According to the Koran 91:8, Allah creates all evil as well.
According to the Koran 91:8, Allah creates all evil as well.
yes, it means he creates evil to give man and jinn the CHOICE.
it doesn't mean He himself is evil...
Okay if He's not evil then where did evil come from?
How come Iblees have the guts to know before Allah created Adam that Adam would spread unrest in the world??
Poppin, how do you explain your point in ref to Quran
here is the verse quoted by you
http://www.thetruecall.com/home/Quran_Chapter_91:8.htm
poppin , you have given a patently wrong reference,
the site says
Transliteration Faalhamaha fujooraha wataqwaha
Abdullah Yusuf Ali And its enlightenment as to its wrong and its right;-
Mufti Taqi Usmani then inspired it with its (instincts of) evil and piety,
Muhammad Marmaduke Pickthall And inspired it (with conscience of) what is wrong for it and (what is) right for it.
Sahih International And inspired it [with discernment of] its wickedness and its righteousness,
French et lui a alors inspiré son immoralité, de même que sa piété!
Japanese 邪悪と信心に就いて，それ（魂）に示唆した御方において（誓う）。
Russian и внушил ей порочность и богобоязненность!
Portugese E lhe imprimiu o discernimento entre o que é certo e o que é errado,
German und ihr den Sinn für ihre Sündhaftigkeit und für ihre Gottesfurcht eingegeben hat!
check out for the 99 attributes of Allah at this link:::Quote:
Originally Posted by crazefest456
http://www.jannah.org/articles/names.html
1. Why does God need to embody whatever he creates? Is it necessary if he creates the clouds he needs to be a cloud (I don't believe in the idea of omnipresence, it degrades God).Quote:
Originally Posted by mazHur
2. Everyone knew, the Angels and the Jinns, about man's ability to choose between right and wrong, and how they have the ability to spread chaos. I must remind you that Iblees only became bad after he refused to acknowledge Adam as God's creation, which was after God created Adam. Can you explain how everyone's knowledge about man's capability explains why God is also evil?
umm.. I think poppin did give a right reference, it was just a poor translation...it means the same thing essentially.Quote:
Originally Posted by mazHur
check out for the 99 attributes of Allah at this link:::
http://www.jannah.org/articles/names.html[/QUOTE]
okay, I did. The ones that you would assume that imply the God is "evil" might be these:
"1. Al-Malik
* The King, The Sovereign Lord, The One with the complete Dominion, the One Whose Dominion is clear from imperfection.
2. Al-Jabbaar
* The Compeller, The One that nothing happens in His Dominion except that which He willed.
3. Al-Qahhaar
* The Subduer, The Dominant, The One who has the perfect Power and is not unable over anything.
4. Al-Qaabid
* The Constricter, The Retainer, The Withholder, The One who constricts the sustenance by His wisdomand expands and widens it with His Generosity and Mercy.
5. Al-Khaafid
* The Abaser, The One who lowers whoever He willed by His Destruction and raises whoever He willed by His Endowment.
6. Al-Muthil
* The Dishonorer, The Humiliator, He gives esteem to whoever He willed, hence there is no one to degrade Him; And He degrades whoever He willed, hence there is no one to give Him esteem.
7. Al-Mateen
* The Firm One, The One with extreme Power which is un-interrupted and He does not get tired.
8. Al-Mumeet
* The Creator of Death, The Destroyer, The One who renders the living dead.
9. Al-Mu'akh-khir
* The Delayer, the Retarder, The One who puts things in their right places. He makes ahead what He wills and delays what He wills.
10. Al-Muntaqim
* The Avenger, The One who victoriously prevails over His enemies and punishes them for their sins. It may mean the One who destroys them. "
I still feel that all these don't constitute evil. His divine understanding of our human nature, what we need right now and what we need later on, his perfect justice is all GOOD. I wish you'd point out which one's make him evil...
in the end, God knows.
A common answer to the problem of evil is saint Augustine answer which is that evil is the absence of God. This has been a popular explanation and important figures of early Christian philosophy/theology like saint Augustine and Boethius have used this. I'm not so sure about what modern theology has to say about this, and while different theories have been put forward by Christian thinkers (I don't have much idea what have been the official positions of Churches, as a text might have been condemned at the time it was written but later it was made an official text and the writer made a saint, see Thomas Aquinas and many others) but one of the popular explanations was that God is the "premier moteur" (I tried to look for a translation of this term didn't find, it means basically "first cause"). The image of God as a watchmaker comes from this theory basically.
So God "programmed" everything to work correctly and free will sometimes stop working, and this causes evil. So to take again the image of the watch, God created it to work perfectly, but then some of the parts inside have free will, and can decide to stop working. "Not working" is not something, it's the lack of something. So God is everything that is, and evil is what is not.
But again the religious discourse in philosophy (this mean everything concerning logical method in religion) is not constant, and the early discourses are pretty clear cut, but as logic became more well-known and philosophers worked on religion, they found problems and flaws, but as they were almost all religious themselves (I'm not just referring to Christianity but Islam and Hebraism, which in religious philosophy is very much intertwined anyways), and when they were not (or if they were unorthodox) they had to act as if. So in the end to each problem, a solution HAD to be found if someone was to put forth the problem. So theology has become something that does not mean anything (in the Wittgensteinian sense of the term).
So the doctrines are made to look rigid, but since they don't really mean anything, one can find an interpretation to answer almost anything. And ultimately there is always the: God ways are mysterious. So applying a thoroughly logical method with a skeptical approach to religion is like trying to dig in a cloud.
okay, I did. The ones that you would assume that imply the God is "evil" might be these:Quote:
Originally Posted by crazefest456
"1. Al-Malik
* The King, The Sovereign Lord, The One with the complete Dominion, the One Whose Dominion is clear from imperfection.
2. Al-Jabbaar
* The Compeller, The One that nothing happens in His Dominion except that which He willed.
3. Al-Qahhaar
* The Subduer, The Dominant, The One who has the perfect Power and is not unable over anything.
4. Al-Qaabid
* The Constricter, The Retainer, The Withholder, The One who constricts the sustenance by His wisdomand expands and widens it with His Generosity and Mercy.
5. Al-Khaafid
* The Abaser, The One who lowers whoever He willed by His Destruction and raises whoever He willed by His Endowment.
6. Al-Muthil
* The Dishonorer, The Humiliator, He gives esteem to whoever He willed, hence there is no one to degrade Him; And He degrades whoever He willed, hence there is no one to give Him esteem.
7. Al-Mateen
* The Firm One, The One with extreme Power which is un-interrupted and He does not get tired.
8. Al-Mumeet
* The Creator of Death, The Destroyer, The One who renders the living dead.
9. Al-Mu'akh-khir
* The Delayer, the Retarder, The One who puts things in their right places. He makes ahead what He wills and delays what He wills.
10. Al-Muntaqim
* The Avenger, The One who victoriously prevails over His enemies and punishes them for their sins. It may mean the One who destroys them. "
I still feel that all these don't constitute evil. His divine understanding of our human nature, what we need right now and what we need later on, his perfect justice is all GOOD. I wish you'd point out which one's make him evil...
in the end, God knows.[/QUOTE]
is it Muslim to deny omnipotence of Allah? Is he not Hazir-o-Nazir??
I didn't say Allah is evil,,,,Poppin has wrongly interpreted it. What i mean is that Allah created Man in his own image and gave him the Will to choose. It's the deeds of Men which go to his making evil, not Allah. But, It is perplexing when Allah says nothing not even a leaf can stir without his leave! Doesn't this indicate the existence of Fate (LOH)??
wama illaina illal balag!:)
I was talking about omnipresence, not omnipotence....The belief that god is everything makes polytheism justifiable.Quote:
Originally Posted by mazHur
oops, sorry, I guess I got confused by who said what. Don't worry about the leaf thing. The belief that god allows us to make a choice is an ability he grants us. It doesn't mean that God closes his eyes while we commit vice, he accounts for every thing that we do cognitively...Don't worry at all about God, he's going to give everyone their respective "reward".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadowsarin
god is not evil.
First of all God does not claim to be everything. Second it depends on your religion as to how you view God. There might be multiple gods in your religion, with some being bad and some good, or there might only be one supreme all-powerful God.
mazHur: the examples you have chosen fail to totally portray Allah (to switch back to the general term, "God") as evil. They seem to focus around the idea that God causes bad things to happen to some people. If people were perfect and could not profit by suffering, then that would probably make Him evil. But the fact is that humans are imperfect and can be improved by trials. Therefore, trials sent by God are actually gifts, and expressions of His love and goodness.
In Islam, Allah is supposed to have two sides .For example, they say ''There is No God but God'', ''God is merciful as well as Abaser and Humiliator "", what does all this mean? Doesn't it show that even if we believe there is One God or Allah He has positive as well as negative characteristics? Does he not reward men for their deed here and in the hereafter? God may not be bad but he does seem to possess control over both good and evil?
God DOES control both good and evil. However, He does not create what could really be called "evil." "Misfortune" would be a better word. He causes things which may be painful to people. God is, however, not a being who could actually commit evil actions. He may allow them to happen, and He will not (and does not) stop the actions of men, but He does not do evil things.
As a believer in God, I agree God doesn't do evil. But, it perplexes me to see that Evil is getting stronger day by day.Why doesn't God take steps to control it?
Moreover, if God is, as you say, not a Being then what is he??
Define evil...Quote:
Originally Posted by mazHur
Evil is anything not good or forbidden by God.Quote:
Originally Posted by Etienne
Fore more on this off topic issue better refer to Hammurabi's code, the Bible , the Geeta or the Quran!
Or just check out at free Wikipedia !:D ;)
First off, I did not mean God was not a being. I meant He was not a being who does evil. He is a being, He does not do evil.Quote:
Originally Posted by mazHur
God does not "control" evil because He allows us to experience beforehand what comes of sin: a foretaste of hell, if you will. He allows us to experience evil because it can open our eyes to Him.
So, in other words you believe in fate? Predestination?
If God had to run the show with predestination then let us forget about Good and Evil. Some one had rightly remarked: God made this world and then forgot it ! Amazing !
Why do you forget that God created man in his image. If you wont be spared for your actions in this world by man how could you say God will not account for your good or bad deeds??
If evil is a test from God then why innocent people die in natural calamities ??
Instead of opening their eyes, their eyes get closed forever ! Amazing!
There are no innocent people, "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God."
Yes, I believe in predestination. But it is not as simple as you put it: whenever there is a good thing done by a man, it is because God has worked in him. God has caused him to be good. Whenever a man does an evil action, it comes out of his own heart. We are evil on our own, but sometimes God makes us good. And this was not what God wanted when He created the world: the way things are now is a result of sin. It is because of sin that we are born evil, that our "mouths are like open graves" that our "feet are swift to shed blood." We do our evil on our own, but God uses us to do His good.
In a plane crash all die but one. We say it was a miracle which saved the survivor. How do you explain that? Why did 99 percent of the passengers die??
I'd like to see your statistics for claiming there's more evil however. Unless you base yourself on abortion, homosexuality and such. What you need to know is that it's only more known phenomenons, religion has never "fixed" these issues it has only made people hide it from public eye.Quote:
Originally Posted by mazHur
And no, I don't think one can learn what is "evil" from wikipedia, as you can see evil has many facets and one's evil is another's good or freedom. So I was asking you what was evil for you, because claiming there's more evil now is simply the eternal over-idealization of the past.
Evil is that which is contrary to the character of God. The entire basis for Christian morality is the character of God: what is in harmony with His character is good; that which is not, is evil.Quote:
Originally Posted by Etienne
I would like to know where you got the idea that GOD is everything? I'm not being critical, just would like to know YOUR souce. God is too broad to discuss in terms of good/evil. One's own definition of God, I would hope, couldn't be questioned and answered by adjectives. To me God just IS.
Evil is anything bad ..not acceptable as a religious, ethical, moral or social norm. Evil is another name for disobedience to the commands of god. Disrespecting our parents and elders is also evil. Now without first comprehending the difference between good and evil, as you seem to appear, I am sure it would not be worthwhile discussing further on this subject.
It is a general idea that God is good and their is no escape from this concept dinned into our brains but the questions is then where did evil come from and why is it let scot free by God??
I alreadysaid you could find types of evil in the religious texts of all religions and His punishment for those as well
I do not fully agree with your definition for evil, but I am not going to discuss it here (after all this isn't the topic we are supposed to discuss), but I would like to ask you if evil and bad are the same why do we have two different words for it?Quote:
Originally Posted by mazHur
Evil is a possibility coming from our free will. Evil doesn't exist in material form but something can become evil. That's why most of the crimes are done with good intentions. The existence of evil is a result of a choice.
Evil is bad in the same way a father is also called dad !
please try to get into the spirit of things--there could be more than one word to describe or define something, anything !
Okay. take it this way. anything sinful is evil. Now don't ask me what sin is.
There is no crime as an innocent crime. No sin as 'Innocent sin''.
If one does wrong he gets punished for it ----in this world. Why wouldnt he be punished by God for his evil deeds in this world as well as the hereafter?
I don't believe Jesus will take up all our sins,,,absurd!
I wouldn't like to be so mean and selfish as to hold Jesus responsible for wrongs committed by me !
God is the Master of the entire show, good and evil. He knows the tricks of his Game , we don't. But, all and everything emanates from Him alone!
Mazhur "I don't believe Jesus will take up all our sins,,,absurd!"
1 Corinthians 1:23 "But we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling-block, and to the Greeks foolishness;" and to Moslems absurd:)
But, in this forum, you should not call other religions absurd. All religious belief is absurd to non-believers, and vital to those who believe it.
Mazhur "If one does wrong he gets punished for it ----in this world. Why wouldnt he be punished by God for his evil deeds in this world as well as the hereafter?"
Because justice dictates that one is only punished once for a wrongdoing, and in proportion to the wrong.
Well, I commented based on common sense, not against any religion.
It is not true that people of one religion think ill about other religions,No.A Moslem will spontaneously cease to be a Muslom if he talks even the slightest ill about Jesus or the Scriptures revealed to him. similarly, Muslims firmly believe in the exalted status of Moses, Abraham, Isaac, Lot, David, etc and you have no reason to suspect a Muslim for expressing any profanity against them or any other prophets. I only assessed from my common sense and not from any point of view of any religion. Even in Islam, there are controversial issues on whom Muslims do not agree. this doesnt mean that they are not muslims or irreligious. Atleast, I ,as a matter of intrinsic nature, try to evaluate things by dint of common sense and some rationale (total reasoning is fatal to religion, any religion )
sorry, it doesn't appeal to me that Jesus would be responssible for all the evils that the mankind goes on to commit. This philosophy hits at the very root of the purpose of Creation and good and bad.
Sorry, if the use of words hurt your feelings but please rest assure my comments were a simple inquiry of common sense.
The mouse said: "I want to find crumbs."
The dog said: "I have come to find crusts."
The simpleton said: "What you need is bread, you fools!"
The wise man said: "But you could let them have other kinds of
food..."
The simpleton was annoyed. He said: "The common denominator of
their desires is bread, not food. You are becoming too complicated. "
as collected by Idries Shah
"Sorry, if the use of words hurt your feelings but please rest assure my comments were a simple inquiry of common sense."
I am not a Christian, so you have not hurt my feelings.
The belief that Jesus died as a sacrifice for the sins of mankind is the central belief of Christianity. If you call the belief absurd, you are not insulting Jesus, but you are insulting Christians.
I am not insulting anyone ! The thread doesn't say it is reserved for discussion of Christianity or Islam only. It's about God. If you can question God why can't I question a question of simple common sense? Moreover, as I believe in Jesus I am partly christian!! So, if you are not a Christian be not more loyal than the king. It appears from your writing that you have been hurt more than anyone by my difference in opinion.
Were this a specifically Christian thread i would turn off immediately.
"It appears from your writing that you have been hurt more than anyone by my difference in opinion."
Not hurt at all, but I think it is wrong of you to describe the central belief of another religion as absurd. It may be a wrong belief, and you are free to say so if you want to, and to question as much as you like. But to call the belief absurd is insulting.
It also makes you appear somewhat narrow minded, although that is not my concern. Clearly, many highly intelligent people, for two thousand years or so, have found the idea of Christ's sacrifice not only within the bounds of reason but also a belief to shape their lives by. They may all be wrong, but it would be wiser to try and understand the ideas behind the belief than just to dismiss them as absurd.
I guess we are not discussing Christianity on this thread. If you are so narrow minded to twist the words to a specific religious niche, moreso not even related to that religion, you better not plead for others.
Just on another thread someone is saying Bible was not revealed to Jesus, does that mean he is insulting Christianity??
For those who don't have tolerance in matters of religion and just try to catch words in a general discussion to exploit their vested interest, it's better for them to keep off such discussion lest they get hurt and hurt. Such people are rightly called 'fundamentalists''........as they have nothing else to discuss but to compel others to go by what they believe to be true or false!
"Only in the Zoroastrian religion do we have god splitted into two: Ishwar---good god and Ehrman---god of evil. But, then, how many followers of that religion do you have in the world?"
Back on topic.
I, at least, follow Zarathustra in believing that evil has an entirely separate source from good.
As written in verse 2 of the 45th Yasna:
"I shall now speak about the twin spirits which have existed since the creation's dawn. Of the two spirits thus did the Holy one speak to his twin, the evil one; between us two, neither thoughts, nor teachings, neither will, nor beliefs, neither words, nor inner selves accord, and they are quite separate from each other."
W a r n i n g
Please do not personalise your comments.
Quote:
Originally Posted by crazefest456
Again, you need to read where it says in the Bible ''that which is of flesh is flesh ...'' which means that something can only come from its source.
Therefore, evil can only come from evil. Since the Bible's god creates evil, it means he is evil.
hellsapoppin:
I guess I understand what you mean; but doesn't the quote refer to an inward 'conscience', the sense of morality and ethics that is programmed in our souls. And our souls are separate from our creation, God created us with brain, heart, other organ systems, as a zygote, then breathed into us some part of his spirit (what you mean by the above-mentioned quote). Our desires are worldly, that are almost self-generated (contributions by satan) because of our ability given by God. Our desires only become evil when we become extremely infatuated by them, and are shed, along with our physical self at the point of death.
I don't know, really, what do you think?
God is not Evil.
if taken literally it means only living things can procreate.........Quote:
''that which is of flesh is flesh ...''
metaphorically, it seems to mean that the nature of a thing cannot change. For example, take milk as the basis. One can make so many things out of it such as cheese,butter, curd,yogurt etc etc but all these still contain the basic thing, Milk.
The saying does not connote that God is evil. If He were so this world wouldnt exist. Afterall is any one there who can stop him??
I recall one analogy and it might help to comprehend the subject
Suppose you are doing a test in a class and the teacher tells you that you sont cheat. During the exam the teacher finds that one guy was cheating. So, do you think that the teacher was responsible for the act of his student??
The teacher taught 'good' to the student but yet he disobeyed him and opted for 'evil' deeds. It's the same way with God and the teachings of all holy books where the Master is God and the 'students' . Since God has given men the will it is the man who is to be blamed and held for his wrongdoings, not God.
``Since God has given men the will it is the man who is to be blamed and held for his wrongdoings, not God.``
We're going around in circles as you simply do not understand what is in the Bible. Again, if you would only read what is in that book rather than going in circles, you would know that it clearly states that this same god knew and has known all along who would be saved even before he created the world.
Suppose somebody was impoverished and stole in order to eat and survive, and had no other means of a livelihood, and dies or is killed before he could repent, must he spend eternity in hell?
The Bible is perfectly clear --- god:flare: is evil because he creates all evil.
No, He isn't ,Might be some misprint telling you the other way round.
Oh, I see --- you've been pulling my leg all along.
Funny thing is, the Bible tells us there are pre-Adamic races walking the earth and have been doing so for ''generations'' before Adam was created {Genesis 2:4}. Biblical and Christian teaching tell us that Adam and his lot came into existence around 4004 BC. Science proves humans walked the earth for millienia before that time and that these races still exist to this day. Native Americans and people descended of their ancestry in Asia serves as an example.
These people suffer just as do Adamic races, sin every bit as much, suffer, and have joy as well. Centuries and millenia before Adam they suffered from war, pestilence, and starvation just like everyone else. Yet, their ancestors did not know what the Garden of Eden was. So how is it that they, too, were affected by the Fall?
Obviously, it is because evil has always existed. It existed long before Adam walked the earth. And what does it ultimately mean?
It means that evil had to be created by another agency. And the Bible tells us in Isaiah 45:7 what that agency is. Therefore, contrary to Christian teaching, it is your god who created that evil which complies with what the Bible teaches.
Sorry, I cannot agree with this statement. It is just like saying that Alfred Nobel, for example, was evil because he invented dynamite or, more broadly speaking, scientists are evil because they prepared the tools for human destruction.:yawnb: :DCode:hellsapoppin -----/god is evil because he creates all evil./