Religion, Sex and Vulgarity

[Virgil]

Do you have less limiting diction when it comes to disparaging what isn't godspel in your worldview? Anthropology isn't astro-physics, but as the study of humanity it is a science, within certain parameters; it intersects with biology, forensics, and a number of other disciplines, and doesn't fall under mild epithets for feces.

Whatever my world view is, it's science based. As someone who has a degree from a science discipline and a degree from a liberal arts discipline, I can tell you there is a world of difference between the curriculium and approaches. Sorry, there just is.

It is certainly more valuable than Catholicism's history of torture and child abuse and then covering all this up for the sake of protecting the divine sanction of the so called Church.

What the hell is that all about? Sounds like you're off mixing subjects. Second, my worldview is science based (first and foremost I am a mechaincal engineer), and it is in no way incompatable with my R.C.

[Shalot]

It probably has more to do with males controlling women to guarantee the paternity of women. That's why virgin wives are so universally popular across many cultures. I think it's a little optimistic to concentrate on protecting women from the dangers of childbirth, especially when Christianity's views of marriage essentially prescribes them to be baby factories with little regard to their health.

I would venture a guess that religious restrictions of masturbation probably arise out of some primitive vain idolatry of semen.

The persecution of homosexual acts arise out of the usual desire to punish anything out of the normal.

why do people in general think there is something abnormal about homosexuality? it's common. Some people are gay and some aren't. So homosexuality is normal. Did people start feeling guilty about their sexual orientation because they were afraid they'd get their butts kicked or killed or where exactly do people pick up this sex-related shame (and the last part of that applies to all orientations) and where do these ideas about what's "normal" come from? That last sentence up there seems to say that homosexuality is abnormal and that's why there arose the need to persecute. But maybe the reality is that homosexuality is normal, and someone decided that it wasn't? But then you go back to the shame guilt thing - I guess I'm just asking, which came first?

[OrphanPip]

I was using normal in the sense of near the average. I don't accept naturalistic tautologies that suggest moral behavior can be extrapolated from "natural" behavior. Besides, all human behavior must be natural by definition, as we are part of nature and so is our culture, the nature/culture binary is an artificial invention.

I obviously don't have anything against homosexuality lol.

I'm not familiar with the dominant theories for why it is persecuted, but I imagine it's tied in with cultural ideas of sex being merely for reproduction and the valuing of sexual constraint. From what I know there are pretty much 4 forms of homosexual societal views that have existed. One is ceremonial, the second is pederastic, the third is heteronormative, and the last is repressive. I would say homosexuality in the west falls into the heteronormative range, where homosexual relations mimic the culture heterosexual norms in large part and exclusive sexuality is more often practiced. Many tribal cultures have been observed to use ceremonial homosexual acts as forms of rites of passage. The prominent example being the rituals of Papua New Guinean tribes that inseminate pubescent boys as a way of passing on masculinity to the younger man. Pederastic relationships seem to be structured on power relations between a male in a more dominant position with one in a submissive position, the Ancient Greeks and warrior culture in Feudal Japan are good examples of this. Then you have the traditional Abrahamic situation where homosexual behavior is viewed negatively and repressed.

This gets complicated in cultures that have non-binary gender conceptions, and I'm sure there have been cultures that view homosexuality in different ways than the broad categories above.

[Jozanny]

why do people in general think there is something abnormal about homosexuality? it's common. Some people are gay and some aren't. So homosexuality is normal.

Homosexuality is as prevalent in other high end species as it is within human animal populations, but with this assertion stipulated, I don't like the use of the terms normal and abnormal. There isn't much that is *normal* about mating or intimacy.

And having said that as well, I have issues with gay culture and norms that I have not discussed in this forum, partly because it's personal and partly because even in my writer's head ticking off an opinion piece with the intent to be controversial, I haven't sorted this out in my own mind, since I am not sympathetic to religious views on the issue, and I try really hard not to run rough shod over rational stances with reactionary sentiment.

And you also see in the above paragraph the lengths to which I'll contort myself to avoid getting moderated.

[OrphanPip]

Joz, I'd be more than willing to get into a discussion of homosexual cultural norms in the West. I have more than my fair share of issues with it, and I don't think any culture or behavior should be beyond criticism. I especially take issue with the essential American Post-Stonewall cultural norms that seem to have pervaded Western queer culture as a whole, it's a strange phenomenon.

[Jozanny]

Joz, I'd be more than willing to get into a discussion of homosexual cultural norms in the West. I have more than my fair share of issues with it, and I don't think any culture or behavior should be beyond criticism. I especially take issue with the essential American Post-Stonewall cultural norms that seem to have pervaded Western queer culture as a whole, it's a strange phenomenon.

Pip, we may have had an uneasy introduction, but I have come to genuinely respect your views and level of education.

However much I would enjoy getting down and dirty, however, I think Sche would be thrilled if we found another way to air out what could be considered to be dirty laundry issues .

[The Atheist]

I do not try finding unnatural elements with homosexuality but still heterosexuals are more natural.

George Orwell would have loved you!

I used to work for a Lebonese family. They seriously do view homosexuality in the same light as we do, say, raping babies. Talk about effed up priorities...

Never mind Lebanese, Fred Phelps is a good enough example of how people see it.

I noticed that everyone here speaks of religion as the invention
of men and they forgot the basic thing about religion :what rules in religion is the " words of God " not the words of some human beings .
You are an athesit ; how can you understand how do those
people think if u don't agree with them on the basic issue ?!!

Oh, I can understand the position, I just find it fascinating that the god speaks with so many different tongues.

Does this mean marrying nine year olds is ok?

the average age of sexual maturity varies according to time and geographical location .
But the general rule no marriage before sexual maturation.

This is the part i have a major problem with, especially in the light of 50 million child brides in the world at present, and almost all of them under islamic law.

Whether or not a child is sexually mature at 6, 8 or 10, it is most emphatically not ready to indulge in sexual intercourse or be a mother.

Some of us in the world find that idea quite repulsive - that a child should be forced into a position where an adult male may legally exploit, sexually abuse and control her.

No . There is no relation . It's a matter of belief . We do believe that the Quran is right and everything is mentioned in it concerning Mohammad or others and everyting is right .

I know.

However, as with the christian bible, there is vast divergence between what you think Muhammad said, what another muslim thinks Muhammad said and what the Taliban tell their followers Muhammad said.

Again, as with christianity, you will never get consensus on what the quran actually means and sects will continue to use it to justify their individual beliefs.

Our culture is never our natural state.

Surely, under any meaning of "natural" our culture is our natural state?

[dizzydoll]

Originally Posted by caddy_caddy
I noticed that everyone here speaks of religion as the invention
of men and they forgot the basic thing about religion :what rules in religion is the " words of God "

Trouble is God never wrote any words. Man wrote words and he ascribed them to God. The christian bible was not written by God either, it was definitely written by insecure men. I am horrified by the many disgusting verses, in the bible, in reference to woman.... and I am not going there.

I am free right now as a women... it took a long time for females to get here.

[Paulclem]

Nevertheless we have a lot to thank religion for - charity, anti-slavery movements and laws, civil rights support, protection of rights, holidays etc.

How religions have been utilised has depended upon the practitioners - both for good and bad - politically, socially and interpersonally. That's why religions often have such a bad name because of the way it has been used and abused by powermongers.

What you also get though are many many good people who really embody the good qualities of their religion. They may not be the leaders and policy makers, but they can be the stranger who helps you.

In Pakistan their ambulances are run by a charity - the Edhi foundation. There is no other organised ambulance services available in Pakistan.

Here I am impressed by the salvtion Army. Our local hostel has rooms for 100 males who would otherwise be sleepng rough. They are not easy blokes to deal with either. All run by ordinary christians.

I can undertand the opposition to religion for all the bad effects we have seen over time and in the news, but despite all this it has a positive effect on many people.

It just seems too easy to dismiss everything religions have to say on aspects of human life.

[Jozanny]

Paul, I hear you, but my problem, say, with institutional religious power structures, is that they basically come to no good end. Virgil disparages institutional academics all of the time, in this thread and others, and that is fine. Universities are human institutions like any other, but long after I left the Roman Catholic Church, I defended it, particularly against well educated Protestants who otherwise held the most outrageous theories about what Catholic catechism was, and I think I need to break this habit from the disclosures coming out right up into the modern era. Scholars say the Inquisition was unfortunate but the good fathers were worried about the purity of the soul, and okay, life was cheap under the Spanish monarchy and the late Roman Empire before that, but the abuse of the children has been going on a long time, in secret, for most of the 20th century, in Europe and America and goodness knows where else. It breaks my heart, and I think it deserves a stronger response from me than to dismissively deem it *crap*, not that I think Commonweal would let me aim some choice words at the Vatican.

It isn't that institutional abuses don't occur elsewhere, but I am entitled to anger at a way of life in which I was raised.

[dizzydoll]

I obviously don't have anything against homosexuality lol.

Me too, I agree with you wholeheartedly. But I am going to strike out here now and probably be hammered for it. So here's the 1st question, what % of the population is gay? I could be wrong but I figured it must be around 10%, and if this is the case why should we bother discussing it? I mean, what % of the population is disabled? How often do we give them a compassionate break? They are certainly most deserving.

I have worked and played with gays and I find them often very narcissistic. Why must we constantly talk about their issues and thousands of $$$ are spent on appeasing them when they are only 10% of the population? I am blonde, so my issue is that I find blonde jokes offensive and so I take issue with people who tell them. Do you get my gist? Gay issues fit into the same category, imo. And why do gays always want to talk about societies acceptance of them, or is it possible they want all of us to become like them? Just asking.

I think gays would do better to pick up the banner for a group in need, like disabled people, and by doing that it might help them get over themselves. If they did this my respect for them would certainly improve. In the meantime I see no purpose discussing blondes who take issue with dumb jokes or narcissistic gays who take issue with society's views of them either.

Right, let me have it.

[borty]

Sex and religion are emotionally charged for many people because they involve intimacy. If people choose to attack one another what better way to insult than to use their sex and religion against them.

Many wars have been fought over such issues.

Homosexuals have been discriminated against throughout history and it isn't surprizing that a back lash from them occurs in todays more open society. We still have a long way to go before most societies accept homosexuality.

Homosexuality occurs in many species, not just humans.

Several religions believe homosexuality is a sin and many gay people are excluded from worship and some even claim they are demon possessed.

I believe sex is one of many expressions of love. In our present society it has become to many people a commondity to be bought and sold like ice cream.

Sort of drains the sacredness out of it ...don't you think?

[MarkBastable]

Me too, I agree with you wholeheartedly. But I am going to strike out here now and probably be hammered for it. So here's the 1st question, what % of the population is gay? I could be wrong but I figured it must be around 10%, and if this is the case why should we bother discussing it? I mean, what % of the population is disabled? How often do we give them a compassionate break? They are certainly most deserving.

Well, I don't know about South Africa, but in the UK the answer is 'all the time' - and quite right too.

I have worked and played with gays and I find them often very narcissistic.

This is a version of the 'hair-piece error' - where people say 'I can always tell when a guy is wearing a wig'. You can't ever know that that's true because if someone were wearing a wig and you didn't know, you wouldn't know you didn't know. Similarly, you have no idea how many gays you have worked with, because if you didn't know they were gay, you wouldn't know you didn't know. So you can't tell whether a high proportion of them are narcissistic.

Why must we constantly talk about their issues and thousands of $$$ are spent on appeasing them when they are only 10% of the population? I am blonde, so my issue is that I find blonde jokes offensive and so I take issue with people who tell them. Do you get my gist? The way I see it, gay issues fit into the same category.

When they start witholding civil rights from blondes, refuse certain jobs to blondes, and splash all over the papers the revelation that some politician or pop star is blonde, as if it were a shameful scandal, then, yes, you can put blondes in the same category. I'm with you on the jokes though. I don't think jokes should be dscouraged.

And why do gays always want to talk about societies acceptance of them. Or is it possible they want all of us to become like them? Just asking.

You are not the first to ask. For some reason many straight people have this suspicion that gay people are like the aliens from Invasion of the Bodysnatchers, wanting the whole of humanity to join the Pink Swarm. I have no idea why so many people think that. It's something to do with fear, but I haven't yet worked out what. So my question would be - why does it even occur to you to ask that question? Just asking.

I think gays would do better to pick up the banner for a group in need, like disabled people, and by doing that it might help them get over themselves. If they did this my respect for them would certainly improve. In the meantime I see no purpose discussing blondes who take issue with dumb jokes or narcissistic gay issues either.

Right, let me have it.

You see, this is where your problem lies. You have lumped all gays together as narcissistic and self-serving, and as a result of that you have little respect for them - though you very generously let them know how they can improve themselves in your eyes, which I'm sure is something that they'll act on. But that tendency - to ascribe the same characteristics to an entire group of disparate people identified by only one shared attribute - that is prejudice.

Then again, I have worked and played with many South Africans and I find them often very arrogant and insensitive. In fact, my company no longer employs South Africans because of that - they're all like it. They should get over themselves.

[dizzydoll]

Similarly, you have no idea how many gays you have worked with, because if you didn't know they were gay, you wouldn't know you didn't know. So you can't tell whether a high proportion of them are narcissistic.

I do know how many, they have opened up with me extensively as far as their sexuality is concerned. I speak from direct experience as many gay guys seek answers from women.

When they start witholding civil rights from blondes, refuse certain jobs to blondes

Blondes are often exploited sexually from a very young age.. as far as I am concerned that IS a civil rights issue.

You see, this is where your problem lies. You have lumped all gays together as narcissistic and self-serving

From direct experience I find this to be true.

Then again, I have worked and played with many South Africans and I find them often very arrogant and insensitive. In fact, my company no longer employs South Africans because of that - they're all like it. They should get over themselves.

We have lived with this attitude all our lives... in fact when the apartheid regime lost the vote the whole world expected and I dare say 'hoped for' for a blood bath. It didnt happen, have you ever wondered why? Your attitude or that of those around you is not new to us and so doesnt faze us. Until you come to this country and meet its people you are just shooting hot air.

I have a lot more knowledge of gay people than you realise so please dont assume anything otherwise you make an *** out of U and ME.

My message stays the same, gays must get over themselves and pick up the banner for a higher cause.. I am not the only one with this view and its NOT only restricted to South Africa either. And by the way, I was not born here but I do chose to live here for good reason, in fact I even have a S.A passport now which I am proud of.

My 1st question stays the same. What % is the gay populace in society?

[blazeofglory]

In fact I feel that homosexuality is despised when we are too much obsessed with cultural attributes. Homosexuality in itself is not a vice. The problem is with us and with our conditioned mind. Even hetero-sex is deemed contemptible in our part of the world. Man is expected to have sex only after marriage and of course he or she has to be wedlock to enjoy this. Even after marriage one lovemaking must be confined to procreation. Acts of sex for pleasure is considered profane. But now gradually the new generation is breaking the rule and have an affair before marriage and at times outside the matrimonial tie. Homosexuality is unthinkable here and people simply cannot think about homosexuality.

What I feel is if we do not feel guilty and nothing wrong with homosexuality.
In my country people choose to go to the temple after sex or worship or pray after the act of lovemaking. Because they feel sex is an unholy act.

A great Indian mystic, named Osho wrote a book called from sex to supreme consciousness and the book raised great uproars throughout the country but the same book popularized or recognized him globally.

The same is true of homosexuality. I do not consider it bad despite the fact given the choice I am in for heterosexuality.

Maybe it is hard for me indulge in homosexuality for I was brought up in a very orthodox society. Homosexuality is often secretly a case under certain circumstances especially in boy or girl hostels wherein they share the same bed or room or heterosexuals are not available there.

I have, speaking principally, have no objection to acts of homosexuality or even asexuality