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Originally Posted by
Dark Muse
Though I do not think she wants both men in the same way, I really do not think that she has any desire, attraction to Bertie, as she even says, that she patronizes him, and has contempt for him. But at the same time, I can kind of see what Quark is saying. She wants different things form both men. She still wants her friendship with Bertie, and she wants his worldiness, his intellect and perhaps someone to share in the world of sight with her.
Yeah, but before Quark says Isabel wants both men; Q stated this:
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Bertie wants to be as intimate and sexual as Maurice can be, and Maurice wants to be as interesting and charming as Bertie. Isabel wants both men, and she wants to be a mother.
I don't think this is true at all. Maurice does not desire to be like Bertie, nor Bertie like Maurice. It may be possible Bertie would like being able to connect with women, but he does not desire to take on the role of Maurice. At least I don't see it that way at all. But then who knows. I still think to think that way is projecting too much into what they desire.
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But she wants the close intimacy that Maurice can give her as well. But I do think that she intends to keep her relationship with Bertie completely platonic.
Definitely agree......oh no, DM, we are agreeing again.;) :lol:
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And there is one point in which Bertie says:
I didn't requote that, but it is a good one to point out. I see Quark quoted the same part but with a few more lines. This passage says a great deal about Bertie.
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This seems to express that he does have the desire to form more normal and intimate relastionships, but cannot get over his anxiety to do so.
Yes, and I think he is pychologically deficient in being able to connect intimately with a woman. He wanted it but could not achieve it.
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LOL I said the ending was creepy
Yes, Dark Muse, true, you did say that it was 'creepy', but it was Pensive who said it was a surprise ending - in post #1092
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Last night, I managed to read the story. Really liked it a lot though of course it did ruin my predictions that I had created in my mind's eye. The ending was totally unexpected for me as I had not expected the two men one of whom resented the other who never let the chance of mocking him pass to be friends again. But the whole scene in the end, the start of their 'friendship' and the feelings of Bertie I guess made up the most interesting part of the story, unexpected though it might be for me. Sometimes surprises are good too.
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Originally Posted by
Quark
Well, yeah Isabel doesn't want both of them for the same reason. She's much more physically attracted to Maurice; but, let's face it, Maurice is a bit of a stick in the mud. He can hardly carry on a civil conversation for more than a few words. Bertie is the much more talkative, friendly sort of man that Isabel would like to talk to. Which would be great for Bertie except the fact that he feels emasculated by his own timidity. And, he wants to find some real intimacy. Lawrence phrases it like this:
Ok, now is you turn, Quark, sorry I did not post last night. We had a big storm here and I had to shut down early. I don't take chances after I had a modem burned out from one thunderstorm.
Yes, I would suppose that Maurice is a bit of a stick in the mud. He seems to want Isabel all to himself and he is of course somewhat insecure when she does not indulge him, giving her full attention on him. In someways it is true he acts as a child now and yet the promise of a real child entering their lives is probably a big factor in complicating the couple's life. I think normal couples feel a little uneasy at times about the approach of a third person in their marriage and the child is that addition they will have to adjust to. It will no longer be an exclusive household of just two lovers.
Yes, Bertie definitely represents to Lawrenc the other aspect of the intellectual/logical thinker, such as Lawrence's own mother. His father corresponds so much more to his father who related to life in a much more visceral/physical way.
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Maurice, in his turn, has his own problems. He wants Isabel, but she's busy being a mom and talking to Bertie.
Exactly and now he is feeling threatened to be left out of his wife's seeing world. Soon the child will share that 'seeing' world as well and so he will definitely be feeling some bit of exclusion. For now when Bertie and Isabel converse at the table he is not of their 'seeing' world. It is understandable that after a time he can't relate and therefore retreats to the barn to immerse himself in his own 'sightless' world again.
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So, concisely, that's why I'm saying there's this unhappy triangle of unfulfilled desires.
Yes, this I agree upon. But it is not a triangle that will last past the short visit of Bertie I believe, unless Bertie makes a point of coming often to see Isabel. I feel that the ending is, as Dark Muse has pointed out, scared Bertie away somewhat. I guess time will tell, and we will never know.;)
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The end is kind of creepy isn't it. The whole Bertie feeling up Maurice's eye socket was pretty weird; but, at the same time, I thought it worked to show them connecting.
It felt shocking to me. But I think that if it were an experience with a blind person I knew I would feel repulsion and shock at first, so that I think Lawrence now introducing this part into the story and so late in the story is achieving just what he intended it to achieve. He has not included the reader in the experience of being presented with something truly ugly and something which was brought about by the horror of war. Like I said before, there is an element of war in this story and yet Lawrence adeptly has not mentioned the word that I know of. He only said "Flanders" which conjures up enough horror in our minds if we have seen films/documentaries of the First World War. The shunken eye sockets and the deep scar are symbols in this story of the horror of war and it's effect on humanity. I think the writing is quite brilliant in this last part.
