Eh? Your location is Aussie, or are you just born here in NZ?Quote:
Originally Posted by limajean
There are actually more NZers here using this site than I thought. Great stuff kiwis:D
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Eh? Your location is Aussie, or are you just born here in NZ?Quote:
Originally Posted by limajean
There are actually more NZers here using this site than I thought. Great stuff kiwis:D
Born and raised in NZ, moved to aus
Are you pakeha? I never met a pakeha or any NZer that have a Buddhist background. Interesting.
Indeed i am :] - i posted photos of me in the general chat forum, the photoalbum section.
But yes i am.
When i was much younger, both my mother and i used to go to teachings just outside of auckland. As ive gotten older, ive sort of..been a bit slack. Its part of my resolutions to pick it up.
Some one said that you were a "he" and I got confused since your avatar was a photo of a girl and at first I suspected it was you. Nice photos, I didnt know people uploaded pictures of themselves here.
I think you should continue building and developing your spiritual state as a Buddhist no matter what, as I believe there is nothing better in the world then being a strong, pure spirit.
I do the same, i instantly assume many people on this board are males, i have no idea why :\ i even thought you were, despite the fact your avatar was a girl too.
I guess its the way many people express themselves - can be quite strong, not meaning to sound sexist or anything.
Lord, i just dug a hole..
Thank you :)
It is really strange how people first assume a user talking to them is a male..Did you know that there is a significant statistics in this forum that there are more females than males? And that in every country females outperform males in literacy, reading comprehension, and I am not being sexist either:lol:
Could I ask you how old you are? I also assumed that people aged more than 30 used this site but it looks like most are around 16~25, accounding to the polls.
Yes, I do.Quote:
Originally Posted by skasian
It's been shown time and time again that "miracles" in church are fake, while none have been shown to be true.
In the lack of reputable evidence to the contrary, I must presume fakery.
I believe you've been tricked or lied to, but I will also note that people are awful eyewitnesses. This is nothing against you personally, but it's again demonstrable that people seeing exactly the same event will report it vastly differently to each other.Quote:
Originally Posted by skasian
But it can be seen.Quote:
Originally Posted by skasian
The parts of the brain which work to create what we call love are well known and it can be seen working in scans of the brain, so I'm quite comfortable with it being a human construct based upon existeing instinctual traits.
I"m quite sure you're not faking personally, because I know what the human brain is capable of. I'm quite sure it's very real to you.Quote:
Originally Posted by skasian
You missed the point - it's not what Benny Hinn does from a religious perspective, it's because he's a proven fraud.Quote:
Originally Posted by skasian
His act is carried out with people with pretend illnesses and paid volunteers who pretend to go into a trance.
My point was that your church, which will be of relatively recent formation, believes in something which the vast majority of christianity do not. I find it odd that organisations which arose in the past few decades still use theology which was renounced by that vast majority many years ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by skasian
It's quite obvious that some people want to believe in eternal punishment.
In the case of medical journals, respectabuility is gained by the quality of its writing, the depth of its checking and the reliability of the organisation which runs it. In this way we have magazines like Lancet and the New England Medical Journal which are internationally accepted as being at the peak of medical science.Quote:
Originally Posted by dzebra
Nope; exactly the opposite, in fact.Quote:
Originally Posted by dzebra
It is because some things were unknown that we now have cures for those diseases. If a doctor discovers a new ailment, the journal will draw attantion to the fact that we don't know, and other doctors will be able to watch for and study the ailment.
That is one of the prime tasks of medical journals - to let people know about the unknowns.
Wrong again, sorry.Quote:
Originally Posted by dzebra
The thing is, medical miracles would be so easy to prove, because doctors keep very precise records.
If what we are told about church miracles was true, there would be a flood of cases every week going to their doctor and shouting "I'm cured!"
Where are they?
Isn't it just odd how those cured people will stand up and tell their church congregation they're cured, but they never tell their doctors?
No. With seven billion people on the planet - that's 7,000,000,000, some 15 times the population of USA, or 300 times Australia's - the occasional coincidence is bound to happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by dzebra
No.Quote:
Originally Posted by dzebra
See the above numbers - if 1 in 1000 survives an operation and 10,000 operations take place annually, around 10 will survive.
Pure chance, nothing more.
I'd have to ask the family of the dead donor if they thought it was a miracle designed to save someone else's life before I answered that.Quote:
Originally Posted by dzebra
You should attend a Buddhist temple at some stage - there are thousands of palagi Buddhists in NZ.Quote:
Originally Posted by skasian
Please don't take offence, but you are clearly lacking in perspective on other religions - your entire knowledge seems to be someone else's interpretation of one book.
I dont mind if you do think it is fake, but when you feel and see it for yourself, you can never describe it as fake. You may hear from me and think it is fake, but personally, as I encountered myself, as the miracles or supernatural happened to me, to my body, it is impossible for me to say it is fake. When something else controlling me and my speech, and having life of its own, I cant see it as fake. It is like saying to myself I am fake, which I know is impossible. Yes I have heard from many non believers that its part of psychology and that the brain can trick our emotions and body functions. But what I saw my own open wound being closed in matter of seconds is not psychology or trickery of the brain. Gold dusts forming from my palm was not psychology as it is impossible for our body substances to make gold. Some one said people around the world have been across similar miracles, where rubies start forming on palms and head, I seen some in youtube, and because I can relate, I cant see it as fake. Benny Hinn or people uploading videos on youtube, as they are spreading the Word of Jesus, I cant say anything about that, fake or not, let God take judgement on them. God blesses the truthful people that work hard for Him whereas punishes thoes who are fake and full of trickery. That is what I believe in. I dont want to accuse people of fakery, I just want God to deal with them individually.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Atheist
About other sectors of Christianity that doesnt not believe in hell, I believe that believing whether hell exists or not is unimportant for Christians. This is because Christians believe that when we believe and love Jesus, we will be accepted to Heaven, therefore Hell should be no factor for us therefore whether it exists or doesnt, it doesnt matter. However methodist or psbyterian, I believe that a realm of Hell does exist that does punish people that doesnt love God. The point is, believing in hell or not, it does not affect our belief in God.
Actually, being active in this forum, I have been learning and gaining perspectives of other religions and finding it intriguing. My knowledge of Christianity is not overall built by the bible, as it is also built on daily experiences and spiritual encounters with God. Some life issues and problems have made me closer to God and it helped me to understand Him better.
Whether someone else believes in your miracle has no bearing on the reality if it is real or not, the facts would still be truth whether or not a single person believes them. Facts are funny things, they are what they are whether we agree with them or not.
I have both experienced miracles and seen them for others, so in my mind it is settled based on experience.
Hell is actually an easy concept to understand, it is judgement and justice at a level much higher than the realm we are answerable to now. This life we now live is finite but it is regulated by the infinite so that whatever we choose to believe here now will not change the course set by the infinite. God is infinite, I am finite, so I realise He sets the rules and I abide by them.
Simple beyond belief really:cool:
Hey I am so happy someone appreciates God's almighty power:)Quote:
Originally Posted by Rozzy
And thank you for your views in hell, I completely concur with you.
I've seen exactly what you've seen, up close and personal, several times.Quote:
Originally Posted by skasian
Seen nothing to impress me so far. A stage-hypnotist show, nothing more.
As I have said many times, the human brain is a fascinating thing and it's easy to be tricked into thinking you're experiencing external stimuli when you are not. I'm sure it's all quite real, but not quite the same reality that you see.Quote:
Originally Posted by skasian
No irony in your god making gold dust as a miracle for you while he lets children die in agony....Quote:
Originally Posted by skasian
Quite right.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rozzy
It's just quite funny that some people will claim things as factual when they are clearly not.
Doubled
It is quite funny some will discredit the claims of others without any basis at all other than they do not believe it. Which you are free to do because it does not undo the healing that has already taken place. If I believe and am healed what do I care if someone else does not believe it, I am still healed and not injured by your unbelief.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rozzy
Hey I am so happy someone appreciates God's almighty power
And thank you for your views in hell, I completely concur with you.
tzohorayeem toveem
God is good,
Rozzy
No. Everyone first goes to ''court'' - no matter is it Hitler, Stalin, Mother Theresa or Karol Wojtyla. Everyone will be judged by his acts and won't be dealed equally.Quote:
Originally Posted by JacobF
Wrong. Hitler used religion to fool fools and he made it. Humans will generally stand stronger behind something what is blessed and he used it.Quote:
Originally Posted by blazeofglory
But in what part of heaven?Quote:
Originally Posted by The Atheist
Where did you read that? Good people won't go to hell. Why would lousy Christian be better then good Muslim or Jew?Quote:
Originally Posted by limajean
He gave us free will; we made the rest. And we made it pretty bad, I guess.Quote:
Originally Posted by limajean
Who said that? If some Christian said it to you, he is wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by limajean
You're not punished for using it; you will be punished for using it in wrong purposes.Quote:
Originally Posted by limajean
No, that's not true.Quote:
Originally Posted by Son of Tiamat
First part is quoted from OT, and second from NT. And Christians believe in NT because Jesus corrected OT in more then few occasions. Jews live by OT, not Christians.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Atheist
Doctors saw it, and then they just disappeared. I am not a doctor so I can't say how did it happen, but it did happen. Problem is probably that doctors aren't sure what happened, so what can they say? And why would necessary science have an answer for everything?Quote:
Originally Posted by The Atheist
Nobody should deny it. Jesus didn't deny it, he just corrected some issues.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Atheist
Evidence means we know what happened. How can we prove something or explain it if we don't know what happened?Quote:
Originally Posted by The Atheist
--------------------------------------
Tolstoy said: To be able to say that something unreasonable is unreasonable, you have to be very familiar and know a lot about that unreasonable issue.
Looks like a lot of doesn't know too much. Sorry.
Hmmmm. so much to mull over here. Are God's values the same as His children's the ones with free will? The reason I ask is because we spend a lifetime trying to understand God based on a book.
The thing to keep in mind, importantly, is what does being Christian mean? It means to accept Christ as one's spiritual master, more, as one's savior. Now nothing more than this needs to be said and it doesn't help to say it more. Then the only thing that matters is to live it in your life, that is, go to Christ as often as you are able. This is just my view of it. And what did Christ teach? The most important thing, he said, was to love God. The second most important thing is to love your neighbour. Now Jesus was a Jew, and so when he calls God "My Father" he is indeed talking about the God of the day, the Jewish God. Studying Judaism or Kabbalah would improve one's understanding of Christianity, I would believe.
Now back to Jesus' commandment - to love God? What on Earth does this mean? Isn't that unaccessible? Well, for me, actually, God is more accessible than Christ. God who is not just on earth but everywhere in the universe, God who does not just contian the dreams of humanity, but contains dreams and loves to an infinite extent and beauty. THAT is the God I worship. Nowadays for many people the reaction against God is the same as if someone said they were God. Now THAT is something only a rascal will do. It's the cheating propensity at work. Just as the selling of mantras or secrets about God for money is also the cheating propensity.
All of these things are actually being arranged and maintained by Maya. Maya is God's illusory potency. It keeps us unawares of God, God's name, form, qualities; heck, it even keeps us unaware of anything spiriutal at all - the soul, the spiritual realm, and all the knowledge and bliss which comes from the soul. We are not even sure if this world is a friendly or a hostile place. Well it is a quickly changing one; but truths such as Light, God, Truth are eternal and do not change from one time to another. It is said that Maya is not a bad thing, actually it is a good thing, keeping would-be devotees away from God unless they are pure.
I am glad to hear you say this. I am of the opinion that in this situation, since you and I are both operating respectfully and in a friendly manner, the best success which could be asked for is achieved. As another said if we all agreed it would be boring. My ideas are zen-like in certain aspects, but I also moved toward a sort of blending of Pure Land Buddhism, Vajrayana Buddhism as well as different aspects about it as a whole. But as you know my beliefs are not only about Buddha. I think that Buddha, or God, whatever you call it, is the nature of the universe, which is complete bliss, knowledge, and also that it is eternal. While Buddha is an acceptable name, actually I believe that Visnu is the supreme personality of Godhead. Visnu is laying in the causal ocean, etc., etc., and the entire cosmic manifestation is not created just once but it is created and destroyed unlimitedly. All of this occurs in the breathing of Visnu. I wouldn't say all of this to just anyone, but I will say it to you.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Atheist
As for Christ, remember that God said in the Bible, "Be still, and know that I am God."
This indicates that God is beyond stillness. God is beyond eternity. The only way we can know God is to come to know what eternity is. We must be still first. And also Christ is accepted as God. So Christ is beyond stillness, Christ is the peace beyond all peace. Just as in Buddhism, where the greatest enlightenment is considered to be gone, completely gone beyond all else.
I am speaking to you yes I am speaking to you of things such as the nature of Christ, and buddha-nature. The only reason you never accepted it before was because it did not make sense to you. But this is the nature of the divine, it is inconceivable. It can only make sense to you when your own existence completely makes sense to you. It only makes sense to you when you realize your nature, your true nature, is entirely peaceful! In fact, it is peaceful, blissful, it is aware, and it is eternal. This is a truth of life, and the only reason we shy away from it is because it has been misused more than any. In fact, it is only a corrupting of this truth that anything is in existence at all except for that truth. So it is inconceivable; Buddhists fall back on the idea that their religion requires no faith. I have even had a great discussion about this with Geche Dorje, an assistant to the Dalai Lama. He said, "if there is anything inconceivable, that is when I give up my robes," saying he would quit the path of the monk. But then one doesnt need to look any further than The Great Flower Ornament Sutra: "In every atom of the universe, there are oceans of world systems." What is it? It is inconceivable.
I have seen people say that Buddhists don't have a necessary idea of creation, whether it is evolution or something else; or some even say that Buddhists basically believe in evolution. They don't care about what happened in the past, only about the now. Well the thing is, some people are very interested in what is the source of all else. Yes, it may be remoted, mysterious, but it is attractive non-theless. What is it, can we know anything about it, and what is our source to it?
In my view the source of all material and spiritually worlds is the all-attractive Lord Hari. As I've explained, being the source of all, all the forms are within the source- Hari. In this case, or in my limited understanding, all are created and destroyed within the breath of the Lord. As Kabir said, God is the breath behind breath. As we breathe in air, similarly, Lord Visnu, the Supreme Lord, breathes in and out the entire cosmic manifestation, thus cyclicly annihlating and recreating it.
[edit: I just rememberd actually, I have a book of Thomas Clearly's translations and one of the books is "Entry into the Inconceivable"! So if you ever find Geche Dorje, tell him about this book and he will most likely be very pleased.]
Are there different bits?Quote:
Originally Posted by bazarov
Many cases have been investigated and lots of frauds have been found. On the other hand, no miracles have been noted, so I just go with the evidence. I find it amusing that claims of miraculous cure are made weekly by many fundie churches, but no evidence is ever forthcoming.Quote:
Originally Posted by bazarov
I have this weird idea that if any of it were actually real, we'd hear about it ver quickly, so I ignore them all until some better standards of evidence are brought through.
See above - no explanation is needed, just amedical doctor who will say, "Yesterdaym this person had a squamous cell carcinoma of the larynx. Today he does not.Quote:
Originally Posted by bazarov
Pretty simple stuff, if these cures are actually happening.
Well, just consider whether you really would hear about it. For instance there used to be electric cars, but there's a video about how the government stopped it... of course I don't wish to add conspiracy paranoia to the mix, but the example is possibly valid..Quote:
Originally Posted by The Atheist
But actually I saw a video of four Taoist masters chanting around someone with a tumor, which was on monitor, and you could see the tumor visibly decrease in size until it actually vanished. Of course this could have been invented and I never got to investigating it more but it struck me as possible.
(And I apologize for without a doubt taking the thread at least some way away from topic...)
And almost certainly not, since we know that electric cars are still not able to be built with our present technology.Quote:
Originally Posted by NikolaiI
As to whether we'd hear about genuine miracle cures, I'm confident we would, because claims are occasionally made. The bad news is, they've all been found to be mistaken or false.
I've been involved with several investigations - as an observer; I'm nobody's doctor - and it's fascinating to watch the zealots be shown where they've gone wrong. One case involved a girl whose fillings had miraculously disappeared! Amazingly enough, when the dental records of her fillings were found, it turns out that all her fillings were in her milk teeth, which had all been replaces by shiny adult ones! Problem solved, no miracle.
Like I said, I'm open to evidence being provided of miraculous cures, but anything which starts with "I saw..." isn't going to make the grade.
I must say there is no point of me explaining my beliefs and experiences to alter your perspectives about miracles or religion. Atheists like yourself needs personal experience in order to believe even though clear things of the impossible may be happening in front of their eyes. I think that atheists like yourself are skilled at finding an excuse or a supporting statement that helps them understand what they dont want to believe or not believe is false. But who wants to understand and take in things in heart the things that they dont want to believe in. No matter what people say that is obvious and true to them, the skeptic will always wiggle their way out of making sense that the obvious is unreal, untrue, or fake. Overall I think this is the ultimate difference between the religious and atheists.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Atheist
You've mentioned Dante before; so you surely know there are three parts of Heaven.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Atheist
So if science can't explain it it just didn't happen or it is fraud? No other possibilities?Quote:
Originally Posted by The Atheist
We know each other for long time :D I also think that sometimes nature does it, maybe some men is just stronger then cancer or something (it's not all on God, I guess); but there were some really unexplainable cures which happened in the moment when some priest or group of people prayed for them, like NikolaiI mentioned; and there are numerous cases like that. How to explain them? You can't blame people for blaming God; who else could they blame?Quote:
Originally Posted by The Atheist
What?!Quote:
Originally Posted by The Atheist
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_car
I think you have the wrong idea. God is not based on a book, as God is not based on His Words. God is God and His Words are there for our spiritual food. We try to follow and be like Jesus which is what we spend a lifetime achieving. His Words therefore the Bible are like guidelines that will help us to achieve our goals, not the other way around.Quote:
Originally Posted by Delta40
You may be right. Let me put this another way. Are God's values the same as His children's, the ones with free will? The reason I ask is because we spend a lifetime trying to understand God.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NikolaiI
Wow, it is intriguing how you have combined all religion aspects to one, and simplified this and outlining that it is your belief.
As you said that source of all material, spiritually worlds are the all-attractive Lord Hari, would this mean Lord Hari is a different being from Lord Visnu? Or is Lord Hari included in the Supreme Lord, therefore one?
First, I want to point out that I am not sure if every mankind is considered as His Children, but I however think we all are as we were created by Him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Delta40
Now God's values are perfect, all truthful and flawless. However as mankind is the opposite, and all mankind are unique therefore I think the sets of values are vastly diverse. So I think that mankind has different values from God as all of our values are able to be contaminated by evil. However a devoted follower of God I believe will have same values of Him because this devoted follower has the knowledge of Gods value and they will do everything in their power to maintain the same values that God has.
I think every one has freewill because every decisions are made by us. The word destiny can contradict this, but I think that destiny exists because God already knows what we are going to choose in life.
It is true that we spend a lifetime trying to understand God, I believe this is because we have a innate sense of belonging, a yearning to be loved by a higher power, the creator of our beings. Its like the innate response of an adopted child, when she or he feels the urge to find their true, biological parents. I think, deep in our spirits, we are all born with that innate response or feeling that there is a Heavenly Father that looks over us and love us. Of course it would depend on the person on how these innate response effects their belief in religion, but I do believe that is the reason why people search for God even if it means spending a lifetime to find and understand Him.
If we are all created by Him, then probably we all are His Children. Right? :)Quote:
Originally Posted by skasian
That's not matter of my opinion; merely rational conclusion.
Yes, well as I frequently tell people, I walk around with both eyes open all the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by skasian
The downside to that is that I have to look for evidence and proof and never just accept what those eyes tell me.
When something impossible happens, I'm quite sure I'll hear about it.
Yeah, but it depends whose theology you use.Quote:
Originally Posted by bazarov
Of course - the other possibility is a genuine miracle.Quote:
Originally Posted by bazarov
The things which are usually held up [by fundies] as miraculous things inside their church are:
Speaking in tongues
Laying of hands
Curing the sick.
All of these things have been studied by thousands of scientists over many years.
Speaking in tongues is a bad joke. Ask a linguist.
Laying of hands. Now, this one's quite a lot of fun, because the people are "possessed" and the demonds flee at the laying of hands. Impossibly subjective and easy to act. We know religious delusion exists - and I do mean the psychiatric illness rather than believing in god/s - and it's not too long a stretch to think that a delusional believer might actually benefit from thinking his/her demons had been excised.
Curing the sick. Where's the evidence? If the people are sick, you'd expect they've been to the doctor, right? Where are the doctors? Even in NZ, dozens of people are allegedly cured of ailments at churches every single week.
Where the hell are they?
Along with that, the identical methods and results are obtained by Benny Hinn and stage hypnotists. But the fundie church ones are real...
Yeah, right.
No evidence, clear evidence of fraud. Not much decision required.
At least the RCC are a bit more robust, with a recognised dozen or so miracles from Lourdes out of hundreds of thousands of claims. I don't trust their methodology, because it doesn't account for spontaneous remission or blinding of results, but I will at least have some respect for an organisation which uses some form of transparency in its claims of miraculous cure.
I'd like the fundies to consider the RC processes for a start. They have to include doctors' reports, it takes years for verification and recognition as a miracle has to be approved by several different people/groups before approval and admission. Fundie churches, on the other hand, do miracles every Sunday morning & afternoon and occasionally on Wednesdays.
Hell, it's human nature to look for reasons for things, which is why religion is so damned ingrained into people.Quote:
Originally Posted by bazarov
Without details, I wouldn't try to say exactly what did happen, but the closest analogy I have is that often in tragedies - earthquakes, fires, etc - survivors attribute their survival to their god. Do the families of the dead victims blame god for it? The hell they do - they sit and say "Oh, god moves in mysterious ways." God must have a great PR guy, because he gets it both ways!
As I said earlier, I've personally attended sessions where miracle cures were alleged, but it looked like cheap chicanery to me. People should go to more magic shows - much more realistic than some hacks on an altar.
In the end, this thread's a good example of claims of miracle cures by god/s - loads of claims of miraculous cures, but not one single shred of evidence.
:lol::lol::lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by bazarov
Sorry, I know they exist - there have been electric vehicles & milk carts for decades.
What I meant was an electric car of any use to anyone.
They have very limited range, take forever to charge, and are very expensive.
The technology needs a jump. The proponents were hoping that lithium batteries was it, but it's still not enough and as all there is left are refinements to technology which isn't good enough, I think we're going to need someone to invent a new battery or charging process for it to ever happen.
If they were planning on going to the church to be cured, they would not need to go to the doctor. The doctor wouldn't know.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Atheist
There are several different definitions of miracles, and I think you are using a definition like "an event that can't be explained scientifically or logically."
I have a different definition of miracle, but I can't put it into words just yet.
I do agree with you that in the present time, I have not seen any miracles by your definition, where we disagree is you seem to be saying they never happen, and I only say that I have never seen any.
If that's the case, that would be disturbing for two reasons:Quote:
Originally Posted by dzebra
One - if they're not sick enough to go to the doctor, how do we know they're sick to begin with? It also doesn't gel with people who are dying. One would presume that if someone is dying, they have probably been seen by a doctor first.
Second thing is that I would be extremely concerned if people were going to church instead of the doctor. We live in a quite sophisticated country with top-class doctors and this would be a return to witch-doctoring and as I already noted, people have been convicted for failing to provide medical care by trying prayer instead of medicine.
Well, that's the only description which matters. Certainly, there are medical miracles and miraculous escapes, but if we're talking about divine miracles, then they must be outside of science by their very nature.Quote:
Originally Posted by dzebra
Let me know how you get on!Quote:
Originally Posted by dzebra
Yep, I'm quite happy to say that they've never happened. Given that the best evidence we have of divine miracles is some flawed research and conclusions from the RCC, I will keep that opinion until some evidence is provided.Quote:
Originally Posted by dzebra
I won't say it's impossible - as with the existence of god/s - but I will go with vanishingly unlikely. A googolplex to one against is how I normally express it.
Anyone who has any sense goes to the doctor. This doesn't negiate that miracles can and do happen. I have seen this personally, but the proof would be harder to produce. Proof is a difficult thing to find in miracles.
In the case I'm thinking of, I saw a broken hand, verified by the doctor as broken that day healed. The man did go back for his check-up next day, after removing his arm restraints in my presence (his idea, not mine, I can believe in something, but I'm never foolish enough to suggest such radical matters). The doctor said the hand was healed, the doctor being unsure just how. But then some would say maybe the x-ray was misread or something of that sort, that perhaps the hand wasn't that badly injured. So proof becomes a matter or what I myself believe and the man who was healed.
I pray for people, but I don't advise them not to see a doctor. The act of healing, whether natural, medical, or by prayer could all be considered a miracle.
RCC(Roman Catholic Church, I guess)?Quote:
Originally Posted by The Atheist
Mulder and Scully once investigated similar case :lol::lol: It was fraud, lucky you..Quote:
Originally Posted by The Atheist
Agree, first part still bugs me; it just ain't right. Second; miracles have no proofs, otherwise they wouldn't be considered as miracle, more like an unusual happening (aurora borealis, eclipse etc for example).Quote:
Originally Posted by The Atheist
You misunderstood dzebra. Those people, sick or dying; had visit doctors but doctors couldn't help them. So they tried with church. And after that, some were cured. So, first doctors and science, and after that church and God. Where else could they go?Quote:
Originally Posted by The Atheist
Excellent Pen!Quote:
Originally Posted by Pendragon
Not necessarily.....Quote:
Originally Posted by bazarov
John 8:31-47
So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed in him, "If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." They answered him, "We are offspring of Abraham and have never been enslaved to anyone. How is it that you say, 'You will become free'?"
Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. I know that you are offspring of Abraham; yet you seek to kill me because my word finds no place in you. I speak of what I have seen with my Father, and you do what you have heard from your father."
They answered him, "Abraham is our father." Jesus said to them, "If you were Abraham’s children, you would be doing the works Abraham did, but now you seek to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. This is not what Abraham did. You are doing the works your father did." They said to him,"We were not born of sexual immorality. We have one Father—even God." Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me. Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a er from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies. But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me. Which one of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me? Whoever is of God hears the words of God.The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God."
"Freedom" does not mean three or more choices, and it doesn't mean you have to like either choice; it simply means you have a choice.Quote:
Originally Posted by limajean
Says who? Have you read Plato? Are you familiar with how our legal system works? Nobody has absolute, total freedom. All of us have limited freedom in order to live peaceably among each other.Quote:
Originally Posted by limajean
I have bad news for you: human beings are generally consequence-driven creatures. We are capable of altruism, but we also tend to do as we wish if there are no real consequences for our actions. As such, all of us - including you - make decisions based upon potential consequences. Many people don't smoke because they fear cancer. Many people avoid crime because they're afraid of jail. Don't expect me to believe that you think the world could operate in some way where criminals will not commit crime because of altruism. Your life is not devoid of decisions based upon consequences.Quote:
Originally Posted by limajean
Translation: "God should let me live in whatever way I please without consequence." If that cannot happen here on earth, why should God make it so in the afterlife? God cannot change reality from what it is: hell is not created as a place of hellfire and agony - it is a place that honors your choice to not live in God's presence - annihilating sinners does the opposite. So, ironically, God - in creating hell - honors your freedom to reject Him. But if you reject Him - and the universe is filled with Him (because He created it) then where can He put you to honor your wish to live without Him except by "quarantining" you in hell? God can't change the fact that without Him is only darkness, emptiness, bitterness, regret.Quote:
Originally Posted by limajean
But according to the Bible, our "good deeds" are like "filthy rags" when placed next to the utter perfection of holiness that is God. We cannot "earn" our way into God's graces by being "good." We attain salvation by accepting the gift of eternal life that Christ purchased through his death for all of us. Hell is not a destination for those who did bad things as much as it is the chosen location for those who do not wish to submit their lives to God's will.Quote:
Originally Posted by limajean
I assume your sentence up above intended the word "creatures"?Quote:
Originally Posted by limajean
It is not merely "not accepting" or "not believing" - it is the sustained and persistent refusal to acknowledge the Holy Spirit's conviction on our hearts that God is our creator. He created us - therefore He has a right to call his creations to Him; refusing to honor that call is like a child who refuses to acknowledge the authority of his/her parents. Again: God doesn't "send" people to hell - THEY CHOOSE IT BECAUSE THEY DO NOT WISH TO SERVE GOD; they wish - as you have expressed here - to live according to their will instead of God's. That choice gives God no choice but to honor that wish by quarantining the sinners into the only place in the universe that they can escape from the Being they wished to avoid. You can't see the logic in that?
No, it doesn't. Accepting God does, however, offer me forgiveness and to start anew, because all offenses are - ultimately -against God.Quote:
Originally Posted by limajean
Why do you insist on repeating this? How does it matter? Hell isn't about being "good" or "bad" - it's about whom you choose to serve in this life; that choice is either God, or yourself. Period.Quote:
Originally Posted by limajean
According to the Bible and Jesus both, nobody but God is good. And I would never brag that I thought I was a better person than "many nonbelievers" or "many Moslems," or "many anybody." Why do you do that?Quote:
Originally Posted by limajean
And "goodness" in you is there because of God's presence in your heart.
To an extent, you're right; as such, the fear of hell converts nobody in any permanent way - just as the warnings on cigarette packs don't deter all people from choosing to smoke. But for some people, that warning is the catalyst that points them in a new direction. The fear of hell can't sustain you, but it may make you think a bit harder.Quote:
Originally Posted by limajean
Those we have wronged deserve our apologies and restitution - but all offenses, all sins, all crimes are ultimately against God. We do need His forgiveness because His forgiveness is the only one that actually "rights" or "restores" wrongs. Our human forgiveness cannot do that.Quote:
Originally Posted by limajean
God's forgiveness does not relieve us of the consequences of our actions. He may forgive us for killing that person while driving drunk, but He still lets us go to jail.Quote:
Originally Posted by limajean
There you go again with that "good" comment -Quote:
Originally Posted by limajean
Once again: heaven and hell are not about behavior. They're about who you choose to serve.Quote:
Originally Posted by limajean
But if God created the universe and is the author of reality and He tells us the consequences, why are you so bugged about them? Your argument is based upon the idea that God could just let you reject Him and continue to have a good life; but without God there is NO good life because all goodness, all beauty, all love, all that is worthy - COMES FROM HIM. He can't give you things if you reject Him when the things you want come from Him.Quote:
Originally Posted by limajean
Nobody is completely innocent - even "good" people like you. It is not believing in God that's the problem - it is the persistent and sustained refusal to believe despite the evidence that God gives you.Quote:
Originally Posted by limajean
If God worked off that principal, we'd all be condemned to hell. Luckily, since God is love, He sacrifices Himself - in the person of Christ - to pay the penalty of sin we all owe, so that we are forgiven and can inherit eternal life simply by accepting that God is our rightful master. You want justice, but not applied to YOU.Quote:
Originally Posted by limajean
What makes you deserving of anything? As a sinner (like me), you deserve death (like me). Christ's sacrifice allows you and me both to live eternally in the presence of God if we so choose.
That's the problem. The Bible makes it clear that our own efforts at goodness are insufficient to "earn" our way into heaven. Nobody gets there because she/he "deserves" to be there - they are there because God has extended a magnificent, and free, gift. But you don't have to take it if you don't want to.Quote:
Originally Posted by limajean
The "bigfoot" comment was disrespectful and unnecessary.
it was neither. her comparison is quite right. many happen to worship big foot. and they got news for you...if you don't choose him, you can be sure you'll spend eternal damnation as one of the provokers who's messin with Sasquatch in the jack links commercials. rather than a book to prove their beliefs, they have film evidence: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tXEE...eature=relatedQuote:
Originally Posted by Redzeppelin
hey, Blaze. Good to hear your opinions. You are not an atheist. Even the dictionary can tell you that. You are a Theist, though I do not know whether you are a monotheist or Polytheist. The difference is belief. You love Krishna, Buddha and Jesus all the same, right. And you refuse to believe that there is a difference. Well, it sounds like nothing we tell you here may persuade you, except you have concrete proof. Go ahead and try the three religions, maybe one for each week or one for each month, and tell the difference yourself. Then you will know which one is true. I am confident that if you will try this little experiment, you will be amazed wt what you will discover.Quote:
Originally Posted by blazeofglory
But also realize that Hebrews 11 says: "faith is the ...evidence of things not seen" and "without faith it is impossible to please [God], for he who comes to God must first believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of those that diligently seek him". This is because God is not seen [at least not with human eyes], and you need faith to believe in God. You do not need to believe in something you already see; in that case, there is no need to believe. So when people tell you about God and Jesus, it takes faith to understand it.
Love,
C.J.
Skasian: We are all God's creation, but not all God's Children. Check out Romans 8.
The Atheist: When a blind man who has been certified totally blind by the doctor, is prayed for and starts seeing there and then, what do you call that? Oh, and By the way, Jesus who healed people said that those who believed in him WILL Do greater works than HE did...Check out John 14.
The Atheist: Speaking in tongues will be a joke to a linguist or to you simply because you do not understand it. Its easy for people to simply say, everything in Christianity is false...and worse still, they go to great lengths to prove it (thinking that they are being enlightened), but its funny how scientists try to prove that the Creation is a myth. A famous musician said :"The earth is a masterpiece; Somebody had to paint this"...Unless you believe that you evolved from monkeys and chimps, which I absolutely do not believe. First, I am more intelligent than any Chimp.Second, say I evolved. Of all the 6000 or so years that man has spent on earth, is he not supposed to evolve to something else? It has pretty much been the same since.
Getting back to the subject, speaking in tongues is a direct communication to God. Your mind does not understand it because it is a pray that comes directly from your spirit, and neither will any one else understand it. You can only give the interpretation of it, and that gift is given by the Holy Spirit. Simple. Linguist explain the language of the earth. Have you read in the Book of revelation about people or Jesus having a name that no one understood? Even John did not understand it. There you go. That's part of it.
Curing the sick? Who said anything about curing? Curing is basically using drugs to make someone better. Healing is the more appropriate term. Haven't you read in Mark 16:15-18. where Jesus said "And these signs shall follow them that believe: ...they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover?" I have been a witness to the truth in those words. You either believe it or not. But that does not change the truth: people do get healed, and miracles happen.
Red Zeppelin: Excellent Job on the dissection of the word! I enjoyed reading your thesis and reply to Limajean. permit me to add something. Accepting God is more than just about going to hell or Heaven for me, but Its about getting to know the God who made me and to enjoy his love for me, while I show my love for him in the ways I know possible. Its more than just about heaven or hell, because heaven is a given for any Child of God. Let your motivation be to get to Know God. If it is your motivation,m Heaven is the least of the bliss you'll get to enjoy.
If it happened, I'd gladly call it a miracle, but as they say in Missouri, Show me.Quote:
Originally Posted by CeeJay
;)
Stories are easy to tell.
Another story.Quote:
Originally Posted by CeeJay
No, and that's the whole point, linguists do indeed understand it. This is the best part - the people doing the tongue don't realise how easily they are sprung. Linguists have studied many examples of tongue-speak and wouldn't ya know it, every time, the results show repeated gibberish in a recognisable pattern.Quote:
Originally Posted by CeeJay
Too easy.
(Of course, the ones studied by linguists probably weren't "real" tongue. Probably tongue-in-cheek, or tonsil.)
No, not at all, and I don't even try when it comes to things like people who have daily conversations with a god. I have no desire to pry into people's heads. But when claims of physicalism by their god come through, I like to explore the evidence.Quote:
Originally Posted by CeeJay
Lots of stories.
Now, this is palpably false.Quote:
Originally Posted by CeeJay
Please name one scientist who tries to prove that creation is a myth.
There have certainly been scientists argue against creationism when some silly attempts have been made to teach it in schools, but no serious scientist is even remotely interested in "proving" that a demonstrable myth is a myth.
Dawkins doesn't bother even debating creationists for the obvious reason that it's not worth debating. The myth is that science has any interest in creation at all.
It just doesn't.
Damn right, and nor should you. Anyone who claims that humans evolved from monkeys and chimps is just out of touch with reality.Quote:
Originally Posted by CeeJay
:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by CeeJay
Evolution takes hundreds of thousands or millions of years - 6000 years is insufficient time frame for a mammal species to show evolutionary signs.
I won't bother mentioning glaciers, fossils, antarctica, trees, coal or any of the other millions of reasons why the idea that the earth is 6013 years old is just beyond laughable.
There are plants older than that, for goodness sake!
God, it must be boring to be god. Tongue is a repetition of half a dozen pieces of gibberish. Lots more boring than the Hare Krishna chant, for starters.Quote:
Originally Posted by CeeJay
Ah, yes. the "It's in the bible, so it must be true" argument.Quote:
Originally Posted by CeeJay
It's just such a damn shame that not one single person who has been healed/cured - call it what you wish - goes to their doctor afterwards for confirmation.Quote:
Originally Posted by CeeJay
So you are telling me that you need proof of everything? The reason why God sends us miracles are because He wants people to have stronger faith in Him, simply, as a proof that He is with us all the time. I heavily doubt that your eyes will tell you that God exists even though miracles, impossible visual proofs occur before them. So are you telling me that you need more proofs? To what extent exactly do you need further proof to tell yourself it is time to believe in God? I fear to know your answer. Let me ask you, wouldnt this be your reaction, to tell yourself you are having metal malfunctioning if one day you have a vision of Jesus crying in front of you, asking why you reject Him.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Atheist
The reality is, even with the impossible happening, atheists like you wont ever accept God. I bet that even with new evidences to proofs, it just wont ever be sufficient.
Rush of Blood and CJ thanks for providing extracts to confirm that some people are not God's Children.