D.H. Lawrence's Short Stories Thread

[Janine]

Yes, I do call that subtext. I'm not sure if Kate was sad or happy to be going. We don't really know where she's going, but we do know it was not her choice to go. I think Severn thinks it's unfair that she's being sent away.

Antiquarian,I think she seemed resigned in her manor, but angry about it. I don't think she clenched her fists at Severn's question, but at the entire affair, that she has been told to leave. She can see that he is in no position to stick up for her either, how could he? He is only a tenent. I think that she feels double frustrated, that she is alone in all this; she has no defense for them keeping her on, so that has to be frustrating and causing her inner anger, which she subtly expresses and yet keeps contained. God knows where she is headed. I feel greatly for this young girl. I think Lawrence, through the narrator and Severn, does also. He is writing in sympathy for her lower class statis; he would know about his having been born the son of a collier. The Thomas' seem to think they are 'important' having a tenent and a maid and the husband working in public office. I think Severn would feel more aligned to Kate, than to the Thomas', even though he sees they are not happily married people and he has some attraction to Mrs. Thomas.

I don't particularly like storms myself, not unless they get themselves over quickly, but I like the way the thunderstorm foreshadows the wild events still to come that evening. I think the atmosphere of the storm is the perfect setting.

It does foreshadow it well; I addressed this in DM's post. It does seem the "perfect setting" for this particular story.

I found this to be a piece for foreshadowing, too:

"When in repose, he had the diffident, ironic bearing so remarkable in the educated youth of today, the very reverse of that traditional aggressiveness of youth."

We know he's going to become quite aggressive later. Well, maybe not aggressive, I don't think he started the fight, but he was certainly involved and he certainly held his own.

Antiquarian, I think we think somewhat alike. This is from my earier post:
Quote by Janine

The last statement is interesting; seems to set up the idea that he is not as the youth of the day, ‘traditionally aggressive’. Ironic that the story begins with that statement, since later he does indeed become very aggressive, when provoked/attacked.

Quote by Antiquarian

I also found it interesting that Severn said, "...there's not a trace of color in the atmosphere."

One would think, with a storm brewing, it would be dark, but I suppose that's what Lawrence means, that the sunset is not at all colorful.[/QUOTE]

I think that is what he is saying. He is aluding to the fact that normally they would be enjoying a lovely colorful sunset but not this night - the night that seems to be ominious in many ways, first with Kate departing; he is really unaware at this moment of what will follow and develop this night. So I think basically he is saying her leaving is a colorless affair, sad.

I'm not sure if Severn is sorry to see Kate go or not. He's ironic in tone and Kate clenches her fists at his remark. She didn't seem to like it. I didn't get the impression that Severn wanted her to go, but I sort of got the impression that he didn't care that much and that Kate resented the whole thing, as would be natural for her to do.

If you read the whole text together - the conversation - I think you can see that line differently. At least, I see it as a question to Kate and it all depends on how he would say it, I suppose; the tone. I did feel he mean 'ironic' to the fact she was being tossed out of the household, outside of her own wishes, but also it could mean that she was not that liked and therefore she might not be that sorry to move on; all except the fact it is stated she has nowhere to go from here. She is 'between a rock and a hard place', as they say. She can't win either way - if she stayed she might not be too happy and resented, if she goes her future is unsure. It reminds me of Maddy in Ethan Frome; ever read the book? She is told to leave after aiding the sick wife and she has no where to go. If she stays she is abused verbally, is she goes she is destitude.

"Yes," said Kate, rather awkwardly.
"A troublesome sort of evening; must be, because it's your last with us."
"Yes," said the girl, flushing and hardening.
There was another pause; then:
"Sorry you're going?" he asked, with a faint tang of irony.
"In some ways," she replied, rather haughtily.
He laughed, as if he understood what was not said, then, with an "Ah well!" he passed along the hall.

Kate clenches her fists and holds her breast tight because she is angry about the whole affair of being expelled not of Severn's remarks. I felt she liked Severn.

[Quark]

I did feel he mean 'ironic' to the fact she was being tossed out of the household, outside of her own wishes, but also it could mean that she was not that liked and therefore she might not be that sorry to move on

I think it's ironic for the second reason you brought up. He's ironic because she probably does want to leave anyway. The maid's answer also makes it seem like she's at least partly glad to be leaving.

Kate clenches her fists and holds her breast tight because she is angry about the whole affair of being expelled not of Severn's remarks. I felt she liked Severn.

Yes, there's a connection between Severn and Kate that's more than just class. They appear to be attracted to each other somewhat. This is part of why Kate has to leave. She's being forced out because she's competition for the wife. The situation later with Severn and the couple is briefly mirrored here at the beginning--this time with two women and one man, instead of two men and one woman.

[Dark Muse]

This is part of why Kate has to leave. She's being forced out because she's competition for the wife. The situation later with Severn and the couple is briefly mirrored here at the beginning--this time with two women and one man, instead of two men and one woman.

Yes I thought the same thing

[Dark Muse]

I think that Mrs. Thomas was jealous of Kate, I do not think Kate and Severn acutally previously had relations, but now that Kate is being noticed as a woman Mrs. Thomas did not want the young man around a woman younger than she is, and who has been described as being beautiful

[Dark Muse]

I think there was sexual tension in the incident in which Severn first comes into the house where it says:

Instead of entering the house, the young man stood beside the maid-servant and looked into the black evening.

There talk of the storm could also be seen as sexual tension, refelction on the sort of tension that hovers in the air during an electric storm

[Dark Muse]

I do not think Severn is that innocent, he might be unexeperince, but he was perfectly aware of his sexual tension with Mrs. Thomas.

[Virgil]

My goodness. How did you guys get so far. I've yet to read it a second time. I guess I'll have to do that tonight.

[Janine]

My goodness. How did you guys get so far. I've yet to read it a second time. I guess I'll have to do that tonight.

We are not that far, Virgil; I only posted the first part of the text. I would like to move on soon.

Seems now we are debating any sexual tension between Severn and Kate. I don't think he is oblivious to the fact she is quite lovely and developing into a desirable woman, but I don't think truly there is 'sexual tension', no more than would be natural between two young people at that age, viewing a night sky together and the impending storm. I thought if anything, the fact they stood side by side indicated they were on level footing at this part of the story.

Antiquarian, You said "I didn't see any sexual tension there because Severn was too ironic with Kate for that." I think saying he was 'too ironic' is exaggerating a little. If you read the line, all it says is ""Sorry you're going?" he asked, with a faint tang of irony." - 'a faint tang of irony'. How do you feel he is being too ironic towards Kate, if it is that subtle?

You said "I got the impression she was angry with the lot of them." How differently we see this part; I got no such feeling about her towards Severn, I thought she rather liked him and was affable towards him. I can see how she would feel rejected and angry with Mr. and Mrs. Thomas but Severn does not seem one bit responsible for her being put out. He seems to feel badly about it from the start; later he proves that with his mental statement saying it is such a shame, that it was over one little thing; this we can only guess at or conjecture about. Could be a number of things but mostly I am veering towards Mrs. Thomas' jealousy - not yet decided in how that manifested itself.

Quark, You said:

"I think it's ironic for the second reason you brought up. He's ironic because she probably does want to leave anyway. The maid's answer also makes it seem like she's at least partly glad to be leaving."

Yes, that is sort of what I was thinking of. Also maybe ironic because like I said before she may not have fully liked working there but a young woman in her position would not have a lot of choices.

Whenever all are ready we might move onward to the next part of the story. How bout you, Virgil? Can I post the part with the baby?

[Janine]

"Too ironic" was an exaggeration, Janine. I just didn't feel any sexual tension in the text between Severn and Kate. I felt Severn was treating her like an equal, though, and not like a servant.

I agree.

I think it was probably Mrs. Thomas who wanted Kate gone, now that she was maturing into a lovely woman who might possibly attract the attention of Severn or Mr. Thomas.

Yes, and apparently some small incident occurred or something we are never privy to. Later on in the parlour we do get some conversation revealing a little bit more about her and how Mrs. Thomas feels about her. I won't post that yet but I just read the conversation over and thought it interesting - some subtext there, too.
Antiquarian, I like that word now.

Kate just seems angry to me, not that I blame her, especially if she has nowhere to go. She might very well be angry with Severn for not sticking up for her more if indeed, he didn't. We know he thinks Mrs. Thomas' reasons are trivial because he says something to that effect later on, but we don't know if that's the extent of his protestation or not.

I really don't think she is angry with Severn and we don't know if he could stick up for her or has. There is a little bit revealed in that conversation but then again that is just conjucture, in reading between the lines.

When Severn says, "A troublesome sort of evening; must be because it's your last with us."

Kate says, "Yes," said the girl, flushing and hardening.

Then later: The maid stood for a few moments clenching her young fists, clenching her very breast in revolt. Then she closed the door.
That's why I felt she was angry with all of them. (I don't know how one clenches her breast. I tried to do it and I couldn't. LOL)

Antiquarian, I may see how you formed your opinion that Kate was angry at them all; but I did not get the same impression, when I read it first or second time or even now; I did get the impression Kate was unhappy leaving and angry about the fact she had to go; I think that Severn bringing it up to her only reinforced her anger of the event, not of Severn. There is actually a lot of anger in this story, but all of it is contained, underlying, until that fateful moment the box falls on Mr.Thomas, when Severn slips on the stairs; then anger is finally expressed.

I'm ready to move on as soon as slow poke (Virgil) is. (Joking, don't want him to get mad at me.)

Yeah our pokey Virgil is something; he comes in all the time now to say 'we sure have progressed and he will have to work to catch up'. Then poof, where is he? I will summons him and he will appear; you wait and see. He is somewhere in Aenied-Land I believe. That discussion will go on forever!
I am only poking gentle fun at him, too. What would we do without him?

Ok, I will try and post more text tomorrow, although I am going to a graduation party in the afternoon and may go and see my baby granddaughter in the evening. I hope to post sometime in-between or later. Sorry to hold everyone up. I am tripping over books that need to be put away and can't even find my sofa, presently. I will be back soon as I can.

[Virgil]

I can tell you where to find Virgil. I just encountered him over in the "Are all men created equal thread." Seems he's gone all philosophical on us. Or abandoned us for philosophical questions.

I'm just poking fun at him, too. He takes it so well.

Well, I have gone philosophical tonight. I decided to have a little scotch tonight and I was in the mood to be abstract. O I was goig to reread the story tonight when I got into bed and catch up tomorrow.

[quasimodo1]

I'll drink to that.

[Janine]

I can tell you where to find Virgil. I just encountered him over in the "Are all men created equal thread." Seems he's gone all philosophical on us. Or abandoned us for philosophical questions.

I wonder what that is about? I will have to take a quick peak. I bet he is all philosophical. He seems to like those kinds of threads; are ladies invited into that one or is it exculsive to men? Virgil is always philosphocial, or tries to be. Isn't that why he picked the user name, 'Virgil'?

I'm just poking fun at him, too. He takes it so well.

he does; he's a good heart.

I hope you enjoy the graduation party (going to be hot and humid again, hope it's inside) and I hope you get to see your granddaughter and have a nice visit.

I don't know if I am that enthused now - it is going to be awfully hot here and humid and the party is indeed outside, although we can wander in. I have a feeling there will be a lot of people doing that.
I hope to see my granddaughter, but nothing is set yet; we'll see.

I'm ready to talk about Severn's encounter with the Thomas' little girl, though. I have a lot to say about that. When everyone else is ready, of course. It's not like I don't have anything to do, it's more like I keep procrastinating. LOL (That wasn't a criticism of anyone but me, it was a criticism of me for procrastinating, though I did lay out some scenes for a new story today. Oh, wow. LOL But that's more than I have been doing.)

I know, you are anxious and sure everyone else is. Sorry to hold you all up. I would have posted it earlier but got tied up with moving the stuff for the AC guy; now I am really tired out and it is already after midnight.

Antiquarian, your story sounds good, so try and work on that, have a nice ice-tea on the veranda and enjoy the hot weather tomorrow, until I get back. Have a fun summery day!

Oops, look who is down below...didn't I say he would arrive soon...he definitely has ESP besides being Mr. philosophical.....

Well, I have gone philosophical tonight. I decided to have a little scotch tonight and I was in the mood to be abstract. O I was goig to reread the story tonight when I got into bed and catch up tomorrow.

Yes, scotch will do it everytime! Hey, V, you are abstract enough sober.
If you are drinking scotch now, you will fall asleep one page into the story.

Well, my plan is to post more text tomorrow sometimes - could be late but I will try my best.

[Janine]

I'll drink to that.

Hi Quasi, aren't there enough alchy's in here tonight.

A likely story. We will see how this pans out tomorrow.

Yeah, really....Anti...time will tell....promises, promises!

I drank too much wine tonight. I actually feel sick and I told someone Antiquarian is my real name. For heaven's sake. I should go to bed, but I can't sleep after red wine.

You wino, you! Well, very pleased to meet you, 'Antiquarian!' Will the real Antiquarian please stand up.

[Virgil]

The man she opened to was tall and thin, but graceful in his energy. He wore white flannels, carried a tennis-racket.

I found that so funny actually, though I'm not sure it was meant to be funny. The notion of wearing white carrying a tennis racket seems so school boyish to me. It's certainly meant to imply something and the only thing I can think of is youth, adolescent. His mocking of Kate while underneath empathizing reveals a sort of childishness, immaturity, an inability to express real feelings. I think somewhere else he's described as diffident. Even his interaction with the child shows his immaturity, or at least puts him on the same level as the child.

She's being forced out because she's competition for the wife. The situation later with Severn and the couple is briefly mirrored here at the beginning--this time with two women and one man, instead of two men and one woman.

Good point Quark. I didn't pick that up. The mock fight with the child I believe mirrors the climatic one. That too is a parallel. There are parallels that are laid out between these desparate scenes.

I didn't feel that Kate and Severn had anything "going on." (I don't know if anyone said they did.) I felt Kate was just trying to hold onto her dignity.

I didn't think Kate was competition for Mrs. Thomas because Severn later says to Mrs. Thomas that Kate was being thrown out for "such a little thing." If she were competition for Mrs. Thomas, I don't think Severn would have said that to her.

I agree with your first statement Anti; there isn't overt sexual tension between Kate and Severen that I could see. Except for the very fact that Lawrence makes a point of her sexual attractiveness, and that has to be considered. As to the second statement, I think that's where the subtext has to be interpreted. Given the sexual dynamics that are going on, one has to conclude that underlying whatever surface motive they gave to let Kate go, the unconscious firing of Kate has to have been because of her sexual threat to Mrs. Thomas. The same sort of subtext I think has to be used in understanding the fight between Severn and Mr. Thomas; the provided reason is just a surface rationale for a deeper reason.

I think that Mrs. Thomas was jealous of Kate, I do not think Kate and Severn acutally previously had relations, but now that Kate is being noticed as a woman Mrs. Thomas did not want the young man around a woman younger than she is, and who has been described as being beautiful

Yes, this is how I saw the general reationships.

I didn't see any sexual tension there because Severn was too ironic with Kate for that. I also think Severn is too innocent to even recognize any sexual tension, and Kate was too intent on maintaining her dignity in the face of being thrown out.

I completely agree about Severn not seeing the sexual tension. Hahaha. But for Lawrence there is an unconscious.

Kate just seems angry to me, not that I blame her, especially if she has nowhere to go. She might very well be angry with Severn for not sticking up for her more if indeed, he didn't. We know he thinks Mrs. Thomas' reasons are trivial because he says something to that effect later on, but we don't know if that's the extent of his protestation or not.

When Severn says, "A troublesome sort of evening; must be because it's your last with us."

Kate says, "Yes," said the girl, flushing and hardening.

Then later: The maid stood for a few moments clenching her young fists, clenching her very breast in revolt. Then she closed the door.

That's why I felt she was angry with all of them. (I don't know how one clenches her breast. I tried to do it and I couldn't. LOL)

I'm ready to move on as soon as slow poke (Virgil) is. (Joking, don't want him to get mad at me.)

I agree with you analysis of Kate. Yes I've caught up and we can move on.

One last thought on the thunder and lightning. I think it was mentioned that it foreshadows the fight, but it does one other thing, it suggests the sort of electricity that hangs about from the sexual tensions that are going on. Just like static electricity is an unseen force, so are the unconscious sexual anxieties.

Just a side not. Janine is aware of this but let me make it clear for everyone else. I don't buy into 90% of this psychobabble. These are just ideas from the early 20th century. Unfortunately many people even today buy into them. I'm just attempting to understand Lawrence, not project my views into the text.

[Virgil]

I don't buy into the psychobabble, either, which might be why I didn't care for this story too much on some level. I don't believe in psychoanalysis, but I don't want to debate that. On another level, I liked the amusing aspects of the story a lot.

On the second rereading I probably don't think as highly of this story as I initially did. It's very well written, chracterization-wise and the drawing of scenes. But I think there is too much of a leap of faith (all the subtext stuff) that one has to make that makes the themes somewhat tenuous. We could get into that later.

Still, I don't see any sexual tension between Severn and Kate. LOL A lot of women can be insanely jealous of an attractive, or even an unattractive woman, and still know there's absolutely no sexual threat to any man she cares about coming from that woman. I feel this is how Mrs. Thomas felt about Kate. I think Mrs. Thomas just wanted to be the "Queen Bee." I could be wrong, of course, but I don't think there's sexual tension. I honestly don't think it matters if there's sexual tension or not.

No question that whether there is tension between Kate and Severn is questionable. I can't see it overtly either. But given that a lot of the story is subtext and given the sexual electricity between several of the characters and given that Kate is so sensual and beautiful, I jump to this assumption. It seems like it's suggested.