I do not think Severn is that innocent, he might be unexeperince, but he was perfectly aware of his sexual tension with Mrs. Thomas.
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I do not think Severn is that innocent, he might be unexeperince, but he was perfectly aware of his sexual tension with Mrs. Thomas.
My goodness. How did you guys get so far. I've yet to read it a second time. I guess I'll have to do that tonight.
We are not that far, Virgil; I only posted the first part of the text. I would like to move on soon.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Seems now we are debating any sexual tension between Severn and Kate. I don't think he is oblivious to the fact she is quite lovely and developing into a desirable woman, but I don't think truly there is 'sexual tension', no more than would be natural between two young people at that age, viewing a night sky together and the impending storm. I thought if anything, the fact they stood side by side indicated they were on level footing at this part of the story.
Antiquarian, You said "I didn't see any sexual tension there because Severn was too ironic with Kate for that." I think saying he was 'too ironic' is exaggerating a little. If you read the line, all it says is ""Sorry you're going?" he asked, with a faint tang of irony." - 'a faint tang of irony'. How do you feel he is being too ironic towards Kate, if it is that subtle?
You said "I got the impression she was angry with the lot of them." How differently we see this part; I got no such feeling about her towards Severn, I thought she rather liked him and was affable towards him. I can see how she would feel rejected and angry with Mr. and Mrs. Thomas but Severn does not seem one bit responsible for her being put out. He seems to feel badly about it from the start; later he proves that with his mental statement saying it is such a shame, that it was over one little thing; this we can only guess at or conjecture about. Could be a number of things but mostly I am veering towards Mrs. Thomas' jealousy - not yet decided in how that manifested itself.
Quark, You said:
"I think it's ironic for the second reason you brought up. He's ironic because she probably does want to leave anyway. The maid's answer also makes it seem like she's at least partly glad to be leaving."
Yes, that is sort of what I was thinking of. Also maybe ironic because like I said before she may not have fully liked working there but a young woman in her position would not have a lot of choices.
Whenever all are ready we might move onward to the next part of the story. How bout you, Virgil? Can I post the part with the baby?
I agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiquarian
Yes, and apparently some small incident occurred or something we are never privy to. Later on in the parlour we do get some conversation revealing a little bit more about her and how Mrs. Thomas feels about her. I won't post that yet but I just read the conversation over and thought it interesting - some subtext there, too.Quote:
I think it was probably Mrs. Thomas who wanted Kate gone, now that she was maturing into a lovely woman who might possibly attract the attention of Severn or Mr. Thomas.
Antiquarian, I like that word now. :lol:
I really don't think she is angry with Severn and we don't know if he could stick up for her or has. There is a little bit revealed in that conversation but then again that is just conjucture, in reading between the lines.Quote:
Kate just seems angry to me, not that I blame her, especially if she has nowhere to go. She might very well be angry with Severn for not sticking up for her more if indeed, he didn't. We know he thinks Mrs. Thomas' reasons are trivial because he says something to that effect later on, but we don't know if that's the extent of his protestation or not.
Antiquarian, I may see how you formed your opinion that Kate was angry at them all; but I did not get the same impression, when I read it first or second time or even now; I did get the impression Kate was unhappy leaving and angry about the fact she had to go; I think that Severn bringing it up to her only reinforced her anger of the event, not of Severn. There is actually a lot of anger in this story, but all of it is contained, underlying, until that fateful moment the box falls on Mr.Thomas, when Severn slips on the stairs; then anger is finally expressed.Quote:
When Severn says, "A troublesome sort of evening; must be because it's your last with us."
Kate says, "Yes," said the girl, flushing and hardening.
Then later: The maid stood for a few moments clenching her young fists, clenching her very breast in revolt. Then she closed the door.
That's why I felt she was angry with all of them. (I don't know how one clenches her breast. I tried to do it and I couldn't. LOL)
Yeah our pokey Virgil is something; he comes in all the time now to say 'we sure have progressed and he will have to work to catch up'. Then poof, where is he? I will summons him and he will appear; you wait and see. He is somewhere in Aenied-Land I believe. That discussion will go on forever!Quote:
I'm ready to move on as soon as slow poke (Virgil) is. (Joking, don't want him to get mad at me.)
I am only poking gentle fun at him, too. What would we do without him?
Ok, I will try and post more text tomorrow, although I am going to a graduation party in the afternoon and may go and see my baby granddaughter in the evening. I hope to post sometime in-between or later. Sorry to hold everyone up. I am tripping over books that need to be put away and can't even find my sofa, presently. I will be back soon as I can.
:lol: Well, I have gone philosophical tonight. I decided to have a little scotch tonight and I was in the mood to be abstract. :D O I was goig to reread the story tonight when I got into bed and catch up tomorrow.Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiquarian
I'll drink to that.
:lol: I wonder what that is about? I will have to take a quick peak. I bet he is all philosophical. He seems to like those kinds of threads; are ladies invited into that one or is it exculsive to men? Virgil is always philosphocial, or tries to be. Isn't that why he picked the user name, 'Virgil'?Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiquarian
:lol: he does; he's a good heart.Quote:
I'm just poking fun at him, too. He takes it so well.
I don't know if I am that enthused now - it is going to be awfully hot here and humid and the party is indeed outside, although we can wander in. I have a feeling there will be a lot of people doing that.Quote:
I hope you enjoy the graduation party (going to be hot and humid again, hope it's inside) and I hope you get to see your granddaughter and have a nice visit.
I hope to see my granddaughter, but nothing is set yet; we'll see.
I know, you are anxious and sure everyone else is. Sorry to hold you all up. I would have posted it earlier but got tied up with moving the stuff for the AC guy; now I am really tired out and it is already after midnight.Quote:
I'm ready to talk about Severn's encounter with the Thomas' little girl, though. I have a lot to say about that. ;) When everyone else is ready, of course. It's not like I don't have anything to do, it's more like I keep procrastinating. LOL (That wasn't a criticism of anyone but me, it was a criticism of me for procrastinating, though I did lay out some scenes for a new story today. Oh, wow. LOL But that's more than I have been doing.)
Antiquarian, your story sounds good, so try and work on that, have a nice ice-tea on the veranda and enjoy the hot weather tomorrow, until I get back. Have a fun summery day!
Oops, look who is down below...didn't I say he would arrive soon...he definitely has ESP besides being Mr. philosophical.....
Yes, scotch will do it everytime! Hey, V, you are abstract :goof: enough sober.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
If you are drinking scotch now, you will fall asleep one page into the story. :yawnb:
Well, my plan is to post more text tomorrow sometimes - could be late but I will try my best.
:lol: :wave: Hi Quasi, aren't there enough alchy's in here tonight.:lol:Quote:
I'll drink to that.
Yeah, really....Anti...time will tell....promises, promises!Quote:
A likely story. We will see how this pans out tomorrow.
:lol:You wino, you! Well, very pleased to meet you, 'Antiquarian!' Will the real Antiquarian please stand up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiquarian
:lol: I found that so funny actually, though I'm not sure it was meant to be funny. The notion of wearing white carrying a tennis racket seems so school boyish to me. It's certainly meant to imply something and the only thing I can think of is youth, adolescent. His mocking of Kate while underneath empathizing reveals a sort of childishness, immaturity, an inability to express real feelings. I think somewhere else he's described as diffident. Even his interaction with the child shows his immaturity, or at least puts him on the same level as the child.Quote:
The man she opened to was tall and thin, but graceful in his energy. He wore white flannels, carried a tennis-racket.
Good point Quark. I didn't pick that up. The mock fight with the child I believe mirrors the climatic one. That too is a parallel. There are parallels that are laid out between these desparate scenes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quark
I agree with your first statement Anti; there isn't overt sexual tension between Kate and Severen that I could see. Except for the very fact that Lawrence makes a point of her sexual attractiveness, and that has to be considered. As to the second statement, I think that's where the subtext has to be interpreted. Given the sexual dynamics that are going on, one has to conclude that underlying whatever surface motive they gave to let Kate go, the unconscious firing of Kate has to have been because of her sexual threat to Mrs. Thomas. The same sort of subtext I think has to be used in understanding the fight between Severn and Mr. Thomas; the provided reason is just a surface rationale for a deeper reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiquarian
Yes, this is how I saw the general reationships.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
I completely agree about Severn not seeing the sexual tension. Hahaha. But for Lawrence there is an unconscious.Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiquarian
I agree with you analysis of Kate. Yes I've caught up and we can move on. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiquarian
One last thought on the thunder and lightning. I think it was mentioned that it foreshadows the fight, but it does one other thing, it suggests the sort of electricity that hangs about from the sexual tensions that are going on. Just like static electricity is an unseen force, so are the unconscious sexual anxieties.
Just a side not. Janine is aware of this but let me make it clear for everyone else. I don't buy into 90% of this psychobabble. These are just ideas from the early 20th century. Unfortunately many people even today buy into them. I'm just attempting to understand Lawrence, not project my views into the text.
On the second rereading I probably don't think as highly of this story as I initially did. It's very well written, chracterization-wise and the drawing of scenes. But I think there is too much of a leap of faith (all the subtext stuff) that one has to make that makes the themes somewhat tenuous. We could get into that later.Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiquarian
No question that whether there is tension between Kate and Severn is questionable. I can't see it overtly either. But given that a lot of the story is subtext and given the sexual electricity between several of the characters and given that Kate is so sensual and beautiful, I jump to this assumption. It seems like it's suggested.Quote:
Still, I don't see any sexual tension between Severn and Kate. LOL A lot of women can be insanely jealous of an attractive, or even an unattractive woman, and still know there's absolutely no sexual threat to any man she cares about coming from that woman. I feel this is how Mrs. Thomas felt about Kate. I think Mrs. Thomas just wanted to be the "Queen Bee." I could be wrong, of course, but I don't think there's sexual tension. ;) I honestly don't think it matters if there's sexual tension or not.
I did bring up that suggestion in one of my earlier posts aout the the ligtening, and the tension that elerctircal storms cause in the air, refeclting the tensions within the house.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Yes, you did Dark Muse; I think I commented on what you said, also. I know the electrical storm and tension were mentioned a page or so back.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
Of course, there are always going to be better stories, and worse ones, as well; some will be more developed and whether we like them or not is really individual. I choose this current story because I was looking for a simplier one and this one seemed to strike a cord with me. It is a young work, but even with that it does excell compared to some other early works by others. As L said about his "Sons and Lovers" - it is an early work and I will never write just like this again. I find all of L's works fascinating, even though I could rate some better than others; I try not to compare them though because they all seem different to me. Maybe at the end of discussing all the stories we care to on this thread - we could indeed have a sticky poll and rate the stories we have discussed. That might be fun. It would only show what the majority here liked but that may be helpful.
So with this comparatively simple story, if you add in all the assumptions and the subtext, to a huge degree, this story will take on many complications and become more complex than you first though.
Hey, Virgil, I thought you said to me we might be 'over analysising' these stories - going too deeply into them. I didn't personally agree with that idea, but maybe we can make too many blind assumptions about this story, also. When I picked this one, I mainly was interested in the shift in the story between loyalties between the three main characters; husband, wife, and young man. Often these type of situations have surfaced in L's work. In "Sons and Lovers' there was Clara, her husband and Paul, if you recall and in the end Paul and the husband formed a similar bond. I am just trying to say, that when I chose the story this was my concentration. I liked the other elements in the story as well. I did not think anything really sexual about Kate or the baby scene but I will be anxious to hear what all of you have to say about it.
Virgil, thanks for posting so we can move on. I see you got over your scotch and are back to comparable normalacy today. :lol: I read some of your philosphophical thread and got totally confused after awhile; I guess I needed a wine or scotch to understand it all. Too heavy for me.
I will post this part of the text, since I have to go out most of the day. I need to go get ready now. You can all talk about it up to this point since you are all so anxious and I will comment later on.
Next Part of the Text:
It stoped before the child and Severn goes into the house - this is just the garden scene. That should keep you all busy for awhile and I can easily catch up later tonight. Have fun.Quote:
Edward Severn went into the dining-room. It was eight o'clock, very dark for a June evening; on the dusk-blue walls only the gilt frames of the pictures glinted pale. The clock occupied the room with its delicate ticking.
The door opened into a tiny conservatory that was lined with a grapevine. Severn could hear, from the garden beyond, the high prattling of a child. He went to the glass door.
Running down the grass by the flower-border was a little girl of three, dressed in white. She was very bonny, very quick and intent in her movements; she reminded him of a fieldmouse which plays alone in the corn, for sheer joy. Severn lounged in the doorway, watching her. Suddenly she perceived him. She started, flashed into greeting, gave a little gay jump, and stood quite still again, as if pleading.
"Mr. Severn," she cried, in wonderfully coaxing tones: "Come and see this."
"What?" he asked.
"Com' and see it," she pleaded.
He laughed, knowing she only wanted to coax him into the garden; and he went.
"Look," she said, spreading out her plump little arm.
"What?" he asked.
The baby was not going to admit that she had tricked him thither for her amusement.
"All gone up to buds," she said, pointing to the closed marigolds. Then "See!" she shrieked, flinging herself at his legs, grasping the flannel of his trousers, and tugging at him wildly. She was a wild little Mænad. She flew shrieking like a revelling bird down the garden, glancing back to see if he were coming. He had not the heart to desist, but went swiftly after her. In the obscure garden, the two white figures darted through the flowering plants, the baby, with her full silk skirts, scudding like a ruffled bird, the man, lithe and fleet, snatching her up and smothering his face in hers. And all the time her piercing voice reechoed from his low calls of warning and of triumph as he hunted her. Often she was really frightened of him; then she clung fast round his neck, and he laughed and mocked her in a low, stirring voice, whilst she protested.
The garden was large for a London suburb. It was shut in by a high dark embankment, that rose above a row of black poplar trees. And over the spires of the trees, high up, slid by the golden-lighted trains, with the soft movement of caterpillars and a hoarse, subtle noise.
Oh I'm sorry D-M. I must have missed that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
Yes that is interesting, and I do find the characterization and the fleshing out of the narrative very well handled. It does show someone incredibly skilled.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
No, I don't think your wrong at all. The tension is there; it's just not explicitly stated at the beginning. It's created through the tone of their conversation and the development of the plot. There's a flirtatousness in the tone, and the conflict later in the story really changes our opinion of their relationship. Immediately after the fight between the husband and Severn has been resolved, Lawrence reminds the reader that Kate's being thrown out--alsost as if to say "Look! it's happening over here, too."Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiquarian
The child is a tease. She toys with Severn just as the mother does. The language in this section is just like in the previous story where there was a similar seduction going on. The man, of course, walks blithely into the trap again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiquarian
That is an interesting observation, the way in which Severn is always stumbling in these "sexual" or "seductive" traps of the women, though of course the child is not at this age being "sexual" intentionally, but there is an implication within her behavior and the way she acts, though I do not think Sever's actions and feelings toward the child are in any way unnatural or inappropriate, there is an implication upon Severn's situation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quark
When I have the time I will coment on the rest of the text.
What catches my eye is that description of the little girls, and I believe Lawrence repeats it later on.Quote:
She was a wild little Mænad.
From Webster's:
andQuote:
Main Entry: mae·nad
Pronunciation: \ˈmē-ˌnad\
Function: noun
Etymology: Latin maenad-, maenas, from Greek mainad-, mainas, from mainesthai to be mad; akin to Greek menos spirit — more at mind
Date: 1579
1 : bacchante
2 : an unnaturally excited or distraught woman
What's the significance? I think it suggests her primitive naturalness, a wild freedom prior to society layering people with conventions. Notice that she's the only one associated with a pagan diety. The others are associated with Judaism, Protestism, and Catholicism.Quote:
Main Entry: bac·chante
Pronunciation: \bə-ˈkant, -ˈkänt; -ˈkan-tē, -ˈkän-\
Function: noun
Etymology: French, from Latin bacchant-, bacchans
Date: 1579
: a priestess or female follower of Bacchus
Yes I found it interesting that the child was portrayed as a little heathen, and especially being that Bacchus was the most hedonistic of the Pagan gods.
He would really be the complete extreme in contrast to Catholicism and Prostatism
I love the description in this passage, and I really liked his use of the word delicate ticking. The word delicate could have more than one meaning here. As the whole balance of the house is quite delicate we late come to see. As well it suggests a certain quiet, and unobtrusiveness, this perhaps is almost the clam before the storm.Quote:
Edward Severn went into the dining-room. It was eight o'clock, very dark for a June evening; on the dusk-blue walls only the gilt frames of the pictures glinted pale. The clock occupied the room with its delicate ticking.
I noticed reading this story, the colors white and yellow seem to crop up a lot, and I was curious about this, as here it points out that the girl is wearing a white dress, and Severn, says it makes him think of a mouse playing in the corn. I love how the sort of free, wildness of the child is captures, with her quick movements and flashing greeting.Quote:
Running down the grass by the flower-border was a little girl of three, dressed in white. She was very bonny, very quick and intent in her movements; she reminded him of a fieldmouse which plays alone in the corn, for sheer joy. Severn lounged in the doorway, watching her. Suddenly she perceived him. She started, flashed into greeting, gave a little gay jump, and stood quite still again, as if pleading.
Here he knows that he is being tricked, and yet he walks right into it anyway. Perhaps in some regaurds he does the same with Mrs. Thomas, maybe he knows she is just trying to cause trouble, and yet he cannot stop himself from partaking in it.Quote:
"Mr. Severn," she cried, in wonderfully coaxing tones: "Come and see this."
"What?" he asked.
"Com' and see it," she pleaded.
He laughed, knowing she only wanted to coax him into the garden; and he went.
"Look," she said, spreading out her plump little arm.
"What?" he asked.
I found it interesting how she was constnatly refered to as simply "the baby" when everyone else is given a name, though her mother calls her by name once, other than that she is always only the baby.Quote:
The baby was not going to admit that she had tricked him thither for her amusement
Once more bird imagery is used. First to describe Severn and now here in reference to the girl. Also I found it interesting how they are said to be "two white figures"Quote:
She flew shrieking like a revelling bird down the garden, glancing back to see if he were coming. He had not the heart to desist, but went swiftly after her. In the obscure garden, the two white figures darted through the flowering plants, the baby, with her full silk skirts, scudding like a ruffled bird, the man, lithe and fleet, snatching her up and smothering his face in hers.
Though I still do not think I would say there was sexual tension between Severn and the child but these lines I did find to be a bit currious, and even somewhat odd.Quote:
And all the time her piercing voice reechoed from his low calls of warning and of triumph as he hunted her. Often she was really frightened of him; then she clung fast round his neck, and he laughed and mocked her in a low, stirring voice, whilst she protested.
The way in which he is said to be hunting her, and than it says:
I did wonder just what that was about.Quote:
Often she was really frightened of him;
I loved this passage, and the imagery and desciptions used here.Quote:
The garden was large for a London suburb. It was shut in by a high dark embankment, that rose above a row of black poplar trees. And over the spires of the trees, high up, slid by the golden-lighted trains, with the soft movement of caterpillars and a hoarse, subtle noise.
Becasue we love pictures over here, I could not resist this painting by Monet, of Poplar trees
http://www.artsupply.com/artservices...net%5B1%5D.jpg
Interesting on the colors. I can't think of any significance. Perhaps just Lawrence trying to be visual.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
You guys keep saying he's tricked by Mrs Thomas. What did I miss? I don't recall she tricking him.Quote:
Here he knows that he is being tricked, and yet he walks right into it anyway. Perhaps in some regaurds he does the same with Mrs. Thomas, maybe he knows she is just trying to cause trouble, and yet he cannot stop himself from partaking in it.
Hmm, the bird imagery is interesting. I can't think of its significance.Quote:
Once more bird imagery is used. First to describe Severn and now here in reference to the girl. Also I found it interesting how they are said to be "two white figures"
To me, given that there is sexual tension in the air and given the licking games between them and given he undresses her, I have to suspect there is an unconscious sexual tension that Lawrence is implying.Quote:
Though I still do not think I would say there was sexual tension between Severn and the child but these lines I did find to be a bit currious, and even somewhat odd.
Perhaps for Mrs. Thomas tricked is too strong a word, but she does play Severn and Mr. Thoams against each other, when Severn and Mr. Thomas are having thier political debate over the supper table, Mrs. Thomas, takes sides with her husband, becasue she knows if she were to take Severn's side, he would be gentle with Mr. Thomas.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Quote:
Mrs. Thomas meanwhile took her husband's side against women, without reserve. Severn was angry; he was scornfully angry with her. Mrs. Thomas glanced at him from time to time, a little ectasy lighting her fine blue eyes. The ironly of her part was delicious to her. If she had sided with Severn, that young man would have pitited the forlorn man, and been gentle with him.
Ok, thanks. ;)
You may be onto something Anti. Lawrence would use colors in that fashion later in life. Perhaps he may have been using them all along and I never noticed. Thanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiquarian
It's amazing how much of my Lawrence expertise increases by discussing these stories with all you outstanding readers. :)
I find it interesting that the "Pagan" of the group, the child, who could be cast as Eve, particularly sense she is seen within the gardens, is named Mary of all things, the Virgin.
Or perhaps she is meant to be more Mary Magdalene.
Though I still disagree with Virgil about sexual tension between the child and Severn, I still think it was present between Severn and Kate
Yes, and I read that he was doing a lot of painting at this time when he wrote this story. I think Lawrence often uses white; it can signify purity and a certain innocense; a purity before the world's tainting perhaps; a kind of departure back into the purity of the past and the pagan world. It brings to mind a passage in "The White Peacock" in the woods when they all come across wild snowdrops. I will have to look that up and post that passage and it may give you some insight into the idea of white and what it meant to L. It also, could mean a kind of virginal whiteness - the purity of the child and the young man's purity at this point in his life - maybe the purity of Adam, before Eve tempted him with the apple. Also, if you notice, this scene takes place in a garden.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
You know, I don't understand that either; really, it is jumping way aheard of the text that I posted. Can we hold up on that till we get to the conversation between Mrs. Thomas and Severn alone in the parlour?Quote:
You guys keep saying he's tricked by Mrs Thomas. What did I miss? I don't recall she tricking him.
I found this poem online today. I think it is interesting and relates somehow:Quote:
Hmm, the bird imagery is interesting. I can't think of its significance.
I believe this story was based on Lawrence's time as a border at the home of Mr. and Mrs. J.W.Jones. I stated this earlier in my introduction.Quote:
This is one of a group of poems inspired apparently by Hilda Mary, the baby daughter of Mr. and Mrs. J.W.Jones, at whose house Lawrence lodged when he was teaching at Croydon.
A Baby Running Barefoot
When the bare feet of the baby beat across the grass
The little white feet nod like white flowers in the wind,
They poise and run like ripples lapping across the water;
And the sight of their white play among the grass
Is like a little robin’s song, winsome,
Or as two white butterflies settle in the cup of one flower
For a moment, then away with a flutter of wings.
I long for the baby to wander hither to me
Like a wind-shadow wandering over the water,
So that she can stand on my knee
With her little bare feet in my hands,
Cool like syringa buds,
Firm and silken like pink young peony flowers.
I think this poem is quite innocent and I sm surprised actually at some of your seeing sexual connotations to do with the child in the story. I think only in the way the child might be beginning to imitate adults and thus is breaking out of the inate 'purity' she would have been born with. It does not say how old the child is, but if Severn is thinking, soon she will be too old for him to undress, then she has some learned behavior, by her age. Children learn by what they see; this would maybe even explain, these little games she is playing with Severn. The 'teasing' would be something she would have learned from adults, by observing them.
I just don't see that; first off, there is no licking games between them. The baby is doing the licking and teasing, not Severn. I do see that he feels uncomforable with the child, now that she is growing older and doing such things. He probably realises he will have to let go of her, as she leaves her innocence behind and accept her as no longer being 'a baby'. Even though, she is referred to, continually, in the story as 'the baby', actually she is growing up into a child and will be leaving her babyhood and untouched purity (whiteness) behind her eventually. As a baby, she is pure and sexless in a way; as she grows she takes on her womanhood. Severn must know that soon this will be the case and he can no longer have the intimacy with the baby/child.Quote:
To me, given that there is sexual tension in the air and given the licking games between them and given he undresses her, I have to suspect there is an unconscious sexual tension that Lawrence is implying.
I am kind of tired, so I hope all that makes sense.
Yes Anti made a good association with the colors.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
The poem does seem like it relates to the story. Good find Janine.Quote:
I found this poem online today. I think it is interesting and relates somehow:
When and where was he a border? Was that in London?Quote:
I believe this story was based on Lawrence's time as a border at the home of Mr. and Mrs. J.W.Jones. I stated this earlier in my introduction.
well, the very fact that he's uncomfortable suggests sexual tension. Perhaps I should define it not as learing lust but an awareness of the sexual implications of what's going on. Or something like that. I did not have scotch tonight, but a couple of glasses of Chiante. :DQuote:
I think this poem is quite innocent and I sm surprised actually at some of your seeing sexual connotations to do with the child in the story. I think only in the way the child might be beginning to imitate adults and thus is breaking out of the inate 'purity' she would have been born with. It does not say how old the child is, but if Severn is thinking, soon she will be too old for him to undress, then she has some learned behavior, by her age. Children learn by what they see; this would maybe even explain, these little games she is playing with Severn. The 'teasing' would be something she would have learned from adults, by observing them.
I just don't see that; first off, there is no licking games between them. The baby is doing the licking and teasing, not Severn. I do see that he feels uncomforable with the child, now that she is growing older and doing such things. He probably realises he will have to let go of her, as she leaves her innocence behind and accept her as no longer being 'a baby'. Even though, she is referred to, continually, in the story as 'the baby', actually she is growing up into a child and will be leaving her babyhood and untouched purity (whiteness) behind her eventually. As a baby, she is pure and sexless in a way; as she grows she takes on her womanhood. Severn must know that soon this will be the case and he can no longer have the intimacy with the baby/child.
Oh D-M that was good on the suggestion of the garden of eden. I had not thought of that.
I wonder if there is an actual definition. :lol: :lol: I'll see if I can look it up. I don't think the child feels any sexual tension, though it could be implied as being in her subconscious.
Edit: Goodness gracious, you're right Anti. There's an actual Wiki entry for sexual tension:
Quote:
Sexual tension is a plot element employed in works of fiction wherein two or more of the characters sexually long for one another, but the consummation is postponed or never occurs. This longing is often suggested by incidents of intimacy; for instance, when two characters are alone, are physically close, but desire is never explicitly expressed. It also might be suggested in dialogue, as in, for example, a subtle reference to a character's feelings. Sometimes, displays of hostility are used to hide secret attraction, or to deflect true but inconvenient romantic feelings.
The device creates a direction for the plot: toward a resolution. Alternatively, it might create a subplot that may or may not be resolved.
The device, when used by a skilled writer, evokes tension in the audience on account of this private knowledge. In a generic movie, by contrast, sexual tension is often employed and then concluded with a love scene. Soap operas in particular, rely heavily on sexual tension between characters to extend storylines, and maintain interest.
It is important to note that many popular television shows, such as NBC's Friends and Frasier, suffered declining ratings and subsequent cancellation, once the sexual tension between the main characters was dissolved. This was usually achieved when the characters married, entered an ongoing sexual relationship or had a child.
Sexual tension can be a normal part of human sexuality in day to day life. It is particularly common in the workplace, where many people work together in close proximity and develop an attraction to each other, but are unable to pursue a connection for any number of reasons.
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_tension"
Ok I concede. Based on the definition above there is no sexual tension. There must be another word then for what I mean. :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiquarian
Did you mean Anti or me, Janine - my quote was above this remark?Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Thanks, there are few other baby poems and they also are lovely and revealing. I will look them up; I could not find them online.Quote:
The poem does seem like it relates to the story. Good find Janine.
I posted this earlier but you can read more about that in my introduction page to this story:Quote:
... where was he a border? Was that in London?
"This is one of a group of poems inspired apparently by Hilda Mary, the baby daughter of Mr. and Mrs. J.W.Jones, at whose house Lawrence lodged when he was teaching at Croydon."
Interesting, the real baby is Hilda Mary and in this story he calls her just Mary. Croydon, I believe is a superb or section of London. You can probably find photos online of the exact house. In reality Lawrence was attracted to his landlady. It is strange because in the play I just bought, I felt the young man character was representative of Lawrence, and that play may have been written to represent the same sort of triangle, even though the young man in the play is not a border, just a friend to the wife.
I don't think it is sexual tension either. I think it takes two for that sort of thing and Severn does not see the child in any kind of sexual light. He is only observing that soon she will be too old for him to undress. That would be a natural thought. I think all of you people are seeing too many movies with pedefiles and sick people lately. I don't think 'sexual tension' was Lawrence's intention here at all.Quote:
well, the very fact that he's uncomfortable suggests sexual tension. Perhaps I should define it not as learing lust but an awareness of the sexual implications of what's going on. Or something like that. I did not have scotch tonight, but a couple of glasses of Chiante. :D
Maybe we both were thinking in the same vain since I mentioned it too; I just post slower.Quote:
Oh D-M that was good on the suggestion of the garden of eden. I had not thought of that.
Quotes by Antiquarian
Thanks for pointing out she was a three year old. That would be about right then to think of no longer undressing/dressing her.Quote:
Lawrence states that Mary is three-years-old, Janine:
Running down the grass by the flower-border was a little girl of three, dressed in white.
I'm one who sees zero sexual tension in the scene in the garden between Edward and Mary. I see it as all innocence, though Mary is an Eve-in-the making.
I think she asks Edward to put her to bed because before the Fall, Adam and Eve were not ashamed of their nakedness, remember? I'm not sure they even knew they were nude. It was just the natural way to be. It was only after the fall that they became ashamed, as Edward is, not exactly ashamed, but more modest. He's grown up enough to know about sin. Mary isn't. Mary is still innocent, so she's not embarrassed by things such as nudity or the licking of Edward's face. It's just natural fun to her, not something sexual.
I agree, Antiquarian, with everything else you wrote here.
Thanks, Antiquarian, that is good; I think that is an accurate way of paraphrasing it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiquarian
I guess I should post more of the story now; what do you think?
Next Part of the Text:
Note: we can probably comment on this fairly quickly and then move on; since we did comment on some of it already.Quote:
Mrs. Thomas stood in the dark doorway watching the night, the trains, the flash and run of the two white figures.
"And now we must go in," she heard Severn say.
"No," cried the baby, wild and defiant as a bacchanal. She clung to him like a wild-cat.
"Yes," he said. "Where's your mother?"
"Give me a swing," demanded the child.
He caught her up. She strangled him hard with her young arms.
"I said, where's your mother?" he persisted, half smothered.
"She's op'tairs," shouted the child. "Give me a swing."
"I don't think she is," said Severn.
"She is. Give me a swing, a swi-i-ing!"
He bent forward, so that she hung from his neck like a great pendant. Then he swung her, laughing low to himself while she shrieked with fear. As she slipped he caught her to his breast.
"Mary!" called Mrs. Thomas, in that low, songful tone of a woman when her heart is roused and happy.
"Mary!" she called, long and sweet.
"Oh, no!" cried the child quickly.
But Severn bore her off. Laughing, he bowed his head and offered to the mother the baby who clung round his neck.
"Come along here," said Mrs. Thomas roguishly, clasping the baby's waist with her hands.
"Oh, no," cried the child, tucking her head into the young man's neck.
"But it's bed-time," said the mother.
She laughed as she drew at the child to pull her loose from Severn. The baby clung tighter, and laughed, feeling no determination in her mother's grip. Severn bent his head to loosen the child's hold, bowed, and swung the heavy baby on his neck. The child clung to him, bubbling with laughter; the mother drew at her baby, laughing low, while the man swung gracefully, giving little jerks of laughter.
"Let Mr. Severn undress me," said the child, hugging close to the young man, who had come to lodge with her parents when she was scarce a month old.
"You're in high favour to-night," said the mother to Severn. He laughed, and all three stood a moment watching the trains pass and repass in the sky beyond the garden-end. Then they went indoors, and Severn undressed the child.
She was a beautiful girl, a bacchanal with her wild, dull-gold hair tossing about like a loose chaplet, her hazel eyes shining daringly, her small, spaced teeth glistening in little passions of laughter within her red, small mouth. The young man loved her. She was such a little bright wave of wilfulness, so abandoned to her impulses, so white and smooth as she lay at rest, so startling as she flashed her naked limbs about. But she was growing too old for a young man to undress.
She sat on his knee in her high-waisted night-gown, eating her piece of bread-and-butter with savage little bites of resentment: she did not want to go to bed. But Severn made her repeat a Pater Noster. She lisped over the Latin, and Mrs. Thomas, listening, flushed with pleasure; although she was a Protestant, and although she deplored the unbelief of Severn, who had been a Catholic.
The mother took the baby to carry her to bed. Mrs. Thomas was thirty-four years old, full-bosomed and ripe. She had dark hair that twined lightly round her low, white brow. She had a clear complexion, and beautiful brows, and dark-blue eyes. The lower part of her face was heavy.
"Kiss me," said Severn to the child.
He raised his face as he sat in the rocking-chair. The mother stood beside, looking down at him, and holding the laughing rogue of a baby against her breast. The man's face was uptilted, his heavy brows set back from the laughing tenderness of his eyes, which looked dark, because the pupil was dilated. He pursed up his handsome mouth, his thick close-cut moustache roused.
He was a man who gave tenderness, but who did not ask for it. All his own troubles he kept, laughingly, to himself. But his eyes were very sad when quiet, and he was too quick to understand sorrow, not to know it.
Mrs. Thomas watched his fine mouth lifted for kissing. She leaned forward, lowering the baby, and suddenly, by a quick change in his eyes, she knew he was aware of her heavy woman's breasts approaching down to him. The wild rogue of a baby bent her face to his, and then, instead of kissing him, suddenly licked his cheek with her wet, soft tongue. He started back in aversion, and his eyes and his teeth flashed with a dangerous laugh.
"No, no," he laughed, in low strangled tones. "No dog-lick, my dear, oh no!"
The baby chuckled with glee, gave one wicked jerk of laughter, that came out like a bubble escaping.
He put up his mouth again, and again his face was horizontal below the face of the young mother. She looked down on him as if by a kind of fascination.
"Kiss me, then," he said with thick throat.
The mother lowered the baby. She felt scarcely sure of her balance. Again the child, when near to his face, darted out her tongue to lick him. He swiftly averted his face, laughing in his throat.
Mrs. Thomas turned her face aside; she would see no more.
"Come then," she said to the child. "If you won't kiss Mr. Severn nicely--"
The child laughed over the mother's shoulder like a squirrel crouched there. She was carried to bed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
No, I don't think there's sexual tension between them, but at the same I don't believe Mary is innocent. There is tension and conflict between the two of them. Severn wants affection from the girl, but Mary merely wants to play with the older man. The bachanal allusion helps characterize Mary as a pleasure-seeker, but her actions do so more. She demands to be swung and then teases Severn when he wants a kiss. I think we were right when we called her a temptress and tease before. It's just that she's toying with affections and not sexuality.Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiquarian
Is he really hesistant? He seems pretty strongly drawn to her. Lawrence says that Severn loved her willfulness and impulsiveness. These are the qualities that Severn lacks, and so he finds them attractive in the child. I suppose Severn making Mary repeat a Pater Noster shows that he has some qualms about this, but he's never actually hesitates.
Yes, repulsed was a poor word, so I edited my post.
I suppose what I'm trying to say is that I don't interpret this passage to be sexual at all. Severn isn't bothered by her nudity. He's put off by her wildness which he's trying to civilize. Mary isn't Eve. She's a heathen, and she's even called by heathen Greek names like Dryad and Bachanal. Severn, on the other hand, is the overly-educated, civilized man who finds her spirit both attractive and worrisome.
Are we ready to move on to a new part of the text?
I have been absent today, because my new granddaughter came to visit her grandma and greatgrandma and great-aunt, for the very first time. Our visit was simply wonderful and now I am in seventh heaven. She is adorable and I love her so much - words can't even describe this feeling I have when I see her again. I got to feed her a bottle and she is darling. This is one happy grannie!
I will post the text tomorrow, if you all give me the go-ahead. Sorry to slack off today; but I am happy I did so. My granddaughter has to come first!
Let me just say a few words on the next section, sense I missed when it was first posted.
I find the mention of the dark doorway here interesting, with Mrs. Thomas, sort of looming there watching, as what goes on in the house ends up being far less pleasent and carefree than the garden scene outside. Mrs. Thomas does sort of cast a shadow over everyone.Quote:
Mrs. Thomas stood in the dark doorway watching the night, the trains, the flash and run of the two white figures.
I do find it interesting that the interactions between Severn and the child are tinged with the suggestion of violence intermingled in thier affection and thier play.Quote:
He caught her up. She strangled him hard with her young arms.
"I said, where's your mother?" he persisted, half smothered.
"She's op'tairs," shouted the child. "Give me a swing."
"I don't think she is," said Severn.
"She is. Give me a swing, a swi-i-ing!"
Here the child is portrayed almost like a burdon to Severn, this great weight in which he must bear. It could reflect the Eve idea, though here the child is still innocent, she is starting to grow into the temprtress and the "sin" of Eve, than must be carried forever by man.Quote:
He bent forward, so that she hung from his neck like a great pendant. Then he swung her, laughing low to himself while she shrieked with fear. As she slipped he caught her to his breast.
But Severn bore her off. Laughing, he bowed his head and offered to the mother the baby who clung round his neck.
She laughed as she drew at the child to pull her loose from Severn. The baby clung tighter, and laughed, feeling no determination in her mother's grip. Severn bent his head to loosen the child's hold, bowed, and swung the heavy baby on his neck. The child clung to him, bubbling with laughter; the mother drew at her baby, laughing low, while the man swung gracefully, giving little jerks of laughter.
I found this line to be a bit currious, as it says he gave tenderness but did not ask for it, and yet right before this, he demands the child to give him a kiss and than becomes upset when she does not comply.Quote:
He was a man who gave tenderness, but who did not ask for it. All his own troubles he kept, laughingly, to himself. But his eyes were very sad when quiet, and he was too quick to understand sorrow, not to know it.
The words "dangerous laugh" struck me as interesting hereQuote:
He started back in aversion, and his eyes and his teeth flashed with a dangerous laugh.
Ok, after thinking about what I mean about the sexual inference between Severn and the child, and since sexual tension turns out to be the incorrect term, I'm going to have to settle for sexual undercurrent as for what I think Lawrence is implying. While I don't think it's a conscious element to Severn or the child, i do think Lawrence is putting this undercurrent into the text. There are just too many sexual references to completely think that everything on a subconscious level is innocent. I think the same may be said between him and Kate, though it's not as prominant, if at all, there. At least that's my opinion and reading. I think you guys will mostly disagree with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
I completely agree with those that mention the garden scene as a sort of playing in the garden of eden. I had not thought of that at all when i first read the story and I do think it fits well.
Yes, this was what caught my eye in my readings. What occurs is a sort of mock fight, which parallels the climatic real fight at the end.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
Quote:
He caught her up. She strangled him hard with her young arms.
The action here is very similar to the fight action, only of course there is a slant to it. It's not a fight but a mock fight.Quote:
He bent forward, so that she hung from his neck like a great pendant. Then he swung her, laughing low to himself while she shrieked with fear. As she slipped he caught her to his breast.
Well, perhaps. I don't know. There is a danger of pushing the allegory too far. I don't think at its heart this is an allegorical story.Quote:
Here the child is portrayed almost like a burdon to Severn, this great weight in which he must bear. It could reflect the Eve idea, though here the child is still innocent, she is starting to grow into the temprtress and the "sin" of Eve, than must be carried forever by man.
Quote:
He was a man who gave tenderness, but who did not ask for it. All his own troubles he kept, laughingly, to himself. But his eyes were very sad when quiet, and he was too quick to understand sorrow, not to know it.
I found that interesting too. I don't see this part of the characterization have any direct influence to the plot. What troubles of his become relavant? I don't see any. But it does show a relatively immature man, someone not fully capable of expressing himself. And I guess that does figure into the plot somewhat because it seems people do misinterpret his jocular quips, especially Mr. Thomas who figures Severn dropped the weight on him on purpose..Quote:
I found this line to be a bit currious, as it says he gave tenderness but did not ask for it, and yet right before this, he demands the child to give him a kiss and than becomes upset when she does not comply.
Quote:
He started back in aversion, and his eyes and his teeth flashed with a dangerous laugh.
He does become dangerous at the end. ;)Quote:
The words "dangerous laugh" struck me as interesting here
You may be right about it being innocent. Perhaps the point is a pre-fall innocence. But that does imply the undercurrent is there. It's how we interpret the undercurrent I guess is the issue. I think you guys have convinced me it's innocent and therefore your interpretation holds. ;) See, who says I'm stubborn and never change my mind? :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Antiquarian
Hmm, it had not occured to me that an "apple" was implied in the story. Again I try not to read too allegorically. Let's look at it when we get there.Quote:
I see the apple figuratively in this story as the fight Mrs. Severn seems to deliberately provoke, but that's getting ahead.
I did not take that to mean Kate leaving, but that he had known some Sorrow in his past, or that perhaps he was unhappy for some reason. As we do not know what brought him to live with this family, but being that he is bording with them, it seems he unable to support himself though he is shown to be intelligent latter on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiquarian
I had not noticed the flowers at all. I need to re-read the story. I've been focused on the sexuality and the fighting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiquarian
I think Mr Thomas is also seen biting into bread and butter and I'm not sure if his bites are savage, but it could be implied. I don't have my book handy right now.Quote:
I do have to wonder about all the anger in the story. Even Mary is described as "eating her piece of bread-and-butter with savage little bites of resentment" because she did not want to go to bed. Well, I guess that's normal for a child of three. Mary's thought processes seems very precocious for a child of three. Or maybe I was just very innocent for a longer period of time.
I haven't made up my mind on it completely. I think Lawrence is after that layer of pre-civilization in man. Are we sure it's Severn who is the old Adam or is it thomas? Or both?Quote:
I think the story might be called "The Old Adam" because it shows any man (helpless creatures all the way back to Adam, the "old" Adam) can be led into temptation. I don't know. I don't feel as sure about that. LOL