:lol::lol: Me too! I was like 'wasn't it another color? maybe I'm seeing things?' :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
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:lol::lol: Me too! I was like 'wasn't it another color? maybe I'm seeing things?' :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
Janine, you already posted the first section? I thought we usually discuss the story as a whole before we get to sections.
The lines in bold here bothered me a bit. Though perhaps I am just being nit picky, but I kept wondering to myself, just what was the significance, of the fact that the women were on their way home to cook dinner.Quote:
The mistress of the British School stepped down from her school gate, and instead of turning to the left as usual, she turned to the right. Two women who were hastening home to scramble their husbands' dinners together--it was five minutes to four--stopped to look at her. They stood gazing after her for a moment; then they glanced at each other with a woman's little grimace.
I did not like the fact, that it seemed like it was just a random detail thrown in the story. Why did the reader need to know this?
So I really want these lines to have some purpose in the overall story, though perhaps I am trying to stretch things too far.
But I thought perhaps these two women were meant to sort of offset against the abnormalcy, of dysfunctional family and life of the Robtham's. They are more or less "normal" sense they are on their way to cook for their husbands, in contrast to Hilda.
Patricianly where it states:
I thought this scene with the preceding lines:Quote:
They stood gazing after her for a moment; then they glanced at each other with a woman's little grimace
Quote:
To be sure, the retreating figure was ridiculous: small and thin, with a black straw hat, and a rusty cashmere dress hanging full all round the skirt. For so small and frail and rusty a creature to sail with slow, deliberate stride was also absurd. Hilda Rowbotham was less than thirty, so it was not years that set the measure of her pace; she had heart disease. Keeping her face, that was small with sickness, but not uncomely, firmly lifted and fronting ahead, the young woman sailed on past the market-place, like a black swan of mournful, disreputable plumage.
Were both painful and comical at the same time. You can just picture these two biddies standing there gossiping behind Hilda's back as she passes them by before they rush off home. And I think Hilda is set up to be prideful and defiant in the face of such gossip. With her slow deliberate stride, and the way she "sails" down the street.
I found the use of these lines to be interesting, and though when I first read it, I winced slightly because I thought the metaphor was perhaps just a bit overdone, but I liked the symbolism behind the words.Quote:
like a black swan of mournful, disreputable plumage
White sawns are often used as this image of purity, maidenhood, and innocence. So I liked this contrast of the black swan being like the black sheep of the family. The color of their feathers being their mark against them. And yet the birds are just as elegant and beautiful as their white cousins.
I found the whole exchange between Hilda and the Baker to be quite entertaining. Though I wondered why he was made to look like such an unhappy brute. I will try and coment more upon the rest of that part of the text once I have had time to mull it over some more.
Ok, first yours. I did change the shoes, Nossa, so don't worry about your sanity.;):lol: I just thought, after a second reading of the story, that indeed, the baby was not that poor and was wearing a white Christening dress so I would go with these white shoes instead. I hope I can use those other antique shoes, for another story or poem. I really liked those; they had so much character.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nossa
*moan*Virgil, go back to the Olympics! ;):lol: I'm really just fooling with you. :D
I know, we have given individual opinions in the past, but isn't that what usually lands us in trouble right from the start? Why not just skip that for now (no passing judgement) and start discussing the story as we encounter it. We got started late this month anyway, so I figured we would not waste time hashing the story about and beating it to death, before we really discuss and analysis it. Later one when we finish we can all express our opinions on the value of the story, etc. I think that Dark Muse has pointed out some good things in this beginning part of the text, so after this post I will address what she has written.
I'm not talking about judgements, but a discussion on what the story is about, general themes, it's structure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
I've always felt that you can't talk about the minutia without an understanding of the overall. But so be it.Quote:
and start discussing the story as we encounter it. We got started late this month anyway, so I figured we would not waste time hashing the story about and beating it to death, before we really discuss and analysis it. Later one when we finish we can all express our opinions on the value of the story, etc. I think that Dark Muse has pointed out some good things in this beginning part of the text, so after this post I will address what she has written.
I think later, DM, you actually answer this yourself. I think also Lawrence means to set the stage of a kind of 'gossipy' neighborhood surroundings. People 'talk' and in particular, this will come out stronger with the shame of someone (in this case her younger sister) having given birth to a child 'out of wedlock.' I think that the school teacher's character is closely being grouped with this family, who are now dainted with shame; the onlookers are like the towns people in the "Scarlet Letter." Indeed their activities are presented as normal in contrast to the disfunctional family that this woman is associated with.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
I think we now have established it does have it's precise purpose and is not random; nor a mere detail of no significance. Lawrence grew up in neighborhoods like this and he knew the way common people could gossip and talk about their neighbors.Quote:
I did not like the fact, that it seemed like it was just a random detail thrown in the story. Why did the reader need to know this?
They do have meaning; I don't think you are stretching things one bit. These opening passages set the scene/atmosphere and the fact that the family is now a sort of outcast unit, in the eyes of their neighbors and the town's people.Quote:
So I really want these lines to have some purpose in the overall story, though perhaps I am trying to stretch things too far.
I would agree with this contrast. You stated that well.Quote:
But I thought perhaps these two women were meant to sort of offset against the abnormalcy, of dysfunctional family and life of the Robtham's. They are more or less "normal" sense they are on their way to cook for their husbands, in contrast to Hilda.
Yes, I thought so, too. I agree that "Hilda is set up to be prideful and defiant in the face of such gossip" - that is a good way of putting it. I like the wording of "sails' down the street"....and the part about "her slow deliberate stride." I will read over the passage again and see if I can pick out other defining words.Quote:
Were both painful and comical at the same time. You can just picture these two biddies standing there gossiping behind Hilda's back as she passes them by before they rush off home. And I think Hilda is set up to be prideful and defiant in the face of such gossip. With her slow deliberate stride, and the way she "sails" down the street.
I especially noticed those lines and thought them poetic and I really liked the analogy or metaphor of the black swan.Quote:
I found the use of these lines to be interesting, and though when I first read it, I winced slightly because I thought the metaphor was perhaps just a bit overdone, but I liked the symbolism behind the words.
Good observation. I like what you wrote here.Quote:
White sawns are often used as this image of purity, maidenhood, and innocence. So I liked this contrast of the black swan being like the black sheep of the family. The color of their feathers being their mark against them. And yet the birds are just as elegant and beautiful as their white cousins.
I think it does make us wonder about the Baker and this adds some mystery to the story. Later on we do indeed get more insight into what significance he plays in the story. I like the fact that Lawrence only hints here at his part in the tale. I like how he presents him so that we have to think of why he reacts as he does to Hilda.Quote:
I found the whole exchange between Hilda and the Baker to be quite entertaining. Though I wondered why he was made to look like such an unhappy brute. I will try and coment more upon the rest of that part of the text once I have had time to mull it over some more.
Yes I agree, though for me it was more the other way around. That is I found the way she was acting a bit more strange, and mysterious. The baker I just presumed was a genrally burly sort of fellow. But when I was first reading the story, I did not understand why she came off as being so high strung, and nervous when dealing with the baker.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
I found this exchange a bit currious and was not completely sure what to make of it.Quote:
"Then I can't have any, Mr Berryman. Now I do feel disappointed. I like those macaroons, you know, and it's not often I treat myself. One gets so tired of trying to spoil oneself, don't you think? It's less profitable even than trying to spoil somebody else." She laughed a quick little nervous laugh, putting her hand to her face.
"Then what'll you have?" asked the man, without the ghost of an answering smile. He evidently had not followed, so he looked more glum than ever.
When it said
I was unsure, if that meant he simply had not understood her order/ what she wanted. Or if it meant he did not understand what she was trying to say, and that her words just went over his head.Quote:
He evidently had not followed, so he looked more glum than ever
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
Quote:
I found this exchange a bit currious and was not completely sure what to make of it.
I wonder if she was referring to her younger sister being spoiled by her? I am not sure about the "it is less profitable even than trying to spoil somebody else" - could she just be talking in a sarcastic manor? I will have to think about that line more.Quote:
When it said "Then I can't have any, Mr Berryman. Now I do feel disappointed. I like those macaroons, you know, and it's not often I treat myself. One gets so tired of trying to spoil oneself, don't you think? It's less profitable even than trying to spoil somebody else." She laughed a quick little nervous laugh, putting her hand to her face.
"Then what'll you have?" asked the man, without the ghost of an answering smile.
I do think the Bakerman does not know exactly what she is referring to or consciously he does not recognise her sarcasm. I think that Hilda keeps the family together being the oldest and a woman with a profession; so perhaps she now feels that all her efforts have been invane, given the circumstances that await her at home. All of this is just my own theory of course and the impression I got of this part of the story - the beginning and introduction to both characters and their short little interchange of words.Quote:
"He evidently had not followed, so he looked more glum than ever."
I was unsure, if that meant he simply had not understood her order/what she wanted. Or if it meant he did not understand what she was trying to say, and that her words just went over his head.
Virgil, we must have been posting the same time - sorry about that. I did not mean to ignore your post. I know but what you mean, but it just seems that, it always does end up being a judgement on the story or the characters. I didn't mean to go so along quickly, but this month will be short now, and I hope we can start a new story by Sept. I didn't think it totally neccessary to see the overall impression yet, but feel free, V, to say a few words about it, such as themes and structure, if you feel inclined to. I am all ears (actually 'eyes' on here), my good friend...sorry we charged into the first part so quickly; I assumed everyone had read the story by now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Well, you know we think so differently about this. It might be me; I really can't concentrate on a story discussion, if we jump all over with the time sequence. I think I may have dyslexia or something, because I get so overwhelmed, when we start to post comments on the ending or the middle, before we get to those parts of the story. I truly have trouble with that, unless we take it step by step, and post segments of the story to discuss, along with character analysis. Often if we just jump ahead with Lawrence stories, we do miss something vital. At least, that is merely my opinion.Quote:
I've always felt that you can't talk about the minutia without an understanding of the overall. But so be it.
If you want to express an overall understanding/impression, from the start please feel free to do so. I will listen, as I said above. I personally cannot do that until I discuss, think about and digest the story, part by part. You probably are much better at seeing the whole right away, than I am.
Oh yes, I did not think of that. At first I thought she was just talking in general, but I can see where she could be refering to what she has to sacrifice for her family and I can see how when she tries to get something for herself once and cannot it would be frustrating.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
She does seem a very pious woman, so I can see where she would view it as being better to take care of others, over oneself.
Yes that makes sense. I also got the impression, that the baker was just a bit slow in general, though perhaps it was just his awakardness around her which made him seem to be so.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
DM, I am going to retire to bed now - tired out. I think we made a good start today, don't you? Thanks for your comments - you had some good things to point out. Hopefully Virgil will point some general things out tomorrow and then we can move on with the text. Goodnight, DM.
Yes I think it started out well. Goodnight
I'm behind as usual. I skimmed the story once. I need to read it carefully still.
Sorry for being late in participating. I got caught up in things with my family. But I'm here now, and I can see you guys already got to the second page :lol:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
I agree with Janine. Actually I thought the two lines were very important in showing how the family was regarded from the rest of the community. Look at the choice of words in the line. D.H. Lawrence used 'hastening' and 'scramble'. Both words show that the two women weren't just going home, but that they were already late and they wanted to reach home as soon as possible, not to make a dinner but to 'scramle' something for their husbands. Despite all that, they still took a moment to look at Hilda as she was passing by, and ton both gaze at her and then give each other a 'women's glance'.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
I really liked the comparison you made between the two women and the Rowbothams.
Yeah, I agree. I really felt bad for Hilda, and at this point I was a bit curious about Hilda herself, only to find out later that the story wasn't really about her.Quote:
Were both painful and comical at the same time. You can just picture these two biddies standing there gossiping behind Hilda's back as she passes them by before they rush off home. And I think Hilda is set up to be prideful and defiant in the face of such gossip. With her slow deliberate stride, and the way she "sails" down the street.
Don't you think that the description of Hilda and her heart condition didn't add much to the main story? Or maybe D.H. Lawrence wanted our sympathy towards Hilda, before we go in the Rowbotham house and see how dysfunctional they were?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
I felt really bad for Hilda when she went to the bakery. I did think that he was an insensitive brute, since afterwards we learnt that Hilda herself wasn't the one who had an illegitimate child. I could almost picture her talking in a quick, nervous manner, as if unconsciously apologising for something that she didn't do. I was very curious as to why she was acting very nervous too. I had to re-read what she said (the things she ordered) to see if she maybe ordered something strange or anything...LOL.Quote:
But when I was first reading the story, I did not understand why she came off as being so high strung, and nervous when dealing with the baker.
I only read the story once, and never got the chance to re-read it. I'll do this today, and come back with more comments hopefully :D
Quote by Virgil
Virgil, You are not far behind, although I did reread the story 3 times now..;) and I never skim.:lol: I only posted up to the part when Hilda is about to make it to home. That is not too far at all.Quote:
I'm behind as usual. I skimmed the story once. I need to read it carefully still.
Anyway, I thought you wished to post some thoughts on the theme, etc. I wrote about that in my post to you above. Just jump in an do so whenever you want, or if you would rather wait till the end to do so, save it and then we call all discuss those aspects of the story.
Nossa, You are not late, either....just that DM and I are early...:lol: We did make it to the second page in the book (text I posted) but only half way down the page, I think. It really only amounts to about a page of text, actually. We will go slowly posting the text, so don't worry. I have other things besides the forum to attend to, also. Anyway, glad to see you here now, Nossa. It is nice to have a new person in this thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nossa
If you wish to for convenience' sake, you can refer to the author as Lawrence or just "L"...we all do that usually. I know I hate typing the D.H. all the time....those periods are a pain! Yes, good point on the words Lawrence chooses to use in that particular part of the text - indeed 'hastening' and 'scrambling' do have their significance; they convey a different feeling than if he said 'they were hurrying home'. These woman probably know that they need to get their husband's dinner on the table in time or they will be chastised for it; yet as you point out they still take the time to stop a minute to observe and gossip, if only in their wry looks of disapproval, about the other woman, Hilda. Immediately, this does set them appart and make Hilda the black sheep, or as DM pointed out - "the black swan". Yet, Hilda is blameless as we find out as the story progresses; or is she?Quote:
I agree with Janine. Actually I thought the two lines were very important in showing how the family was regarded from the rest of the community. Look at the choice of words in the line. D.H. Lawrence used 'hastening' and 'scramble'. Both words show that the two women weren't just going home, but that they were already late and they wanted to reach home as soon as possible, not to make a dinner but to 'scramle' something for their husbands. Despite all that, they still took a moment to look at Hilda as she was passing by, and ton both gaze at her and then give each other a 'women's glance'.
I think this was the point of starting this story in this manor. It makes it clear from the beginning.Quote:
I really liked the comparison you made between the two women and the Rowbothams.
Even though the story was not about Hilda directly she did play a prominent role somehow in the story structure and the family, which we come to realize is quite dysfunctional.Quote:
Yeah, I agree. I really felt bad for Hilda, and at this point I was a bit curious about Hilda herself, only to find out later that the story wasn't really about her.
I didn't really think that actually. I think by showing that she was not 100% healthy showed that the family upkeep did take some sort of toll on her and in that way we do feel more sympathy for the woman at this point. I agree more with your last line. I am also reminded her of Lawrence's own mother for some reason with her demise. She died of cancer but I think she also had a heart condition. Don't quote me on that but I somehow was reminded of her and even the way in which Hilda dressed.Quote:
Don't you think that the description of Hilda and her heart condition didn't add much to the main story? Or maybe D.H. Lawrence wanted our sympathy towards Hilda, before we go in the Rowbotham house and see how dysfunctional they were?
I felt really bad for Hilda when she went to the bakery. I did think that he was an insensitive brute, since afterwards we learnt that Hilda herself wasn't the one who had an illigitimate child. I could almost picture her talking in a quick, nervous manner, as if unconsciously apologising for something that she didn't do. I was very curious as to why she was acting very nervous too. I had to re-read what she said (the things she ordered) to see if she maybe ordered something strange or anything...LOL.
Good idea, Nossa, One gets so much more out a second or even a third reading. Lawrence actually was an advocate of repeat readings. I read the story about 6 months ago, and then I read it right before I choose this story for the discussion, and then again the other day at breakfast. It goes along pretty quickly and somehow I have gotten better at getting into the of Lawrence's writing - it all seems very poetic to me now. I guess reading enough, Lawrence, as with Shakespeare, you get natually into the fluidity of the prose. I love it when I find that rhythm and can easily key into it.Quote:
I only read the story once, and never got the chance to re-read it. I'll do this today, and come back with more comments hopefully :D
I did not think of that. But that is a good point. I had wondered just why her illness had been pointed out, as it never seemed to be refered back to much if I recall, other than this opening line.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
I do not think it as a random detail. First it sets the scene, but second it suggests at one of the central conflicts of the story, that is male versuses female power and the diminsihing of male power.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
I too find the detail of Hilda's heart condition strange. First it seems really unlikely that a 20 something woman would have a heart problem, but other than the mention toward the end of the story about her heart "flutters" and "was in pain" it doesn't seem to figure much in the story. I don't think Lawrence wanted us to sympathize with Hilda. There is much he supplies that make us want to reject her.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nossa
This is why I would have liked a story discussion first before detailed analysis. I don't think anyone noticed my post on the bottom of page 147 here. The thread turned a new page after and I think people missed my point. I don't think we are in agreement as to what the story is about.
Virgil, you are getting to be bad, mad and dangerous. I did answer your post on page 147 - see my post #2208 on this page. I told you to comment in that post and then later in another post.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Oh so you did. I'm sorry. I didn't see it buried in that long post. Ok. Well, if you guys don't want to discuss the story as a whole, we can do without it. But from what I'm reading from the comments of all three of you I don't think you guys are seeing the same story as me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Now this will be my third time saying this - tell us what you are seeing; post some comments on the theme and the basic idea of the story. Virgil...hello... Since when did you and I not get along? I am easy and co-operative. We have been waiting for you to post some comments as a whole...at least I have been waiting. I didn't post any new text, did I?Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
:) Ok, ok. I will have to do it tomorrow. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
tomorrow....?:(...oh OK....:)Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Are you going to comment in the Tortoise poems soon?
I don't feel really well tonight and may knock off soon anyway.
I can't find that thread about the updates. I tried to change my blog settings and don't know why it won't go through, but you can try it again: maybe it did reset it.
Yes I will. I need to sit and read it carefully. I'm overwhelmed with lots going on. :sick:Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
I just emailed you. Sorry you are overwhelmed. I feel a bit that way myself currently, so take your time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Ok, here's my take on the story. I think the story is more about the daughters’s unnatural relationship with their father than about the Christening, though the Christening adds the religious overtone to the conflict. The daughters all exert their power over a decrepit old man, with Hilda’s schoolmistress personality opposing the old man’s natural, more blood conscious person. The men in the story are all either churlish (the baker, the son) or weak (the minister, the old man, the baby). All three of the women exert power, but the power is removed from nature: Hilda the schoolmistress, Bertha the bossy, and Emma the unmarried mother who rejects the father. The story is predominantly about this conflict, another of those Lawrence stories where women’s power leads to dysfunction.
Hurrah! You posted something, Virgil; I checked it last night, but I guess you were still busy and actually so was I. Ok, I would agree with all of the above. I think if familiar with Lawrence's other works one would see that right away. I did think the three woman prominent as compared with the impressions we get of the men in the story, even the brother, who actually becomes quite irritating. I think, that as we work through the story we will come up with other thoughts to add to this or to expound on what you have said here. I like the way you stated that - very precise and to the point (unlike some 'long-winded people we know, namely me;)).Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
If it is ok with you, leave your comment and this post for the others to read and comment on, and then tomorrow I will post more of the story; unless you wish to post some comments on the opening paragraphs, also. I have to go out late today into this evening, so that would work out well for me. Either that or I will post it later to night. Just let me know which to do.
Oh I'm glad you see it that way too. That sounds good to me. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Glad of it. Tomorrow I will post some more of the text to discuss. Too tired now - think I might watch a movie and relax.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Overall I agree with Virgil about the story, and I can definitely be seen in the household with the three sisters and broken down father, and childish brother. And it is funny as Janine had mentioned this story in some relation to Sons and Lovers, and reading this story did make me think of that book and Mr. Morel.
But there was one thing of which I was curious about.
Just how do the opening lines about the women rushing home to cook dinner for their husbands support and set up the theme of the declining power of men?Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Yeah, since when is rushing home nervously to get a husband's dinner on the table a sign of power?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
I think that counterpoints the dysfunctional aspect of the family at hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
If it counterpoints the dysfuncional family of the Rowbotham, then it's the other way around. If the two women are hurrying home to make dinner, then they're probably afraid that their husbands might get angry, which affirms the male domination. In the Rowbotham household, the father's role is almost absent. He's being treated harshly by his youngest daughter, and his middle daughter is the one who seems to be in charge. He's overall a weak character (like you stated in a previous post).Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Why would we want to reject Hilda?! How did Lawrence aim at that?Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Nossa,Glad to see you back posting in this thread. I have to agree with you and also with Dark Muse's comments. Hey, Virgil, I think you will be outnumbered this time, with 3 women against one guy - sorry;:lol: you better drag Quark back in here; although he might not yet have internet access in his new apartment.
I would have to agree and ask the same question.Quote:
Why would we want to reject Hilda?! How did Lawrence aim at that?
Maybe the wise thing to do, is to go ahead with the story, and then later consider all that has been said, to sum up the story. We really can't know the theme completely, until we discuss each part of the story and see just what the intentions of the author truly were. I think we should take the journey along with the author as he is developing his story. I know by my reading that Lawrence worked this way and so many times he wrote, then completely rewrote his story until he got it right. I don't think he just dashed this story off either; there were many rewrites so I am sure whatever he put into it was quite intentional and for a purpose.
I am posting a bit more of the text:
*********Quote:
She had the whole length of the main street to traverse, a half-mile of slow-stepping torture, with shame flushing over her neck. But she carried her white bag with an appearance of steadfast unconcern. When she turned into the field she seemed to droop a little. The wide valley opened out from her, with the far woods withdrawing into twilight, and away in the centre the great pit streaming its white smoke and chuffing as the men were being turned up. A full, rose-coloured moon, like a flamingo flying low under the far, dusky east, drew out of the mist. It was beautiful, and it made her irritable sadness soften, diffuse.
Across the field, and she was at home. It was a new, substantial cottage, built with unstinted hand, such a house as an old miner could build himself out of his savings. In the rather small kitchen a woman of dark, saturnine complexion sat nursing a baby in a long white gown; a young woman of heavy, brutal cast stood at the table, cutting bread and butter. She had a downcast, humble mien that sat unnaturally on her, and was strangely irritating. She did not look round when her sister entered. Hilda put down the bag of cakes and left the room, not having spoken to Emma, nor to the baby, not to Mrs Carlin, who had come in to help for the afternoon.
My comments:
I think in this first paragraph, Lawrence paints a vivid scene of the surrounding countryside. He contrasts the words well. If you notice the the color 'white' first seen in Hilda's white bag, 'white' again echoes in the description:
"the centre the great pit streaming its white smoke...."
Also, Hilda is described as "flushing over her neck", this later in the paragragh echoes in this phrase, which I find very beautiful and graphic...painterly..
"A full, rose-coloured moon, like a flamingo flying low under the far, dusky east, drew out of the mist."
Also, evident in the paragraph above, is the strain and stess physically, of her long walk homeward and yet though, it is a "slow-stepping torture", she has "an appearance of steadfast unconcern." I think this would be something familiar to Lawrence, with his own mother and her steadily declining health, and yet her 'steadfastness' to fight until the bitter end of life.Quote:
She had the whole length of the main street to traverse, a half-mile of slow-stepping torture, with shame flushing over her neck. But she carried her white bag with an appearance of steadfast unconcern. When she turned into the field she seemed to droop a little. The wide valley opened out from her, with the far woods withdrawing into twilight, and away in the centre the great pit streaming its white smoke and chuffing as the men were being turned up. A full, rose-coloured moon, like a flamingo flying low under the far, dusky east, drew out of the mist. It was beautiful, and it made her irritable sadness soften, diffuse.
Also, I notice the confines of the town with it's closed in 'gossipy' feeling (restrictive to Hilda), is now contrasted with her 'freer' journey homeward in these words
"the wide valley opened out from her, with the far woods withdrawing into twilight..."
The twilight also seems to be a 'foreshadowing' for the coming events of the story, being seen off in the distant of the "far woods".
"It was beautiful, and it made her irritable sadness soften, diffuse."
This line seems to foretell the coming events, as well, but goes beyond that and says to us how nature can sooth and soften the human body and soul - or as Lawrence used the words, "soften, diffuse" the "irritable sadness" Hilda is feeling during her long trip homeward. I say 'long', because, to a woman of poor health, this walk would seem to go on forever and be percieved as long and difficult to endure on a daily basis.
Just wanted to back track a little. Here's the exchange with the baker:
We learn later that the baker is the father of the child. What do you see in this exchange? Is he upset that he is shut out from Emma? I don't get the feeling he has abandoned Emma. But it's really not clear. I think this is the only failing of an otherwise a perfect story. I'm not sure what to think of the baker. I want to say that it's Emma who has left him but I'm not sure. What are your thoughts on Berryman?Quote:
She turned into Berryman's, the baker's. The shop displayed bread and cakes, sacks of flour and oatmeal, flitches of bacon, hams, lard and sausages. The combination of scents was not unpleasing. Hilda Rowbotham stood for some minutes nervously tapping and pushing a large knife that lay on the counter, and looking at the tall, glittering brass scales. At last a morose man with sandy whiskers came down the step from the house-place.
"What is it?" he asked, not apologizing for his delay.
"Will you give me six-pennyworth of assorted cakes and pastries--and put in some macaroons, please?" she asked, in remarkably rapid and nervous speech. Her lips fluttered like two leaves in a wind, and her words crowded and rushed like a flock of sheep at a gate.
"We've got no macaroons," said the man churlishly.
He had evidently caught that word. He stood waiting.
"Then I can't have any, Mr Berryman. Now I do feel disappointed. I like those macaroons, you know, and it's not often I treat myself. One gets so tired of trying to spoil oneself, don't you think? It's less profitable even than trying to spoil somebody else." She laughed a quick little nervous laugh, putting her hand to her face.
"Then what'll you have?" asked the man, without the ghost of an answering smile. He evidently had not followed, so he looked more glum than ever.
"Oh, anything you've got," replied the schoolmistress, flushing slightly. The man moved slowly about, dropping the cakes from various dishes one by one into a paper bag.
"How's that sister o' yours getting on?" he asked, as if he were talking to the flour scoop.
"Whom do you mean?" snapped the schoolmistress.
"The youngest," answered the stooping, pale-faced man, with a note of sarcasm.
"Emma! Oh, she's very well, thank you!" The schoolmistress was very red, but she spoke with sharp, ironical defiance. The man grunted. Then he handed her the bag and watched her out of the shop without bidding her "Good afternoon".
Within the moral framework of the story (not mine or yours or contemporary times) I think the women's subordination to their husbands is the norm and the willful women of the Rowbotham household are dysfunctional. The two women hurrying home is a strong contrast to the three daughters bossing their father around.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nossa
I think Lawrence rejects the learnedness of Hilda and the female domination of the household. The men in this story are reduced in power and stature and I don't think Lawrence approves. ;)Quote:
Why would we want to reject Hilda?! How did Lawrence aim at that?
Silly me, I did not know the father was the acutal baker, when it said that the father was baker's man, I had thought it meant that someone who worked for the baker was the father.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Yes I agree this does paint a very lovely scene of the country side. It was quite vivid, as well the open field seemed to contrast with the market place, the smoke offered a bit of welcome as she was nearing home and getting away from everyone.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
I think it also shows how prideful and determined she is. The way in which she carries the bag. It also makes an interesting contrast. As we no from before she is dressed in black, which would seem to make the white of the bag stand out even more.
I really like the line
When I read this, it made it seem as if Hilda herself was like a flower when she entered the field. It made me think of a wilting flower.Quote:
When she turned into the field she seemed to droop a little.
I wonder if the torture of her walk home was just from her declining health and illness, or part of it was also brought on by her sense of shame, though she herself did not do anything wrong, she feels the guilt of her family, and as with the women in the beginning, as the way she is flushed with shame, and the encounter with the baker, it is as if she can feel everyone watching her, and their thoughts about her and her family situation. So she feels under scrutiny when she is in town.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
It's good to see the Lawrence thread is back up and running. I'll read the story tomorrow and try to catch up with the conversation.
Seems I always just mention your name and there you are - what? do you have ESP Quark? :alien:;):lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Quark
I noticed that, too. I'll have to think more about the significance of the colors, though. I'm not quite sure what to make of the recurring whiteness. Also, we might want to think about the red moon as well. That image seems to be the heart of that scene.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
Yes, it does seem to draw attention to that moon - flamingo colored; I thought of the first part, when L mentions the flush on Hilda's face - I think that corresponds visually to the moon, both a sort of pink or blush color. I feel this whole paragragh indicates the close relationship humans have to nature and how nature can sooth even the most distressed person, even if only temporarily.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quark