I had updated the end of that message while you were typing. Please read what you missed Nikolai....
I had updated the end of that message while you were typing. Please read what you missed Nikolai....
Last edited by dizzydoll; 05-07-2010 at 06:05 AM.
Originally Posted by dizzydoll
It is wrong to live in the past, we must learn to live in the present NOW. Also I dont know if its our responsibility to show others anything, each of us has our own guiding Light to trust and follow.
As the Atheist said, this is a naive view. Many people suffer extremely for many reasons, and these can be through war, poverty, illness, mental problems, loss of jobs, relationships etc. What relief will this view be to someone in a war zone for example? As for the guiding light - where is it? What is it and why don't we all follow it?
Was not Buddha’s last words "Be lamps unto yourselves"?
They were - in the context that you should check out the teachings and not follow them with blind faith. He wasn't saying go and make it up for yourself because he had found a valid path where many before him had not.
You are correct, you have no clue what I have learned, and to my knowledge, I havent missed any opportunities and I havent ignored any part of my life either.
Yes - in reference to your last bit about debate - I'm interested in people's opinions on this thread and mean no offense. I will disagree with you if think it valid - particularly about topics I know more about.
I believe that I chose my life and my lessons before I was born and I believe everyone else did the same. I have suffered also like everyone else. But are all these points reason to not enjoy the aspects of heaven in which I choose to live?
How does it work then? It's a nice thought, and I have heard similar thoughts in Spiritualist churches, but some people choose very horrible lives. Why would they do that? Some people as choose very negative lives serial killers, rapists, murderers, drug dealers, addicts etc etc. How does that work?
As far as reincarnation is concerned there are many different divisions of Buddhism, some dont believe our souls return to earth and others do.
Buddhists are remarkably consistent in their views about the main teachings. The apparent differences are often cultural with different approaches, but the teachings are the same. Buddhists do not admit the prescence of a soul. We are empty of inherent existence - no soul. I think this shows a partial knowledge of Buddhism as it is a key aspect.
I came back to add, every single human being has things they can appreciate. The sooner they concentrate on those, the sooner joy returns and where else is joy but in Heaven.
If only this were true Dizzy. Yes we all appreciate the good things hopefully, but there is no stronger truth than that suffering will return. This is also a key teaching of The Buddha. We live in Samsara, and it is our Karma to experience the suffering of birth, ageing, sickness and death. The richest, luckiest, happiest person in the world will experience this, and at the point of their death will suffer as much, maybe more than the poorest person, becase they are loosing so much. The transience of our happiness is a fact of our lives.
I try to keep happy though.
Pardon me asking - If heaven is real, physical and solid - then where is it?
How do humans who have died fit in? Do they regain their old body - as some Christians assert, or is it a new body?
if you accept that Adam is the origin of our species , the very idea comes from God not human and inherited from Adam to his descendants
But the original article points to the development of the idea of heaven at a particular time in history. Why wasn't the idea of heaven, as conceived by the modern person, explained earlier?
You see this is why its not recommended to discuss religion in polite company. I will try for the last time to get my point across, if after that you dont get it... then its simply not your time. I can do no more, so I will not return to this thread.
As I said before, irrespective of the difficulties we face [war, poverty] we have that much more to appreciate if we only open our eyes to see. You say further on in your post that we hopefully appreciate and there is the key... most people DONT stop to appreciate what they have got. Most people only focus on what they want, they dont stop to smell the roses until old age. If you dont believe me there is more than enough poems and stories to back my case.
Most people dont appreciate their eyesight, hearing etc. Now if they began to be grateful rather than always wanting then their lives would vastly improve in the present moment and thats all we have Paul. Suffering is a function of the past, there is no getting away with it. But then how could you ever know this until you try? But you wont try, because you already believe you've got the answers.
Lets put it a different way, if I chose to only focus on the suffering in my life then I would sooner die. So its a case of each to their own. As long as I know that Nikolai and I are in agreement, his is the only opinion that matters to me.. you forget he was born into the Eastern spirituality and culture and he has an excellent understanding of Buddhism as well as other Spiritual philosophies.
From what I have witnessed throughout my life, people from the West often dont understand interpretations of many Eastern Beliefs Systems... like this one of Buddha for example: As far as Buddha's last words "Be lamps unto yourselves"? are concerned I interpret them exactly as those 4 words were intended... I am not going to add words into his mouth as you have done. But hey, if you and Atheist are on the same page I certainly will not interfere.
Underestimating my abilities again I see, like I said before... if Nikolai had said I was naive in my beliefs on Eastern Philosophies then I would have been offended. But he is too gentle to say anything like that, as he would rather provide guidance. But its not necessary in this case cos if you look back on the comments you will see he agrees with my posts. But more to the point regarding the quote above, you can NOT know any better than anyone until the day you die. All that we read was written by man and so those texts are just man-made concepts... for sure no one can know more, but our personal Light guides us to a timely understanding.I will disagree with you if think it valid - particularly about topics I know more about.
The rest of your post shows you have much to learn and dont really understand the most basic purpose for our Souls reincarnated. Its obviously not your time to grasp the depths of life's meaning yet. There is nothing wrong with this, we are all on a different rung on the treadmill of our own making and understanding and I do not profess to know everything either [indeed thats impossible]. If you read through previous comments of mine and Nikolai's, I believe it might become clearer with regard to the purpose of reincarnation.
And again, I learn more from those born into Eastern cultures than I do from anyone in the West on mattes of spiritual growth and understanding.
I feel this is the wisest approach.
Last edited by dizzydoll; 05-07-2010 at 05:02 AM.
I think it would be best if there were really a hell, but no heaven - so then the reward for being good would be oblivion, and the avoidance of eternal damnation. It'd be interesting to see how many theists would sign up for that deal.
Underestimating my abilities again I see, like I said before...
No this is babel again.I mean subjects I Know more about myself - not subjects I know more about than you do. The only thing I can comment on is where you assert something which I think is incorrect - but I usually will only correct if it concerns Buddhism, which I practice.
Anyway, back to the issue.
My old Uncle may well be able to smell the roses, but he is much more concerned with his diabetes and the sores that won't heal on his legs. There are lots of examples of immediate suffering, but it goes much deeper than that. Everything is suffering - even our perception of happiness - according to the standard Buddhist view. This is not at all unconventional and was in fact the subject of The Buddha's first teaching to his fellow ascetics after his enlightenment.
I do think your assetion about what most people do or don't do is somewhat unfounded. How do you know?
people from the West often dont understand interpretations of many Eastern Beliefs Systems
This is true. Buddhism is the perfect example. I have not seen much understanding of Buddhism on this forum.
The rest of your post shows you have much to learn and dont really understand the most basic purpose for our Souls reincarnated. Its obviously not your time to grasp the depths of life's meaning yet. There is nothing wrong with this, we are all on a different rung on the treadmill of our own making and I do not profess to know everything either [indeed thats impossible]. If you read through previous comments of mine, I believe it might become clearer.
I do understand the Buddhist perspective on this, and souls don't figure. It is another exzample of people not understanding Buddhism. As for other systems, well I couldn't say.
As far as Buddha's last words "Be lamps unto yourselves"? are concerned I interpret them exactly as those 4 words were intended... I am not going to add words into his mouth as you have done. But hey, if you and Atheist are on the same page I certainly will not interfere.
But are you really sure about that Dizzy? He addressed those words to his heart disciples who were practising Buddhists. It means find The Path yourself - and he meant the path he had traversed before them. He did not mean go out and make it up as you see fit, otherwise the transmission from the Buddha would not be in the form that it is now - a valid transmission from the Buddha.
But again, I learn more from those born into Eastern cultures than I do from anyone in the West on mattes such as spiritual growth and understanding. I feel this is the wisest approach.
Me too.
Interesting take, but probably unpopular.
Thank you Nikolai, I came back to respond to your comment. We are not put on earth to FIX anyone, and we cannot take away their pain. Everyone has their own cross to bear, all we can do is be compassionate and supportive by listening to them... not telling them what to do.Interesting. I've never heard that or thought of it that way, but I am glad you shared it with me. Thank you.
And no-one can FIX our circumstances only we can do that. We are not responsible for them and they are not responsible for us. Karma is a bastard but it has to be paid, its good philosophy to remember that. Most of us do learn our lessons, if not... well, we'll have to die to find out. lol.
I thought readers might enjoy this to add a bit of fun to what seems a serious topic:
Heaven is Where:
The Police are British,
The Chefs are Italian,
The Mechanics are German,
The Lovers are French and
It's all organized by the Swiss.
Hell is Where:
The Police are German,
The Chefs are British,
The Mechanics are French,
The Lovers are Swiss and
It's all organized by the Italians.
Just got to love it...........
Last edited by dizzydoll; 05-07-2010 at 08:53 AM.
Hi Blaze - I think I missed responding to you. It is clear that some people experience mental hell - see locals with mental health concerns. We can see ths on earth.
What about heavenly states of mind though? Do we have those states on earth? We do experience bliss of various kinds, but is this heaven?
Heaven is the nearest thing to INFINITE LOVE.`
How does it work though? Is it with a spiritual body or a human body, or is it a kind of bliss state?
You can see my thoughts in two previous posts...
I already know you disagree with all my ideas Paul.
OK - I looked back. I'd read them but it was a while ago.
I don't disagree with your ideas/ beliefs Nik. I might take issue with assertions about Buddhism that I don't think are right, but I don't intend to criticise your own beliefs. I was just asking, as I've been asking other posters.
No worries.
I cannot contain myself I have to share with you Paul. I hope this makes it clearer because this is where I feel our misunderstanding lies.
This comment of yours is simply not true, especially what you state in bold. I provide a link below to confirm my point. But even so, I dont believe Buddhism has all the answers anyway. Just as science makes new discoveries after some theories die, so I believe is the case with "belief systems", i.e. after we put our current life to death, so our Soul moves on to new discoveries. This means neither science nor religion have all the answers yet.
Please read this link which outlines the Souls Birth and Rebirth according to Buddhist philosophy.
Karma and Rebirth
I have included bits and pieces of its message in this post but please read the entire link, its only one page long. Of course there are other links within the site to Table of Contents but this link deals with:
There are many other links which provide similar information but I think this one rules your quote, which I placed at the beginning of this post, as null and void. Because you love Buddhism Paul, I am sure you will enjoy the rest of this website... its really very imformative, just your cuppa tea!. Have a wonderful day without suffering, just let it go, be it yours or contemplation of others.The wheel of life, or "samsara", is an ancient symbol that has the same meaning in Buddhism and Hinduism. It is symbolises the cycle of birth, life, and death. When one revolution of the wheel is completed, life begins again with rebirth.
Rebirth.
Buddhists hold that the retributive process of karma can span more than one lifetime. Rebirth has always been an important tenet in Buddhism; and it is often referred to as walking the wheel of life (samsara). It is the process of being born over and over again in different times and different situations, possibly for many thousand times.
As long as there is delusion, greed, and aversion, and as long as passions are not extinguished, we generate karma. Because we eventually accumulate unmaterialised karma, there is a next lifetime in which the accumulated karma will take form. Only when all accumulated karma is realised and the generation of new karma is calmed, one can enter the stream that leads to Nirvana. This process continues until Nirvana is reached, which signifies the cessation of rebirth and, hence, the end of suffering.
It is notable that this also entails the avoidance of "good karma". Once the stream that leads to Nirvana is entered, creating wholesome karma is not an object anymore. Although wholesome karma leads to entering the stream, it does not necessarily lead to Nirvana, only the extinguishment of all karma leads to Nirvana.
What is reborn if not the "self"?
If the idea of non-self sounds odd, then it must sound even more curious that non-self can be reborn. There is a seeming contradiction between the canon of rebirth and that of the non-self, which even many Buddhists find difficult to understand. The contradiction is, however, only on the surface and can be solved if one pictures the self as the result of karmic formation. This can be put into less abstract words:
If we imagine the world as an ocean, we are like the ripples on the ocean. Formations like ripples and waves occur, because of wind, tides, and other kinetic forces. In the Buddhist analogy, the universe is in motion due to karmic forces. A ripple, a wave, or a billow may seem as an individual entity for a moment, creating the illusion that it has a self, but it is gone in the next moment. The truth is that all individuals are one. A ripple is a temporary phenomenon; it is just water in motion. We know that kinetic energy causes wave forms on a body of water and it would be ridiculous to say that a single ripple or wave has a self.
Similarly, in case of beings, the process of coming into life and being conditioned in a particular way is caused by karmic forces. The up and down of the ocean's waves corresponds with the rotation of the wheel of life. The sea that surges, falls, and resurges, is the life that is born, dies, and is reborn again. It is therefore obvious that we should not focus on the temporary phenomenon of the wave, but on the force that causes, forms, and drives it. Nothing else is said, although in more practical terms, in the Eightfold Path.
Last edited by dizzydoll; 05-09-2010 at 05:10 AM.
Buddhists do not admit the prescence of a soul. We are empty of inherent existence - no soul.
Is what I said and what you quoted.
This is from the website that you linked.
The Buddhist concept is subtly different from the classical Indian understanding, because it denies the existence of a self or a soul.
and
The body is mortal and when it dies, all mental activities cease. That is why there is no soul. The idea of soul is simply an extension of the self; in fact it is an immortal version of the self that supposedly survives physical death. Buddhism denies the existence of such an entity. Instead, what we call self is just a stream of consciousness that draws identity from concepts and memories, all of which are impermanent.
I'm sorry Dizzy, but I don't see where it contradicts what I said on the website. Could you clarify?
It looks like the website is contradicting itself then unless its just their expression which we seem to be misinterpreting. You have to agree with this at least after reading what I have posted from the same site. As I said to you before, Buddhism doesnt work for me but let me try to understand the passages you have outlined.
Possibly what they mean by this is:
because it denies the existence of a self or a soul.
Well we all know the "self" in its present form does exist because we are evidence of it, so I have no clue why that statement was made except... possibly... they mean just that "in its present form", which is just as my personal spiritual awareness leads me to believe, that WE are NOT this present "mortal self or current soul" we are in fact an Old Soul or an Immortal Soul who returns in reincarnation as per the rest of this website states. What other reason can there be for it, because the website makes reference to Rebirth and Karma often in connection with reincarnation into new lives to cleanse bad karma? It could mean that they are classifying the mortal "self" and "soul" as the same thing.
The idea of soul is simply an extension of the self; in fact it is an immortal version of the self that supposedly survives physical death.
Taken from your post. Again it looks as if this website is coupling the "mortal self" and the "current soul" as one and the same thing. And then when I look at that bolded bit, it can just as well read that "the immortal self survives physical death" which is accurate as I believe the immortal Old Soul never dies, which fits with my personal spiritual understanding. Energy never dies it only changes form.
Its ambiguous, but please explain to me then... why in the areas I have quoted on this thread and in other areas on the site they consistently bring up: "It is the process of being born over and over again in different times and different situations, possibly for many thousand times." in different ways? Thats of more interest to me than this small piece of ambiguity that you have managed to dig up. It could even mean that the person writing for the website might not have mastered the English language sufficiently to understand that what they have written has come across as contradictory. In fact all the material I have ever read in regard to Buddhism refers to reincarnation to cleanse karma's.
Who knows, it looks again that there a divisions in Buddhism, but considering that a lot of their beliefs stem from Hinduism then that could just be their twist to show the difference between Buddhism and Hinduism. As I told you before, I dont follow one single belief system, I follow whatever I am comfortable with and in my minds-eye there is no purpose to life unless there is reincarnation to improve our disposition.
Last edited by dizzydoll; 05-09-2010 at 07:05 AM.
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