Russian literature

The Russian culture and mentality is something special and unique!! Lately I had the occasion to meet it and I am really fascinating!

The Russian Renaissance was awe-inspiring and the writers it birthed were insuperable in their creative works. Chekov for instance has always been a matchless storyteller. Dostoevsky remained an unparalleled master on novels. Tolstoy was an epical personality. Even no Americans and Europeans could equal them. They were really deep and profound in their characterization and in their delineation of human natures

blazes... you offer nothing new... just personal opinion confused with fact. Checkoff is a matchless story-teller? Really? One might suggest any number who equal or arguably surpass him (Maupassant, Kafka, J.L. Borges, Thomas hardy, Joseph Conrad, E.T.A. Hoffmann, Ambrose Bierce, Poe, Hemingway, Dickens, Hawthorne, Boccaccio, the author/s of the 1001 Arabian Knights...). Dostoevsky is the greatest novelist? Truly? Many at LitNet might agree with you, but as JBI has pointed out many young or inexperienced readers come across Dostoevsky and Nietzsche an identify with their existentialism and confuse their admiration with aesthetic merit. This is not to suggest Dostoevsky is not a great novelist... but so was Cervantes, Victor Hugo, Flaubert, Lawrence Sterne, Dickens, Murasaki Shikibu Thomas Hardy, Zola, Balzac, Joseph Conrad, James Joyce, William Faulkner, and Gabriel Garcia Marquez, etc... Indeed, one might quite easily make an argument that Tolstoy was the greatest novelist. As for Tolstoy as the author of epic personality... one might easily argue that Shakespeare, Cervantes, Lawrence Sterne, Dickens, and even Twain created characters that are just as "epic" in development... characters that virtually "live" beyond the confines of the text in which they were created.

Seriously, your adulation of the Russians strikes me as just one more aspect of your continual diatribe to the effect of "They just don't write like they used to."

Besides, have you even read any of the asian traditions? I hear theres a wealth of writers that rival the masters of the west.

Name a few Asian writers. Actually they seem underepresented on this forum, maybe there are less translations.

I love a lot of Russian works. "The Brothers Karamazov" and "Anna Karinina" are counted amongst my favorites.

Even though I enjoy the works of Dostoyevsky, Tolstoy, Pushkin and Helena Roerich, I always feel that I'm missing something. I follow the stories and I "get them", don't get me wrong. But it always feels that things get left out when the works are translated from their original language (not just Russian to English but any languages). The depth and feel of them changes.

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Originally Posted by testwilliams

This question has been killing me for hours now. Does anyone know what short story Chekhov wrote the line "and suddenly everything became clear to him" in? I've searched what seems like every quotations and other similar webpage that shows up when I search for it, but still can't find it. All I know is that apparently it's from one of Chekhov's short stories and that Raymond Carver really liked the quote, so much that he pinned it to the wall above his writing desk.

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I recall it as well. Maybe 'The Kiss'?

Writing indeed tarnishes the image of a book. It distorts its meaning, disparages its beauty and degrades its quality.

Just see even in their translational form Russian literature is far superior to American and British novels and stories.

I read Mark Twain, Charles Dickens and the like but Dostoevsky, Chekhov, Tolstoy are far better and their fictions are of higher quality and philosophically are far ahead.

I think Blazeofglory is a romanticist.

I read Mark Twain, Charles Dickens and the like but Dostoevsky, Chekhov, Tolstoy are far better and their fictions are of higher quality and philosophically are far ahead.

Romantic? There are probably other words for one who makes such blanket moronic statements. What Blazes claim comes down to is: "Based upon my reading experience, I like Russian literature the best." There is no attempt at proving how Russian stories are "far superior" to German, French, American, British or Italian writers. There is no attempt to back up the claims that Russian fiction is "far better and of a higher quality" than all the other national literature. Really? And what Russian writer surpasses Shakespeare or Dante or Homer or Firdowsi? And there is no attempt to explain just how Russian fiction is philosophically superior? Again... superior to what? prove to us where Russian literature is so profound in comparison to all other national literature, otherwise all you are doing is spouting hot air.

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Originally Posted by stlukesguild

I read Mark Twain, Charles Dickens and the like but Dostoevsky, Chekhov, Tolstoy are far better and their fictions are of higher quality and philosophically are far ahead.

Romantic? There are probably other words for one who makes such blanket moronic statements. What Blazes claim comes down to is: "Based upon my reading experience, I like Russian literature the best." There is no attempt at proving how Russian stories are "far superior" to German, French, American, British or Italian writers. There is no attempt to back up the claims that Russian fiction is "far better and of a higher quality" than all the other national literature. Really? And what Russian writer surpasses Shakespeare or Dante or Homer or Firdowsi? And there is no attempt to explain just how Russian fiction is philosophically superior? Again... superior to what? prove to us where Russian literature is so profound in comparison to all other national literature, otherwise all you are doing is spouting hot air.

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Well, I think we can all be certain Tolstoy would beat them all at Drag racing. After all, Homer could write like a god, but he was a wimp.

Homer might have problems in a street fight, to say nothing of drag racing, considering his blindness. The Elizabethans, on the other hand, were a rather rowdy bunch (remember Marlowe) vs Tolstoy the pampered celibate aristocrat with illusions of becoming a prophet so I think Shakespeare could certainly hold his own ground. My money, however, would go with Dante, who survived any number of rounds of vicious political upheavals. This, after all, is not the portrait of someone to trifle with:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2088/...72de4f3547.jpg

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Originally Posted by stlukesguild

Homer might have problems in a street fight, to say nothing of drag racing, considering his blindness. The Elizabethans, on the other hand, were a rather rowdy bunch (remember Marlowe) vs Tolstoy the pampered celibate aristocrat with illusions of becoming a prophet so I think Shakespeare could certainly hold his own ground. My money, however, would go with Dante, who survived any number of rounds of vicious political upheavals. This, after all, is not the portrait of someone to trifle with:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2088/...72de4f3547.jpg

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Wow, badass and great writing skills, and they say great writers are boring.

He looks really scary :(

Russian literature is really insuperable and it has a wonderful variety and so many forms. Tollway for example is a matchless writer in war and peace, Anna Karena, Resurrection. Chekhov has so many masterpieces. Dostoevsky's novels transports us into our inner selves and Gogol' sarcasm is superb and beyond compare. The rest of the world must learn from the Russian tradition. I always take Russian as writers my guiding stars. They are my fountainheads of inspirations.

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Originally Posted by blazeofglory

French literature is really insuperable and it has a wonderful variety and so many forms. Flaubert for example is a matchless writer in Madame Bovary, Salammbo, Sentimental Education. Zola has so many masterpieces. Stendhal's novels transport us into our inner selves and Baudelaire's sarcasm is superb and beyond compare. The rest of the world must learn from the French tradition. I always take French writers as my guiding stars. They are my fountainheads of inspirations.

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Originally Posted by blazeofglory

English literature is really insuperable and it has a wonderful variety and so many forms. George Eliot for example is a matchless writer in Middlemarch, Daniel Deronda, Silas Marner. Dickens has so many masterpieces. Joseph Conrad's novels transport us into our inner selves and Thackeray's sarcasm is superb and beyond compare. The rest of the world must learn from the English tradition. I always take English writers as my guiding stars. They are my fountainheads of inspirations.

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Originally Posted by blazeofglory

Italian literature is really insuperable and it has a wonderful variety and so many forms. D'Annunzio for example is a matchless writer in The Child Of Pleasure, The Innocent, The Triumph Of Death. Verga has so many masterpieces. Manzoni's novels transport us into our inner selves and Svevo's sarcasm is superb and beyond compare. The rest of the world must learn from the Italian tradition. I always take Italian writers as my guiding stars. They are my fountainheads of inspirations.

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Originally Posted by blazeofglory

American literature is really insuperable and it has a wonderful variety and so many forms.Whitman for example is a matchless writer in Song Of Myself, O Captain My Captain,I Saw in Louisiana a Live-Oak Growing. Emerson has so many masterpieces. Melville's novels transport us into our inner selves and Twain's sarcasm is superb and beyond compare. The rest of the world must learn from the American tradition. I always take American writers as my guiding stars. They are my fountainheads of inspirations.

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There we go I fixed your statement

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Originally Posted by stlukesguild

Homer might have problems in a street fight, to say nothing of drag racing, considering his blindness. The Elizabethans, on the other hand, were a rather rowdy bunch (remember Marlowe) vs Tolstoy the pampered celibate aristocrat with illusions of becoming a prophet so I think Shakespeare could certainly hold his own ground. My money, however, would go with Dante, who survived any number of rounds of vicious political upheavals. This, after all, is not the portrait of someone to trifle with:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2088/...72de4f3547.jpg

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I do think you undervalue Tolstoy, in his youth he was a military officer serving in the caucasus and participating in several battles, the most significant of which was the siege of Sevastopol which was a dam harsh fight.

But I think the tittle for bad arse must go to Cervantes, his resume includes:

- Serving 6 years in the Spanish Navy Infantry

- Fought in major naval Battle against the Turks in 1571, where he received three gunshot wounds.

- Participated in military expeditions to Corfu and Navarino; and in the conquest of the capital of Tunis - La Goletta.

-On his way to Barcelona his ship was captured by Algerian pirates, and he was taken into slavery, serving five years as an algerian slave before his family was able to pay his ransom and free him from slavery. During those five years he attempted to escape four times, unsuccessfully.

- On his return to Spain he left the army and traveled the spanish empire as a tax collector. During this period he was imprisoned twice for debt.

- Towards the end of his life he settled in Madrid.


What writer can top that level of bad assery? Come to think of it his life would make an awesome movie.

The truth is that many poets of Spanish golden age were soldiers or had militar careers. Camoes too. It was somehow a trait of period.

You can include here, maybe François Villon, a not good guy, or Cicer, who obviously, fought against Caesar an Octavio (albeit he was no footman or something). Obviously, Richard Burton is a writer and since he is Indiana Jones he would defeat them all.

I liked Gogol, what was left of him, as a young man. I read Crime and Punishment and liked the end. I loved Zamyatin's We. Not much more to tell, I am afraid.

The Russians are the best because many (Dostoevsky, Tolstoy, Solzhenitsyn etc) lived during totalitarian regimes who would kill you if they didn't like what you said. Thus much of their intention is cloaked within the deep, penetrating, heavy nature of their work. In this way Dostoevsky criticized the Russian institutions, including the church, while evading execution.

While I do love Bulgakov and Tolstoy, Dostoevsky is the master here. That's why I chose Fyodor as my handle. His best work, The Brother's Karamazov does not show the length and depth of this penetration, even if it is his best effort. The Possessed, or The Demons is the best illustration of what it took to say 'something' during this radical time of political and social oppression.

It is unfortunate that so many people are forced to read "Crime and Punishment" which is his worst novel. Instead try either "Notes From Underground" or "The Gambler" for an introduction to his writing.

I have not read any but have heard much praise of it.

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Originally Posted by Fyodor

The Russians are the best because many (Dostoevsky, Tolstoy, Solzhenitsyn etc) lived during totalitarian regimes who would kill you if they didn't like what you said. Thus much of their intention is cloaked within the deep, penetrating, heavy nature of their work. In this way Dostoevsky criticized the Russian institutions, including the church, while evading execution.

While I do love Bulgakov and Tolstoy, Dostoevsky is the master here. That's why I chose Fyodor as my handle. His best work, The Brother's Karamazov does not show the length and depth of this penetration, even if it is his best effort. The Possessed, or The Demons is the best illustration of what it took to say 'something' during this radical time of political and social oppression.

It is unfortunate that so many people are forced to read "Crime and Punishment" which is his worst novel. Instead try either "Notes From Underground" or "The Gambler" for an introduction to his writing.

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I have to agree. I began Dostoevsky with Crime and Punishment and thought it was just OK, felt a little predictable in parts. But Brothers Karamazov, for me, was thorougly engaging beginning to end. And for a work of dark characters - a murder mystery, and some pretty deep philosophical inquiries, it managed a good deal of humor.

Tolstoy's War and Peace, I found to be a page turner, once you got through the first 100 or so pages and got straight with all of the characters.

War and Peace? God, that's so Russian - it's got jackboots.

The Russians are the best because many (Dostoevsky, Tolstoy, Solzhenitsyn etc) lived during totalitarian regimes who would kill you if they didn't like what you said.

What does the environment that an artist works under have to do with the merit or lack of merit of his or her work? Even were this true, many other writers lived under equally oppressive conditions and in dangerous times. Dante was banished under penalty of death from his home of Florence as the result of shifts in politics. The great majority of the artists and writers of the Italian Renaissance worked for rapacious, violent, and vengeful rulers who were not far removed from the Latin-American drug lords of today... and this doesn't even begin to deal with the Church especially at the height of the Inquisition, the Witch Hunts, and the various religious wars that ripped through Europe. It is quite possible that Chaucer was a casualty of the coup which ousted Richard II and replaced him with Henry Bolingbroke and the bloodthirsty Thomas Arundel, Archbishop of Canterbury and later Lord Chamberlain (Who MUrdered Chaucer? A Medieval Mystery by Terry Jones, Robert Yeager, Terry Dolan, Alan Fletcher, and Juliette Dor). Thomas Kyd was arrested for alleged libelous and heretical writings and brutally tortured before being released. He died a year later at the age of 36. Christopher Marlowe, who shared lodgings with Kyd was also summoned before the courts but died in a bar-brawl (assassination?) with known government agents. Sir Thomas More was executed on trumped up charges of high treason. Sir Walter Raleigh was also executed upon trumped up charges of treason. Any number of other writers have dealt with arrest, banishment, imprisonment, jail time, institutionalization and execution for "crimes" ranging from mental illness, treason, profanity, and obscenity to homosexuality (John Clare, Torquado Tasso, Ovid, Seneca, Oscar Wilde, Holderlin, Verlaine, Jean Genet, etc...).

Thus much of their intention is cloaked within the deep, penetrating, heavy nature of their work. In this way Dostoevsky criticized the Russian institutions, including the church, while evading execution.

The fact that a work of literature is dark, brooding, and "heavy" in no way assures us that the same work is inherently "better" or more profound than many other "lighter" or humorous books. Of course that's a prejudice common to the young and inexperienced. Dostoevsky and Tolstoy are certainly great writers... but in no way are they (and their other Russian peers) clearly "better" than the strongest writers of France, Italy, Spain, Germany, England, Greece, etc... to say nothing of Indian, China, Japan, Persia, and the whole of the non-Western world.

But I don't agree that you have actually said anything.

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Originally Posted by stlukesguild

The Russians are the best because many (Dostoevsky, Tolstoy, Solzhenitsyn etc) lived during totalitarian regimes who would kill you if they didn't like what you said.

What does the environment that an artist works under have to do with the merit or lack of merit of his or her work? Even were this true, many other writers lived under equally oppressive conditions and in dangerous times. Dante was banished under penalty of death from his home of Florence as the result of shifts in politics. The great majority of the artists and writers of the Italian Renaissance worked for rapacious, violent, and vengeful rulers who were not far removed from the Latin-American drug lords of today... and this doesn't even begin to deal with the Church especially at the height of the Inquisition, the Witch Hunts, and the various religious wars that ripped through Europe. It is quite possible that Chaucer was a casualty of the coup which ousted Richard II and replaced him with Henry Bolingbroke and the bloodthirsty Thomas Arundel, Archbishop of Canterbury and later Lord Chamberlain (Who MUrdered Chaucer? A Medieval Mystery by Terry Jones, Robert Yeager, Terry Dolan, Alan Fletcher, and Juliette Dor). Thomas Kyd was arrested for alleged libelous and heretical writings and brutally tortured before being released. He died a year later at the age of 36. Christopher Marlowe, who shared lodgings with Kyd was also summoned before the courts but died in a bar-brawl (assassination?) with known government agents. Sir Thomas More was executed on trumped up charges of high treason. Sir Walter Raleigh was also executed upon trumped up charges of treason. Any number of other writers have dealt with arrest, banishment, imprisonment, jail time, institutionalization and execution for "crimes" ranging from mental illness, treason, profanity, and obscenity to homosexuality (John Clare, Torquado Tasso, Ovid, Seneca, Oscar Wilde, Holderlin, Verlaine, Jean Genet, etc...).

Thus much of their intention is cloaked within the deep, penetrating, heavy nature of their work. In this way Dostoevsky criticized the Russian institutions, including the church, while evading execution.

The fact that a work of literature is dark, brooding, and "heavy" in no way assures us that the same work is inherently "better" or more profound than many other "lighter" or humorous books. Of course that's a prejudice common to the young and inexperienced. Dostoevsky and Tolstoy are certainly great writers... but in no way are they (and their other Russian peers) clearly "better" than the strongest writers of France, Italy, Spain, Germany, England, Greece, etc... to say nothing of Indian, China, Japan, Persia, and the whole of the non-Western world.

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Well if you are having such difficulty grasping what I have said I'll put it in simple terms: Russian literature certainly produced a body of marvelous literature but it is in no way clearly superior to the bodies of literature produced in France, Italy, Spain, Germany, Greece, England, India, Persia, China, or any number of other nations.

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Originally Posted by stlukesguild

Well if you are having such difficulty grasping what I have said I'll put it in simple terms: Russian literature certainly produced a body of marvelous literature but it is in no way clearly superior to the bodies of literature produced in France, Italy, Spain, Germany, Greece, England, India, Persia, China, or any number of other nations.

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This is certainly untrue. In one way, at least, Russian literature is "clearly superior to the bodies of literature produced in France, Italy, Spain, Germany, Greece..."

What is that way? The opinion of Fyodor, of course.

Quite true. And isn't this where there is the source of debate... when one places one's personal opinion up as if it were a fact set in stone and beyond all question? There have been those of us who have equally questioned the assertion by one member that Ulysses is the single greatest book ever written.... or even that Shakespeare is clearly the single greatest writer without question.

It's not that I don't understand what you are saying. It's my contention that you are not saying anything.

I prefer the "who would win in a fight" argument. Since you're into painting, what about Carravaggio representing that art form. He was banished from Rome for killing a man in a sword fight.

Tolstoy may have been a soldier as a young man -- but wasn't he a die-hard pacifist later in life? That has to count against him. Byron (club foot and all) is still a hero in Greece for fighting the Turks (and athletic enought to swim the Hellespont, too). Hemmingway fancied himself a boxer, and FX Toole (of "Million Dollar Baby" fame) was a pro boxer.

I think we should disqualify professional athletes who (perhaps) have ghostwriting help for their books. WE have to go with people who are famous for their artistic talents (rather than banking on their athletic fame ot whip out some books). Didn't Alexandre Dumas fight some duels?

Richard Burton vs. François Villon.

I prefer the "who would win in a fight" argument. Since you're into painting, what about Carravaggio representing that art form. He was banished from Rome for killing a man in a sword fight.

Artists in a bar fight. Hmmm... Caravaggio would surely be a contender... but those sculptors were involved in some seriously heavy labor. I imagine Michelangelo, Donatello, ad Bernini must have had arms like roofers.:lol:

It's my contention that you are not saying anything.

Fair enough... considering my contention is that you don't know anything.:ciappa:

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Originally Posted by stlukesguild

Fair enough... considering my contention is that you don't know anything.

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As much as it pains me to agree with any statement followed by an emoticon, I have to concur with Stlukesguild on this one. Anyone who would contend that the works of Tolstoy and Dostoyevski occupy an unrivaled position in literature superior to Homer's Iliad, Virgil's Aeneid, Vyasa's Mahabharata, Ferdowsi's Shahnameh, Dante's Divine Comedy, Cao Xueqin's Dream of the Red Chamber, Cervante's Don Quixote, Shakespeare's Hamlet, and Goethe's Faust is demonstrating an appalling ignorance about world literature.

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Originally Posted by Fyodor

It's not that I don't understand what you are saying. It's my contention that you are not saying anything.

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Wrong. St. Luke presented a cogent argument against Russian exceptionalism with well-chosen examples. It is you who haven't said anything.

Mortalterror,

Does a pair of waggling virtual butt-cheeks qualify as an emoticon?

And if the emotions is before the statement, does it have more appeal?

:idea:Moby dick has certainly qualities that rivals any novel even written, even the without doubt, most influential of all, Don Quixote. It is as epic as Tolstoy and as deeply psychological as Dostoievisky at once.

Sounds how bad?

Start here, boyo:

I say that the Russians are the Best. Maybe this is my true opinion, maybe it's a bit hyperbole, maybe I know that it is impossible to say for a fact what is the best in terms of art, maybe I don't. I don't think it's a great crime, however, you are ready to indict me.

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Originally Posted by stlukesguild

The Russians are the best because many (Dostoevsky, Tolstoy, Solzhenitsyn etc) lived during totalitarian regimes who would kill you if they didn't like what you said.

And this is your indictment? Look at the start, you ask a rhetorical question, what does environment have to do with merit? Then you say 'even if it were true...' Even if WHAT were true?
This lacks even a small amount of sense.
Then you go into a diatribe about examples in history to show how very, very smart you are. Nice job, but I can't possibly care because of the poor start.
What does the environment that an artist works under have to do with the merit or lack of merit of his or her work? Even were this true, many other writers lived under equally oppressive conditions and in dangerous times. Dante was banished under penalty of death from his home of Florence as the result of shifts in politics. The great majority of the artists and writers of the Italian Renaissance worked for rapacious, violent, and vengeful rulers who were not far removed from the Latin-American drug lords of today... and this doesn't even begin to deal with the Church especially at the height of the Inquisition, the Witch Hunts, and the various religious wars that ripped through Europe. It is quite possible that Chaucer was a casualty of the coup which ousted Richard II and replaced him with Henry Bolingbroke and the bloodthirsty Thomas Arundel, Archbishop of Canterbury and later Lord Chamberlain (Who MUrdered Chaucer? A Medieval Mystery by Terry Jones, Robert Yeager, Terry Dolan, Alan Fletcher, and Juliette Dor). Thomas Kyd was arrested for alleged libelous and heretical writings and brutally tortured before being released. He died a year later at the age of 36. Christopher Marlowe, who shared lodgings with Kyd was also summoned before the courts but died in a bar-brawl (assassination?) with known government agents. Sir Thomas More was executed on trumped up charges of high treason. Sir Walter Raleigh was also executed upon trumped up charges of treason. Any number of other writers have dealt with arrest, banishment, imprisonment, jail time, institutionalization and execution for "crimes" ranging from mental illness, treason, profanity, and obscenity to homosexuality (John Clare, Torquado Tasso, Ovid, Seneca, Oscar Wilde, Holderlin, Verlaine, Jean Genet, etc...).

And Now, I say that much of their intention is cloaked within the deep, penetrating, heavy nature of their work.

Thus much of their intention is cloaked within the deep, penetrating, heavy nature of their work. In this way Dostoevsky criticized the Russian institutions, including the church, while evading execution.


You seem to think I said 'dark, brooding and heavy. You only got one out of three correct and missed my point entirely.
The fact that a work of literature is dark, brooding, and "heavy" in no way assures us that the same work is inherently "better" or more profound than many other "lighter" or humorous books. Of course that's a prejudice common to the young and inexperienced. Dostoevsky and Tolstoy are certainly great writers... but in no way are they (and their other Russian peers) clearly "better" than the strongest writers of France, Italy, Spain, Germany, England, Greece, etc... to say nothing of Indian, China, Japan, Persia, and the whole of the non-Western world.

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Thus, in your quixotic fashion you are fighting a windmill that nobody ever built. Perhaps this means you are an even greater genius than you yourself can hope. But I doubt it.

So to be fair to the rest of the nice folks on this forum, if you’re going to go around nitpicking and attempting to force your vision of superior intellect on people, please, for the love literature, at least make sense. Generally speaking.

Are "Russian literature is the best" and "Russian literature is my favorite" synonymous? It seems to me that one attempts to make a general classification, the other expresses a personal preference.

Fyodor slipped sloppery...

The true greatest tradition of writers are the canadians.