
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I think though, that he is telling her to preserve these affairs as memories (hence the pickling process), because eventually she will turn into that pillar of salt, that she mentions above (the crystallizing out...)... or that is what I took from it... preserve these memories, because eventually you will no loger be able to have the affairs, and it will only be the memories that last...
.....I quite enjoy the biblical references too...
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Yes, I agree Quark with your last point as well.. she is sure of herself, she is just uncertain and doubtful of the servants in relation to herself.. she knows like you say that the elaborate show is just for ceremony and their private viewpoints must be different... or so she supposes..
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Overall I do not think she is that sure of herself, as she is constantly comparing herself to the secretary, and I think perhaps part of her ironic cynicism is a way of her making fun of herself, because I think in some ways she feels she fails compared to the secretory who can offer her husband something she cannot.
I think perhaps this is way she so often refers to the woman as being "common" it is a way to put the secretary down to try and reassure herself.
Here is where, I actually agree with both of you, and I don't see that you are in opposition against each other on these points, about the wife's surety and confidence. I feel the wife is sure of herself in some situations, true...but then in others, she alows her vulnerable side to come through. I think the first hint of this is, the annoying grain of irritation in her eye. This 'forshadows' what will follow, when she returns home. Afterall, she is only human and she does have flaws and weaknesses, as we all do. Ok, so to the servants she might appear to be very much her own lady and lord her confidence over them and they respond to it accordingly, she is the lady of the estate! But then then in a conversation with her husband, she is somewhat miffed as to just what he means, calling him enigmatic. When the element, being the third party, enters the picture this throws the wife way off kilter; I refer to the secretary (and even her family) First off, it is representative as a sort of triangle, even though the secetary is not sleeping with her husband, or anything of the nature; however there does exist a sort of 'intimacy' between them, that the wife cannot penetrate. Think of how the secretary writes down every word he says, and how this gives the wife the impression that the girl understands his deeper side, far better than the wife could ever begin to...that 'enigmatic' side. I think in this way, the wife does begin to feel inferior, to the secretary. She also feels inferior, in the fact, that the secretary can provide to her husband wtih undivided attention/focus, while the wife knows perfectly well, she is totally incapable of such devotion. 'Devotion' here is a big factor and the wife is not devoted to her husband. She moves and acts on equal terms with him, almost as a sparring partner and not a love partner. Their wills are often matched and this is a big theme very often Lawrence stories - the theme of the 'will' of one person, against the other. By being caddy and critical, towards the secretary, and her devotion to the husband, the wife is indirectly attacking her husband, not the secretary. The secretary's existence is quite insignificant except, to say she is also a woman and so the wills are matched and their is this element of jealous that probably would not exist if the secretary were a male. But the true foe of the wife, at this point, is the husband and she is fighting him, the only way she knows how, and that is indirectly, yet through a means where it will undermine his sensitivities. The secretary is a way to exert her will against him.
I want to review the lines about the crystalising out. I was miffed at first and curious about those lines, too and I wanted to work out exactly what they do mean or meant to Lawrence when he wrote them. It is highly unlikely they mean nothing and are just inserted into the story to be totally enigmatic.
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However, they were awfully kind. He was the soul of generosity, and held her in real tender esteem, no matter how many gallant affairs she had. Her gallant affairs were part of her modern necessity.....
I don't know about all of you but here I began to question their marriage and realtionship. Ok, so what was meant by then being awfully kind and he the soul of generosity and tender esteem? I didn't know if this was true or just a facade of how they appeared to be in their relationship. It does seem one is true - that he was generous with her. I felt that when it came to her gallant affairs, Lawrence was saying that sort of rolling his eyes or dubiously or sarcasically. The next line seemed to rub it in even more so "Her gallant affairs were part of her modern necessity". It sounds more like the husband quoting what the wife would have said. I can even picture, Lawrence saying this about his wife, Frieda, and actually underneath it all not liking it at all but putting up with it...what else could he do? Frieda did her own thing always. Ok, let's go on.....
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"After all, I've got to live. I can't turn into a pillar of salt in five minutes just because you and I can't live together! It takes years for a woman like me to turn into a pillar of salt. At least I hope so!"
This also sounds so much, like something Lawrence's own wife would say, sometime or other, in their marriage. The couple matched wills and wit often, much like this couple expressing themselves as these phrases are written. No doubt Frieda found Lawrence quite enigmatic, many times over, just as the wife does.
So above, in the quote, the wife is thinking she is going to be able to carry on in her current lifestyle for years, without giving out, and turning into 'a pillar of salt' - she brings up the idea, to begin with. That should tell you something.
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"Quite!" he replied. "Quite! By all means put them in pickle, make pickled cucumbers of them, before you crystallise out. That's my advice."
Now, he returns that with a retort of his own and a clever one, one must admit. He picks right up on the idea and expands the bible symbolism. Ok, if one does put salt into water to make brine(pickle) you can pickle or preserve something before it crystallises.
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He was like that: so awfully clever and enigmatic. She could more or less fathom the idea of the pickled cucumbers, but the 'crystallising out'--what did that signify?
Well, in the Bible, Lot's wife did look back after being forwarned and she turned to the pillar of salt. She looked back at the sinful city, right? I am not totally up on this story of late. I forget the details. So isn't turning into a pillar of salt the same as 'crystalizing out'? After that Lot's wife was quite 'done for'. So maybe the husband is warning her to not look back at her sins, or this will eventually happen to her. She will be extinquished.
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And did he mean to suggest that he himself had been well pickled and that further immersion was for him unnecessary, would spoil his flavour? Was that what he meant? And herself, was she the brine and the vale of tears?
So now, the wife seems to be turning that idea around, in her own mind to mean her husband will be the one who is crystalized in the end or spoiled totally for her excesses and alternate lifestyle and for her his flavour would then be spoiled? Is that what she is saying or interpreting her husband as meaning? She seems to be redirecting the blame towards herself and her actions, by saying she might be 'the brine and the vale of tears' that brings about that result in her husband, not in herself. Is she thinking her actions will end up causing his demise? This last part is confusing to me and I am not sure what to make of it entirely. Any ideas, anyone?
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You never knew how catty a man was being, when he was really clever and enigmatic, withal a bit whimsical. He was adorably whimsical, with a twist of his flexible, vain mouth, that had a long upper lip, so fraught with vanity! But then a handsome, clear-cut, histrionic young man like that, how could he help being vain? The women made him so.
These all seem to be characteristics that had attracted her and still apparently do. Interesting. This man is very complex and fascinating to her; quite obvious from this paragraph. The last line, and then the first, in the following paragraph seem to indicate to me a 'forshadowing' of the theme of the jealousy the wife seems to exhibit towards the secretary. The jealousy is not really for the secretary, who is actually no one to anyone, but of the man and his attention to the secretary. In my opinion the true battlefield exists only between the husband and the wife and the 'will' of each set against each other.
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Ah, the women! How nice men would be if there were no other women!
I know I have not been here lately, but I have been busy. I hope what I said, makes some sort of sense, and adds to what has already been posted. Sorry about not posting yesterday. It got too late.
