I fully intend to show respect, I have no reason to do otherwise. If there is a debate, there is always the chance of someone becoming upset. I apologize if you think I am coming off as aggressive, I’m not.
I fully intend to show respect, I have no reason to do otherwise. If there is a debate, there is always the chance of someone becoming upset. I apologize if you think I am coming off as aggressive, I’m not.
This string is mildly interesting. It reminds me of an online discussion in which people tried to prove that "God" existed. None of the attempts even came close to proving the existence of an infinite, omniscient, omnipotent god, but there were some arguments that may have proven that one or more smaller gods existed, of God of the Solar system of God of te planet.
1. I'll start at the top. Do you know the Dead Sea Scrolls (found in the 1960's) verified the ancient Biblical texts, almost to the letter? Have you read Isaiah 53, which contains prophecies of Christ written hundreds of year before Christ lived?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jilvin
2. The creation account in the Bible matches what science has found as the order of creation. How did the authors know the order in which animals were created?
No problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by grotto
Okay, I shall state my position. God is infinite. We do not see God because of our current consciousness. There are several different levels of consciousness, such as unconsciousness, gross physical consciousness, subtle consciousness, mental consciousness, and spiritual, or unbound consciousness. Each of these levels has a difficult time perceiving the higher level. For instance, gross consciousness has a difficult time perceiving subtle or mental consciousness. And mental consciousness has a difficult time perceiving what is spiritual, because it is beyond the conceptual thought which it believes to be the sum of reality.
Mystics of every religion, it is safe to say, have said very similar things. Basically my position is that God (Infinite, Truth) is One, while there are many interpretations. God is like on another side of a barrier from us. Although this barrier is only our own limitations and consciousness. But it seems like God is on another side of a barrier; this is why we ask "Where is God?" Because in our mental or material conceptions, we do not see God and we doubt the existence of an Infinite One.
Anyhow, further, we have a feeling of an ego, and we have feelings of limitations. If we set God aside for a moment, there is still this. We feel we are separate. You and I spoke of this on another thread. In Buddhism and Hinduism this is called Samsara or Maya. In the Vedas it is called the "Dream of separateness." In Buddhism the goal of the path is Awakening, or Enlightenment, beyond all, and realization of one's Buddha-nature. In Hinduism the goal is Self-realization or God-realization.
For many, especially in the West, Buddhism has become less and less, and they discard out of hand anything mystical. However, it is my understanding that the mystical part of it is essential. The Buddha-nature is not something which cannot be grasped, it is actually something entirely graspable. It is pushed away from us all the time, we are always being practical. But one big part of Buddhism, and indeed of any philosophy or religion is understand the question of reality, ourselves, and truth. As we said, the question "Who am I?" is so essential.
To go back to God, my understanding that God is One. God is Infinite Light. In Buddhism there is a Buddha called Amitabha Buddha, Buddha of Infinite Light. The question of what is reality is kind of involved in Buddhism. However in my view it is Infinite Light. In Hinduism, this is taken to be understood as Deities; Krishna, Ram. The essence of God is understood to be Infinite consciousness, knowledge, bliss, etc. Hinduism and Buddhism each look at the Ultimate Truth, or the Source, God, by whatever name you will call it, and each have their own perspective. In Pure Land Buddhism there are numerless Pure Lands, with numerless Buddhas and Bodhisattvas. Again this is discarded by many who seek Buddhism. That is fine. I believe it is an accurate description of what God (Infinite Light) is.
Finally, and this is the main thing. When I said those mystics have said similar things about God, what I mean is... well, have you read "The Dream of A Ridiculus Man" by Dostoevsky? What the mystics describe is the light of God, of Brahman, or Atman. They say that nothing can die. Vivekananda has a good quote which is illustrative.
I am not sure if it was perhaps Sri Aurobindo, who said also, "pain and suffering are only the extremes in this play."Quote:
There is hope for all. None can die; none can be degraded forever. Life is but a playground, however gross the play may be. However we may receive blows, and however knocked about we may be, the Atman is there and is never injured. We are that Infinite.
So you ask, how can there be God if there is suffering? Well, the answer coming from the "other side," is basically, be at peace, be happy, don't worry... it is an understanding of truth which cannot be expressed, which is always flowing. The infinite flow of the spirit. It is basically, be at peace, because; the universe is empty, your suffiering will cease while you are eternal. How to explain "Life is a game," "Life is a play"? How to say that life is illusion? Well, the thing is, we are eternal. What happens to eternal beings temporarily does not register, it is fleeting illusion. We are the eternal Atman, soul.
I do apologize since this wasn't entirely cohesive. Just trying to get my thoughts into the post.
Basically the message from the otherside is "This is what Awakening is, be at peace because you are an eternal soul, the same essence as God." To sum up my position, our true nature is the eternal Atman, which is of the same essence as God.
George Harrison said more than once, "Many things in life can wait, but the search for God, that cannot wait."
Here is the thing, and you said you do believe this. We are not separate from the world, or from the universe. But if this is true, if we are not separate, why do we feel separate? Einstein said, we feel separate as sort of an optical delusion of consciousness. But doesn't this mean it is rather important to know, to find out? Doesn't this make you wonder, what is it possible to be?
We are part of the universe, we part of reality, and complete self-knowledge is our inheritance. We don't die any more than God or the universe dies. Our source is the source of reality, and how can something go to somewhere other than its source? How can we go anywhere but to our source? All reality has one source, and nothing can ever be separate from this source. In my knowledge, that source is God.
Anyway, since we are the same nature as God, since who we really are is the divine soul; we are not fully satisfied until we are perfectly situatdd in self-knowledge, self-surrender, self-realization, or God-realization (all of which are quite similar terms).
This is why as George said, the search cannot wait. If we are heirs to truth, how can we be satsified with anything except truth, and peace?
The question is not: "How can God exist if there is suffering?" The question is: "What exists?" "Who am I?" "What is reality?" "What is God?" The question is not, "Can [this] exist while [this other] exists;" but rather, "What exists?" "What is true?"
"What exists" and "What is true" is not dependent on you, me, your actions or my actions, or the actions of all humanity. Hope that you can see my point.
Just to make a quick comment on some of your last post. Please see this as a compliment; it is not aggressive in any way. Your age is your advantage; don’t allow your ideas and intelligence to keep you from seeing wisdom. Don’t miss the forest for the trees.Quote:
Originally Posted by NikolaiI
My point in throwing a wrench into this is, you state what God is and then proceed to go on a long winded way of telling me why we can’t see who God is. Endlessly describing states of consciousness that you have only read about, other people’s ideas, and the like to prove why it is that we do not see what god is. By the way, more people than George Harrison have said that, he is no one special, same with Einstein. Quoting others only helps to keep you removed from your own truth. When you point to another’s ideas, you can safely remove responsibility of your own thought.
How do you know what the message is from the other side? All I hear is verbiage from an intelligent, well read young person with a quest for knowledge that is getting bogged down in endless ideas from other people, words spoken from who knows who, from times past and much of it of dubious origin that you assume to be true because it fits your current state of identifiable consciousness. Show me that state of consciousness! Where is this scale that it’s measured against! So who are you? How would you seek God if you could not hear or see, if no one else’s ideas bogged you down and sent you off on tangents?
So where do I stand? Life is to be experienced in this current form, it is not a thing to escape from, it’s a thing to be awakened to.
No, again, I was quoting George as an expression of my own thought.Quote:
Originally Posted by grotto
As they say, all this is something which can't be taught, but has to be realized.
You do get down to the heart or the crux of the matter. I can't really avoid telling you at this point, although this may derail it. Everything I described is not something which I have only read about, I wouldn't have written it then. I have experienced these states of consciousness which I described - divine consciousness. I have experienced Awakening in the Buddhist understanding, as well as divine revelation in the Hindu understanding.
You may not believe me, that is fine. I will go elsewhere if you don't wish to discuss anymore.
I quote people like Vivekananda beause, as I said, most mystics have described things which are the same, in a certain similar manner. I woulnd't perhaps believe them except that I experienced too what they described. In one case, word for word, the description of this writer was what I experienced.
Perhaps Buddha-nature, perhaps Atman, the soul, are only our interpretations of it. It is clear that we, by logical thinking, should be of the same nature as the rest of the universe - energy, or light. A photon of light is eternal, it never ceases to exist, but it merely changes form. We are thus the same, also eternal. Some think we lose our individuality, some don't ponder. For me, I think it is absurd to think that we are supreme in the universe, which appears to be the stance taken by atheists. I believe we are a part of a universe which was created from the Infinite Light, which is not unconscious, which is not less than us, but we are part of the Upper Force, if you will, of the Divine.
Anyway you ask how do I know what is the message coming from the Divine, I hope I have explained that to you a bit.
No Einstein was not that special, nor was he the most advanced spiritually, etc. George Harrison was not special because he said that. George was deeper spiritually than perhaps you will ever know. Of course he probably wouldn't wish to be thought of like that, as he was unfailingly humble, but it is true about him.
Yes these have been some tangents, please forgive me for that. Sorry I didn't answer all your questions. As for your request of me to show you that state of consciousness - I can't show it to you. I do hope you, and all, find what I have found some day.
And I am aware that others have said what I have said before. I am aware that there is nothing new under the sun. But they are dead now, and they are not here. Also, when one learns something, discovers something for oneself, even if it has been discovered before, then they are being original. But then I did read that somewhere, so maybe it is taking me further from truth to agree with it and repeat it.
It does not matter what I believe or what anyone else believes, it’s what you believe. Belief I have come to know is a hindering word.
Those who know, do not say, those who say, do not know. Yet! Some one had to start the ball rolling and so it goes.
This thread has been derailed enough; I wish you the best in your quest. Now back to our regularly scheduled programming already in process. :p
My post was short - do you have time to answer it?Quote:
Originally Posted by grotto
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynne Fees
Nope, sorry, I have no interest.;)
It skips a few steps like "swarmers" (aquatic and flying), that is land critters should be after the sea critters but before the flying variety but biblicly come at the end, Genesis 1.21-24. That and the astrology is off in that the sky considered firmament, the sun and stars come after light, day and night etc. I dunno. Maybe he built the physics before the physical, but then he created heavens and earth first.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynne Fees
Not sure about the dead sea scrolls confirming anything more than they and the bible were written centuries ago. Though you may have something there...
The greatest evidence against atheists is their complete failure to get their story straight.
Sorry, but I don't understand this at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Musicology
What story is there to "get straight"?
An atheist - and I speak with some authority on the subject - is someone who does not believe in god/s.
The simple answer is that anyone not conforming to that sentence isn't an atheist, and since it's the only criterion, I really don't know which story you might mean.
:confused: Do Atheist begin as such; or are they created?
I would contend that most babies don't spring out of the womb reciting the Gospel of St. John.
Saved me the trouble!Quote:
Originally Posted by soundofmusic
Quote:
Originally Posted by OrphanPip
:)
:confused: Sorry if I am asking a stupid question; but what creates an Atheist? Is it a strict, fundamentalist faith that lets one down (as well as the people one trusts) Is it the unfairness of life; some enjoying abundance while others suffering starvation, disease, etc. Is it that when one listens to religious conversation; it seems to be some sort of circular logic that really answers nothing...taking a person around until dizzy and leaving them back to the beginning of the conversation. Is it that while most God images are supposed to be the creator of all mankind; he is unfair: favoring one group of people while making others suffer. Is it because he takes a sadistic delight in making man suffer with his mind games: as with Abraham and Isaac or Job. Is it that, for Christian doctorines, Gods morals and ethics change over time even if God does not.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Atheist
I myself am not an Atheist; neither do I buy into such belief systems; So please, give me your opinions. I am not putting anyone or any faith down; merely curious
All or any of the above.Quote:
Originally Posted by soundofmusic
I know atheists who, like myself, decided at around the same age that Santa and god/s were both the same type of myth and never bothered with theism at all. I know others who were christian for many years before becoming atheist.
Some atheists come from strong christian families, while some christians grew up devoid of god/s.
There is no single factor which unites atheists in any way beyond that one little phrase; "I do not believe in god/s."
From there, there are no common paths. We don't have a common answer for what life, the universe and everything actually is and is up to, we don't have a common theory for the origin of life, and we certainly don't have any common ground on how to deal with theists.
The philately argument works fine for atheists. While you can classify philatelists as people who collect stamps, you can't group non-philatelists by any other typing.
I missed this one, and I hate seeing unchallenged assertions lying around.
Especially when they're wrong!
If you want to argue biblical accuracy, you'll need to cover the several thousand parts which do not fit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynne Fees
Besides which, saying Isaiah prophesied Jesus is like trying to make a Nostradamus quatrain predict the 9/11 attacks. It just isn't there.
As we've discussed here previously, this assertion is just wrong. Animalian evolution did not happen in the order of the bible.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynne Fees
This presentation from Dr. Laurence Krauss on how the universe can come into existence from nothingness might be interesting for the people in this thread. He is presenting it in layman terms in a very charismatic manner, he's a great speaker.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Imvl...layer_embedded