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Hi Dizzy. I agree that the bit you refer to is not clear. Can I answer your question in another thread? I'll call it Self and rebirth. Another poster mentioned some ideas about Buddhism and I can respond to those too. Is this ok? I'm aware that weve strayed off topic.
Good idea Paul, then we can all learn what each others beliefs are and clear up the misconceptions that arise from the differences. Cos after all, we will probably find every poster has their own ideal of what spiritual growth and spiritual progress is.
When we die we all become potatoes. To prove this I give you the fact that when a human dies, somewhere a potato germinates. There is also the conciousness of the potato, which is remarkably similar to that of the human. They are known to suffer from many similar neurosis, such as bipolar disorder and obsessive compulsive disorder, though their physical capacity limits the display of these.
You may then ask 'what happens when a potato dies?'
The answer is simple. They can become such things as the majestic Ccptilst of PSR 1257+12 if their behavior as a potato was good or as a 'chicken' at a Kentucky Fried Chicken farm if their behavior was bad.
They have found the link after all - Mr and Mrs Potato Head.Quote:
Originally Posted by MrRegular
Sorted.:conehead:
Paul,Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulclem
I think Dizzy and I both have a certain understanding that we are trying to share with you.. which goes all the way back to Plotinus even! That everything has a source... etc. And you underestimate us! I don't mean to underestimate you, you have your own life and your thoughts which have an immeasurable value.
Let me try to say it one more way. Think about it this way. Just for a moment, humour me.
Your mind is light. Your eyes are light.
Your face is light, your teeth are light, your skin is light, and your body and consciousness and heart are light. Your thoughts are light.
As Lama Surya Das said, "The secret of Buddhism is that enlightenment can be experienced even within samsara; that even the shadows themselves are light."
Consider this... and consider - what is there? Is there any experience, any consciousness, awareness, dimension, which is to this (our normative) dimension as this awareness is to sleep? This is precisely what Buddhism teaches. And no - it isn't as emphasized in Theravada Buddhism as it is in Mahayana, nor is it in Mahayana as much as it is in Vajrayana. And yes, Vajrayana Buddhism is a secret teaching which it is necessary to have a teacher in a lineage to learn.
But I would use Kenneth Inada's words at the beginning of The Range of Buddhist Ontology
http://www.questia.com/PM.qst?a=o&d=95263941Quote:
The perception of the nature of reality in Buddhism is a consequence of the
Buddha's original enlightenment. Failure to recognize this fact has caused
many problems in the understanding of Buddhism. Many take the enlighten-
ment to be strictly a private affair and will skirt around it and not involve it in
any discussion, especially within the framework of other doctrines and princi-
ples of Buddhism. This is simply a gratuitous gesture and serves no purpose at
all. For the greatest gift of the Buddha, after all, is his enlightenment and the
exposition he gave of it.
I can tell you of my own experiences, though I cannot speak of Dizzy's. I can tell you what I saw, which, when I saw it, carried with it the imperative never to forget it! And then to tell others - that no matter what, there is never a reason to doubt, worry, fear, or grieve. That there is a deathless or infinite peace. The experience of this peace is like experiencing reality, and upon realizing one's nature, of the mind, or the self (as you wish!!!), it is like waking up from a dream.
So, so many people, several on here say that to say that this life is an illusion is a negating of it! And they will press this so much it seems like emotionalism to me. But if it is true, then it's pretty important.
Now Paul I hope you will always have more success in your spiritual life than you could ever have imagined. Don't doubt me to say that you can achieve this. When I said that there's no reason ever, ever to doubt, worry, fear or grieve, remember that Buddha's have a fearlessness, a fierce side as well! Buddhas after all do battle with and kill demons... in today's day it's mostly demons of delusion than a real live demon...
Now - as to self... perhaps I should post this on another thread, but I don't want to engage you on too many fronts. It seems to me like you are debating these and using quotes about Buddhist ontology and philosophy because you were convinced by it, which is good. Because it's a very good ontology and ground from which to proceed. It's amazing that people hold many views which are false. (Just like Descartes admitted.) And Buddhism has attained a lot. But you should not have any fixed ideas. Even if you have accepted an abstract idea of Buddhism as being closer to truth than the abstract ideas of modern secular ontology, which when you examine them do reveal themselves to bear no weight at all; even so, you should not have fixed ideas. There are many poems about this. Direct experience of reality is one thing - it is enlightenment. Everything is word jumbles and games which don't serve to much purpose... although they are necessary convulsions along the path to understanding.
I would urge you to really consider two things; one is the idea of non-duality, and it means. What is the range of your existence? Non-duality means that self and other are not dual, as well as other dualities. It means that when you experience pain, you are the pain, the experiencer of it, and the giver of it. However this is only an abstract idea and construct, it is not the same thing as experience, or feeling, of the unity of self and other, or self and universe. Yes it is true that self may be empty, but if you hang yourself up on this single word every time someone uses it to express a thought, you may miss what wisdom is behind the words.
The idea of non-duality, as we speak of it, is an abstract. Yet it is also something which may be experienced.
Now as to whether Heaven is real, I would ask you to go back again to what I said, that you are light - your consciousness, your eyes, your mind, your body, heart, and face, are all light. This is akin to the scripture called Prajna Paramitam Hrdaya, it is far more akin than you realize - the statements that "There is no eye, no consciousness," etc. In other words saying that there is no consciousness, no eye, no body, etc. There is not - but there is only as a dream-body, etc.
If your consciousness is light - and I do ask you to find a better definition if there exists one - then is it not possible for you to experience infinite (deathless) peace? Indeed it is, and this is the essential core of Buddhism. This is merely all I wish to say. And yet it is a pretty shocking or unbelievable implication. I say the follow-up as well - that this life is a dream, an illusion; in relation to experience of reality, which one can infinite peace, this life of duailty is a hey-day, even if it seems great and peaceful (may it so be.)
In the end I will not fight or argue or engage with you but retreat to within my own walls, where I am comforted by the near presence of hearts who love me absolutely, as I love them. If you have seen what I have seen, you would not be afraid of love as restricting one to remain in samsara; you would know the peak of perfect enlightenment to be so distant yet also so near - because again, the only separation, the only walls, are illusions, in other words, nothings. Again, the only separation between you, and anyone, from reality, is nothing. This seems like a redundancy, yet it's rather important. The best life and health are gained when one strives for the highest ideals with all of one's being. And love is a very real part of that, and it does indeed go beyond samsara.
I have more to say but I have neglected actually writing to a very dear friend to write this to you, so I should go now, also as it is so long.
I can just tell you; Heaven is real, and it can be attained, but helping others is really heaven, not experiencing of bliss for oneself.
And forget whatever I said... about my being reserved about you - I know you will not criticize my experiences or feelings. I just have seen some very ugly things come out of people's heads on here before... Please forgive me for before but I do trust you and know you are a very good person.
Thanks
If there's one thing that truly frightens me beyond all rational explanation, it's afterlife. I don't want heaven or hell or your purgatory. Let me die when I die; once and forever. No rebirth, no endless cycles of life and death. End! Let death be the end of everything. Let this biological machine rest after a tiresome involuntary tour.
At least Paul, we know... you and I... that we are on the right track. And we have a whole life-time to put things in perspective to whatever we are most comfortable with and in finding the true nature of life.
Remember these words: "I want never gets". lol. But seriously there is nothing to be afraid of Satan. Its our perception that frightens us most:Quote:
Originally Posted by Satan
As long as the world and humanity is progressing, there will always be plenty good on the way... all one needs to do is open ones eyes to see it.Quote:
Men are disturbed not by things
that happen,
but by their opinion of the things
that happen.
Epictetus
I know what you mean. Buddhist writings talk of two extremes annihilation and the survival of a soul. The Buddhist view is that there is no permanent soul and so no survival of personality. The karmic impetus takes a being to their next reincarnation, which may be fortunate of unfortunate. So the state of mind at death is seen as very important.Quote:
Originally Posted by Satan
It's not a comfortable or idealistic view, but scary. There are lots of other beings any of us might become if we don't manage to control our negativity. The only good thing about it is that there are paths to escape this. As there's no God/ creator idea - then it's down to the individual.
I'm only putting the Buddhist view. :biggrin5:
I agree with this 100% Paul, but its not difficult to keep a good state of mind, its really very very simple... control your thoughts to only see the beauty in all life. Be "aware" of your thoughts and if something negative pops into your mind, immediately replace it with something pleasant. Enjoy your day. http://serve.mysmiley.net/winking/winking0066.gifQuote:
Originally Posted by Paulclem
I'm glad you find it easy but I don't think this is true for most people. It's very easy to say what to do, but it takes training just to count the breaths. As for controlling the fear of death and coping with pain and illness - that's something else.Quote:
Originally Posted by dizzydoll
Don't think there's no place for Buddhist idealism. Buddhism speaks of a reality which is to our mind inconceivable, for it is beyond the realm of our perception of the universe (which is based on I and other). The Buddhist reality is that of unity and oneness. Buddhist nature is that within us which is beyond everything else; and being beyond everything else it includes everything else. Including everything else, it must be the source, because the source is the only form which includes all others. As soon as one gets close enough to the source, one realizes, "I am the same as the source." Since the source is where you came from, it is who you are. When you say "I am" something, the "I am" is what everything in the universe came from. In Buddhist reality every individual has an influence on the world, and so they are co-creator. Each of us contain all of our own reality within our hands; with a gesture of the hand I change the whole universe. This is why the Buddhist scriptures describe of infinite heavens and pure lands. A Buddha can travel to any of them, and create any of them, with no effort, and no time given.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulclem
Mathematics comes to us and tells us the same thing; that the universe is an infinite fractal. You cannot division off any "part" because if you view a "part" you view the whole pattern repeated again. This is why we are the same as the energy of the universe, as are our cells. And as we are the highest of conscious beings on this planet (to some extent and in many respects), we have a greater degree of control over the energy in the universe than any other being on our planet. When we can see that the higher evolution toward which we should strive for is for us to live in perfect harmony with our environment, taking as little as possible and necessary, and caring for the rest of earth as our main concern; and then living happily in families or whatever we chose to do.
This is the highest form we can achieve on this planet; we can chase our dreams and chase eternity from a secondary priority, first we attian equilibrium in our living on the planet, then we try to make the world as wonderful as possible.
Buddhism is idealist in the very definition of the word, as it posits that this ideal utopia is possible; and tells us it is beyond what we can even imagine it could be. It tells us it is possible, and even possible now. Buddhism in fact teaches us to focus on the present moment, the momentary, though not as a permament escape, but as a way of improving our focus.
I agree that Buddhism is a very positive religion -and it has the highest idealism at it's core - to release the countless sentient beings from samsara.
The here and now aspect in Budhism is also very important. It is designed to deal with the problems humans have in an incremental way. People's suffering is often self inflicted as they are afflicted by the three poisons - hatred, attachment and ignorence. It teaches first to deal with the obvious faults - anger for example - with the antidote patience. Then it encourages the practitioner to begin to interact better with the people and circumstances in their environment - loving kindness- and to begin to cherish the people around. The next stage is to devote oneself to all beings.
Each of us contain all of our own reality within our hands; with a gesture of the hand I change the whole universe.
The problem is the realisation of the potential within a human life. The myriad probems individuals face make it difficult to realise. Buddhism is idealistic, but it is also realistic.
For example it recognises that the right conditions for a human have to be present before any practice can be done - these conditions are: a functioning mind/ body; living in a place where there is freedom to practice the Dharma; living wthout war; being wealthy enough to have the leisure time to practice; and having enough wealth/ food etc to sustain oneslf. Without these conditions even as a human - it is difficult to achieve anything.
That's interesting. Keep working for all our benefit. :) Keep up the good work.
I think the conversation has been very useful for me in organising my thoughts.Quote:
Originally Posted by NikolaiI
:biggrin5:
The group of Buddhists I meet and I have started a new study group, where we are studying Lama Yeshe's texts. It's been really good so far.