Religion, Sex and Vulgarity

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Originally Posted by Paulclem

Nevertheless we have a lot to thank religion for - charity, anti-slavery movements and laws, civil rights support, protection of rights, holidays etc.

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Since religion caused most of the issues facing mankind, including the ones you list, I don't know whether we should thank it, but I do admit that religion, particularly the more moderate kinds, are of net benefit to mankind.

When they become fundamental and used as a blueprint for all life, then I think they move into negative territory and aren't worth preservation.

Not that they'll be going anywhere soon.

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Originally Posted by Paulclem

How religions have been utilised has depended upon the practitioners - both for good and bad - politically, socially and interpersonally. That's why religions often have such a bad name because of the way it has been used and abused by powermongers.

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Bingo!

And by the same token, should we not credit those who have used the power in better ways instead of the religion?

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Originally Posted by Paulclem

In Pakistan their ambulances are run by a charity - the Edhi foundation. There is no other organised ambulance services available in Pakistan.

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Same in New Zealand - ours are run by St John.

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Originally Posted by Paulclem

Here I am impressed by the salvtion Army. Our local hostel has rooms for 100 males who would otherwise be sleepng rough. They are not easy blokes to deal with either. All run by ordinary christians.

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I admit the Sallies do some good work, but for me, they lose all their points by being so fervently anti-gay.

I'd rather have no altruists than bigoted ones.

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Originally Posted by Paulclem

It just seems too easy to dismiss everything religions have to say on aspects of human life.

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It is easy, when their desire and attempts to have that say are based on thousands of years old manuscripts of dubious value and authenticity.

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Originally Posted by dizzydoll

Me too, I agree with you wholeheartedly. But I am going to strike out here now and probably be hammered for it. So here's the 1st question, what % of the population is gay? I could be wrong but I figured it must be around 10%, and if this is the case why should we bother discussing it?

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That's the number I always see touted by LGBT rights groups, but I don't buy a bar of it.

I'd say the real number is somewhere less than 5%.

That said, I don't think the rate is relevant - it's perfectly human behaviour and lot more user-friendly than spitting on the footpath, which seems to be quite natural behaviour, but one which I find disgusting.

Gayness, on the other hand is natural, harmless and not at all disgusting.

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Originally Posted by dizzydoll

I have worked and played with gays and I find them often very narcissistic. Why must we constantly talk about their issues and thousands of $$$ are spent on appeasing them when they are only 10% of the population?

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God, I wish we'd taken that attitude when we gave you sheilas the vote!

"There's your vote, don't come crying to us about equality of pay, opportunities and freedom from discrimination!"

Emmeline Pankhurst, eat my shorts!

Gays have been discriminated against for longer than almost all other groups, and are still discriminated against in lots of countries, to the extent of death penalty in some.

I think they have a right to be a touch homocentric about the issues.

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Originally Posted by dizzydoll

I am blonde, so my issue is that I find blonde jokes offensive and so I take issue with people who tell them. Do you get my gist?

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:lol:

You wouldn't like me, then!

My wife's a blonde. She forwarded me a joke on the seven levels of blondeness yesterday, so let me know if you want 'em.

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Originally Posted by dizzydoll

Gay issues fit into the same category, imo. And why do gays always want to talk about societies acceptance of them, or is it possible they want all of us to become like them? Just asking.

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Dunno about you, but I have lots of gay mates and none of them want me.

I feel so left out, dammit!

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Originally Posted by dizzydoll

I think gays would do better to pick up the banner for a group in need, like disabled people, and by doing that it might help them get over themselves.

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That's twice you analogise gayness and disability in the same sentence.

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Originally Posted by borty

Sex and religion are emotionally charged for many people because they involve intimacy. If people choose to attack one another what better way to insult than to use their sex and religion against them.

Many wars have been fought over such issues.

Homosexuals have been discriminated against throughout history and it isn't surprizing that a back lash from them occurs in todays more open society. We still have a long way to go before most societies accept homosexuality.

Homosexuality occurs in many species, not just humans.

Several religions believe homosexuality is a sin and many gay people are excluded from worship and some even claim they are demon possessed.

I believe sex is one of many expressions of love. In our present society it has become to many people a commondity to be bought and sold like ice cream.

Sort of drains the sacredness out of it ...don't you think?

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Well put!

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Originally Posted by blazeofglory

A great Indian mystic, named Osho wrote a book called from sex to supreme consciousness and the book raised great uproars throughout the country but the same book popularized or recognized him globally.

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I agree with you. He was a rebel and it must have been very difficult to refuse to conform to what society saw as normal, especially as he decided to go against his upbringing by not marrying or having kids... in those days that was quite a radical stance.

I also agree he was a great teacher but he did hang around with bad company at certain stages of his life, understandably so.. a rebel will always attract rebels.

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Originally Posted by The Atheist

You wouldn't like me, then!

My wife's a blonde. She forwarded me a joke on the seven levels of blondeness yesterday, so let me know if you want 'em.

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You missed my point... and yes I want them. :D

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Originally Posted by borty

Several religions believe homosexuality is a sin and many gay people are excluded from worship and some even claim they are demon possessed.

I believe sex is one of many expressions of love. In our present society it has become to many people a commondity to be bought and sold like ice cream.

Sort of drains the sacredness out of it ...don't you think?

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I agree with you 100% Bort being gay is not a sin and as stated earlier I have no problem with gays per-say, I just dont understand why so much time and money should be spent on them instead of focusing on much more pressing causes to make others' lives easier. Surely you can see my point as you provide an excellent service for hospice. Dont you think gay people will feel better about themselves when they find a higher cause to focus on other than themselves?

And then my mind keeps going back to its only 10% [or 5%] of the population, isnt it narcissistic arrogance to expect so much attention of their issues?

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Oh, I can understand the position, I just find it fascinating that the god speaks with so many different tongues

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God speaks with one tongue only and his words are the same to all nations throughout history . His words are distributed among different prophets and in different periods of time . All prophets said the same basic things and they complement each other .It's one religion that begun with Adam and ended with Mohammad (p.B.U. H). The differences are because the followers of the religion deviates from the right path . It happened with Mohammad too when he died. Some followers loved him to the extent that they wouldn't believe he could die like any other human being . They converted from Islam when their prophet died . So one of his disciples delivered a very famous speech in the history of Islam ; he said :If you WORSHIP Mohammad , Mohammad died . IF you worship God , God is alive and can never die .
The followers of Jesus loved him to the extent that they made him the son of God . They worshipped him, distorted his words . And here the problem begins ............

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This is the part i have a major problem with, especially in the light of 50 million child brides in the world at present, and almost all of them under islamic law.

Being a Muslim doesn't mean you know everything about Islam and you apply everything .
THIS HAS TO DO WITH TRADITIONS NOT WITH RELIGION . TRIBES HAVE TRADITIONS THAT OVERPOWER RELIGION .

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Whether or not a child is sexually mature at 6, 8 or 10, it is most emphatically not ready to indulge in sexual intercourse or be a mother.

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This is a social ,cultural and economic issue and it is decreasing with time . You said 50 millions child bribes . It was much more in the past and it will be less in the future.

Some of us in the world find that idea quite repulsive - that a child should be forced into a position where an adult male may legally exploit, sexually abuse and control her

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Originally Posted by caddy_caddy

The followers of Jesus loved him to the extent that they made him the son of God . They worshipped him, distorted his words . And here the problem begins .............

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Right on, you are absolutely correct on this one. I cannot speak for Islam cos I know very little about it and I am am pleased for the diverse cultures on this thread to enlighten all of us. Talking and learning about others faiths never killed anyone. Its all good even tho I might not share the same views.

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Originally Posted by dizzydoll

I do know how many, they have opened up with me extensively as far as their sexuality is concerned. I speak from direct experience as many gay guys seek answers from women.

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So you are fully conversant with the sexuality of every person you've ever worked with. Wow. How special.

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Blondes are often exploited sexually from a very young age.. as far as I am concerned that IS a civil rights issue.

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So are brunettes. What's your point?

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From direct experience I find this <that gays are narcissitic and self-serving> to be true.

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If I were to say that from direct experience I find that blondes are slutty dimwits, would you consider that admissible evidence?

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We have lived with this attitude all our lives... in fact when the apartheid regime lost the vote the whole world expected and I dare say 'hoped for' for a blood bath. It didnt happen, have you ever wondered why? Your attitude or that of those around you is not new to us and so doesnt faze us. Until you come to this country and meet its people you are just shooting hot air.

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And that's exactly my point. You quite rightly get defensive when I make outrageous generalisations about South Africans derived from my own experience, and yet you expect us to accept your outrageous generalisations about gays, derived from your experience.

Your argument has fallen flat. You are going to have to come back with something better than that, or offer your services to a higher cause.

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Originally Posted by dizzydoll

I agree with you. He was a rebel and it must have been very difficult to refuse to conform to what society saw as normal, especially as he decided to go against his upbringing by not marrying or having kids... in those days that was quite a radical stance.

I also agree he was a great teacher but he did hang around with bad company at certain stages of his life, understandably so.. a rebel will always attract rebels.

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Yes dizzydoll,

He was really a rebel and always rebelled against the established social and ethical systems and values. His first book, from sex to supreme consciousness has raised a storm.

He was a liberal and never looked at things through others' perspectives. He had always his say and his voice no matter what difficulties he had to face

Its so encouraging to see Osho has inspired men like you Blaze. Forgive me I have to bring this out.

I read from your posts that you are a strong man of principal and morals. Just remember life is not a problem, its a solution to a problem. If you focus only on problems you will weaken and that is no good. Solutions bring progress as nothing else can.. we rack our brains and then *poof* we find them.

Look at it this way, the past is gone.. buried, nothing we can do about that, but we can do a tremendous amount in the present for future generations of girls. It might be difficult to do but you should stand up alongside like-minded men for womens rights in your country. Motto: One step at a time, there is no looking back.

I believe God sends people like Osho to enlighten all of us, so dont be too hard on yourself or your plan of action, lets be grateful that at last its all coming together.. women today are much better off than we were in the past.. I am sure this is the case even in your country. So the first step is always, be grateful.. and more will follow. Promise.

Lets celebrate to the success already achieved.

If we are able to break the sound barrier , surely we are able to do this.

:gnorsi:

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Please do not personalise your arguments.

If you find yourself unable to show respect and understanding towards those who do not share your views -especially on religious and moral issues-, please refrain from posting in these threads.

Posts containing personal/inflammatory comments will be deleted without any further notice.

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Since religion caused most of the issues facing mankind, including the ones you list, I don't know whether we should thank it, but I do admit that religion, particularly the more moderate kinds, are of net benefit to mankind.

When they become fundamental and used as a blueprint for all life, then I think they move into negative territory and aren't worth preservation.

Not that they'll be going anywhere soon.

I agree with this.

And by the same token, should we not credit those who have used the power in better ways instead of the religion?

Yes

It is easy, when their desire and attempts to have that say are based on thousands of years old manuscripts of dubious value and authenticity.

I agree.

I guess what I'm getting at is that I think when religions start trying to affect the lives of people and inflicting their beliefs, then it is often negative. We are moving away from the organised infuence in some parts of the west - the UK and Europe. Here in the UK religious leaders make their comments and squabble about Gay admission to the church whilst the rest of society has enshrined their rights in law and moved on. The legal system has thankfully taken over much of the church's province in this respect.

As a set of standards for an individual to lead their life, religions do provide a good role model. I suppose this is what I am getting at.

Religion - powerful organisation - attempting to affect policy, laws, individual conduct - bad

Religion - set of standards to lead your life by, promoting good/ charitable works/ vocations/ setting a good example to others, not interfering in other business - generally good.

I wasn't aware that the Sally A was anti-Gay. That goes against them, but I still can't deny the positive effect they have. :D

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Originally Posted by The Atheist

That's the number I always see touted by LGBT rights groups, but I don't buy a bar of it.

I'd say the real number is somewhere less than 5%.

That said, I don't think the rate is relevant - it's perfectly human behaviour and lot more user-friendly than spitting on the footpath, which seems to be quite natural behaviour, but one which I find disgusting.

Gayness, on the other hand is natural, harmless and not at all disgusting.

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The most accurate statistics are 4-6% for self-identifying homosexuals, and then if you include self-identifying bisexuals you get another 3%. So, 7-9% for the entire LGBT community is fairly accurate. However, in major urban centers you get the gay migration phenomenon so the numbers get inflated a few percentage points. The gay population in New York is disproportionately large compared to the rest of the USA. That's why Kinsey got the inflated numbers because he was using strictly urban samples. I'm not exactly sure that the population should matter when it comes to civil rights. Natives, and Africans make up less of that population in Canada, should we then be ignoring their civil rights?

@dizzy

I'm mildly insulted that you think blondes are equally discriminated against as homosexuals. Also, what money is the government spending on gays exactly? Last I checked gays aren't even considered a visible minority so we don't get affirmative action. The only people spending money on gay issues, are gay and anti-gay lobbying groups.

Let's look at the comparative history of blondes (which some gays happen to be too, besides the point) and gays.

Figures from the government of Canada:

Violent hate crimes committed against blacks in 2006: 90
Violent hate crimes committed against Jews in 2006: 32
Violent hate crimes committed against homosexuals in 2006: 44

Those are the 3 most discriminated against (in terms of actual violence) in Canada. Making homosexuals the second most discriminated against. Unfortunately, the government of Canada doesn't keep figures on how many people cite blondness as a reason for assault, because nobody does.

How about historically.

Last time someone was sent to jail for being homosexual (and declared by a psychiatrist unlikely to stop having sex with men) in Canada was 1967. Last time someone was jailed simply for being blonde... gee can't find that stat.

Also, Mark's argument doesn't fall flat because he is absolutely right about your jump to baseless generalizations. If you think the disabled deserve more attention than gays from the government (still not sure what attention gays actually get from the government) then blame the masses of straight people who are more obsessed with gays than the disabled.

Hello Pip, firstly the fact that I mentioned disabled people was merely as an example. Serving any higher cause is better than serving ourselves be you gay or not. That was the point I was striving for which I have no doubt you understood anyway.

Secondly you express your views, and I express mine. You seem to have little time for blondes I see. I wonder what % of little girls [I believe blondes are in high demand] are exploited through porn etc. These days the younger the better. For me those are real life civil rights issues against all children with dire long term repercussions. Yet somehow the law cannot stop online porn or there is just too much money earned to care, after all someone gets tax from google, yahoo etc.

But hey, whatever floats your boat. You, like me, are happy with your opinions. So I say it again if a blonde finds blonde jokes offensive she must get over herself. If gays have a problem with public opinion of them, they must get over themselves.. both should find a higher cause to get their teeth into and stop being so narcissistic. For me the blonde analogy with gays works perfectly. Clearly you and I agree to disagree so there is no more to discuss.

Cost of money -- the cops cost the state money every time there are public demonstrations by gays, plus I am sure there are more costs but I really couldnt care less about their issues.

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Originally Posted by dizzydoll

Hello Pip, firstly the fact that I mentioned disabled people was merely as an example. Serving any higher cause is better than serving ourselves be you gay or not. That was the point I was striving for which I have no doubt you understood anyway.

Secondly you express your views, and I expressed mine. I wonder what % of little girls [I believe blondes are in high demand] are exploited through porn etc. These days the younger the better. For me those are real life civil rights issues against all children with dire long term repercussions. Yet somehow the law cannot stop online porn or there is just too much money to care, after all someone gets tax from google, yahoo etc.

But hey, whatever floats your boat. You, like me, are happy with your opinions. So I say it again if a blonde finds blonde jokes offensive she must get over herself. If gays have a problem with public opinion of them, they must get over themselves.. both should find a higher cause to get their teeth into and stop being so narcissistic. For me the blonde analogy with gays works perfectly. Clearly you and I agree to disagree so there is no more to discuss.

Cost of money -- the cops cost money every time there are public demonstrations by gays, plus I am sure there are more but I really couldnt care less about their issues.

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Oh please, so you think gays should stop exercising democratic rights and just roll over and take the abuse. I'd rather be dead than just smile and nod at every affront. I'm not talking about jokes here, I'm talking about physical harm and equity.

If you care so much about how blondes are treated do something about it instead of blaming other groups for not caring enough about it. If gays don't fight for gay rights, nobody else is going to do it. Society doesn't hand people rights and equity on silver platters, it's always an uphill battle. The battle isn't over, and it's not going to stop until equity is achieved, and even then it has to continue to prevent regression.

Edit: As if porn has anything to do with this at all, as if gays are diverting attention against the imagined plight of porn starlets.

I rest my case.

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Originally Posted by dizzydoll

I rest my case.

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Fine if you think it's good to be a sheep and walked over by others, so be it. Good luck in the world with that attitude.