I cannot remember if I came onto the site Sunday or not. But I think I might have.
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I cannot remember if I came onto the site Sunday or not. But I think I might have.
:lol: You got to be Mad, Bad, and Dangerous to get banned. I cn't see you or Sprinks getting banned. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Antiquarian
Like Virgil said - you would have to be Bad, Mad and Dangerous to get banned on here. Now Virgil might know something about that:lol:. You would never get banned, Antiquarian, you are too nice and polite, for that kind of thing; anyway they would give you plenty of warnings first.Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiquarian
I can't believe, I could not get on at all and all of you could somewhat. I could not even attempt to log on. The same page kept coming up, saying the connection was unavailable; this went on all day and into the wee hours of this morning. I was kind of worried - like zap - everything we wrote on here just went up in smoke.
Thank God it all came back. They must have all this backed up, right? Someone told me these sites have two hard-drives they back up everything on them. Can you imagine, if we lost all of our valuable posts? I always desire to copy out all the ones in this thread for posterity and information and then burn them onto a disk. Of course, it will take some work to do all that; I have been procrastinating it. Maybe I could do it story by story and edit out somethings; still would take considerable time.
My next post will be the story announcement....coming very sooooon.....
LOL I am probably the most likely canditate from being banned form anywhere
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p...OldAdamCD2.jpg
Our new story is:
The Old Adam
You can find the full-online text to story here:
Collected Short Stories (A Project Gutenberg of Australia compliation)
http://gutenberg.net.au/pages/lawrence.html
This story can be found in the first volume of the
“Collected Short Stories of D.H.Lawrence”
One can purchase the audio CD or Download:
http://www.amazon.com/Old-Adam-D-H-L.../dp/B000Y91ZDS
For download, look here:
http://www.amazon.com/The-Old-Adam/d...music_cd_album
Note: download costs only $1.98 from Amazon;
you can sample the narration before buying.
Here is some information and background on the story:
This story was begun in 1911 and yet the publication date is 1934, four years after Lawrence’s death. Note: ‘Witch a la Mode’ was also published that year, but written (conceived of) during this same (earlier) period.
In 1911 these events were documented in Lawrence’s life. Italics are Lawrence own words in his diary entries or letters to friends, family, associates, etc.
From: D.H.Lawrence, A calender of his works, by Sagar
Quote:
SUMMARY …and, in the sick year after [the death of his mother], the collapse of me of Miriam [Jessie Chambers], of Helen [Corke], and of the other woman, the woman of ‘Kisses in the Train” and ‘Hands of the Betrothed’ Louie Burrows]. Then, in that year, for me, everything collapsed, save the mystery of death, and the haunting of death in life. I was twenty-five, and from the death of my mother, the world began to dissolve around me, beautiful, iridescent, but passing away substanceless. Till I almost dissolved away myself, and was very ill.
Interesting to note, is the fact that we have discussed two of these stories, soon to be a third. I also am considering the remaining two, for later dates. I know that ‘Daughters of the Vicar’ is a very noteworthy Lawrence story, but it is much longer than we have encountered, so far. However, when we all have the time, I think that fine story would be well worth discussing.Quote:
Lawrence continued to work on Paul Moral. He wrote the first versions of the stories, ultimately known as ‘The Witch a la Mode’, ‘The Old Adam’, ‘Daughters of the Vicar’, ‘Second Best’, ‘Shades of Spring’ and rewrote most of his earlier stories.
Another interesting thing I noticed when browsing through the timeline book, is that at this time, Lawrence was doing a lot of painting. I found this direct reference to the painting I posted above, ‘Idyll’, by Greiffenhagen:
1 SEPT: In the account for this day, apparently, Lawrence’s publisher Harrison accepted one of two stories Lawrence send to him – ‘Second Best’ and he returned ‘The Old Adam’. Then Lawrence forwarded the story to his other publisher, Garnett, “describing it as ‘wicked’ but ‘clever’. It was assumed he was referring to ‘ The Old Adam’.Quote:
27 MARCH To Ada Clarke: I’ve painted you a little Idyll, about 14 by 7. Do you remember? I began to draw it the night mother died, and I said I should never finish it. Now I’ve done a big one for Louie, and a little one for you.
29 MARCH I began a new sketch, but have spoiled it through not being in the painting humour. Strange, when I can write I can’t paint, and vice versa.
14 JUNE I’ve worked quite hard: begun a picture, long promised, for Mac., and written a short story, 32 pages long, in two nights. Smart work, eh? …By the way, I’ve got a ‘Swan’ number of the Studio. Rather a nice tiger.
Lawrence saw Louie Burrows at Whiteuntide and apparently showed her his story ‘The Old Adam’ (Why mustn’t I write Old Adams?). But the only surviving holograph MS of the ‘The Old Adam’ is only 27 pp. Possibly the 32 –pp. MS was the first draft of ‘Two Marriages’.
Now oddly enough, this story must have gone through several re-writes or revisions and wasn’t published, until after Lawrence’s death in 1934; Lawrence died in March of 1930 at the age of 44.
Michael Black briefly comments on the story here:
That is all I am going to say about the story for now; I thought this would be enough to pique all of your interest. So have fun reading it; or listening to the audiofile, if you have the inclination to download it. I am hoping to myself. I think this story is interesting, in that the setting and the atmosphere it evokes is a bit different, taking place during a lightening and thunderstorm.Quote:
Readers of the earlier stories also become aware of this tendency to be attracted towards a rival, who is threadening because he also wants, or has won, the chosen girl, and yet is somehow very winning as a male: indeed he is seen as through a girl’s eyes. An extreme variant of the motif is seen in ‘The Old Adam’, where the hero, Edward Severn, is like Lawrence living in Croydon with the Jones family, who gave him lodging. Severn is briefly attracted by the landlady – there is a moment of wordless magnetism activated by a thunderstorm.
Have fun reading or listening to the audiofile!
Antiquarian, thanks and so glad I got that accomplished tonight; it took me awhile; sorry didn't get to you PM or V's. I ran out of energy and now I am watching something on DVD to relax.Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiquarian
Dark Muse, Nah, I don't think you could ever be banned; you haven't done anything against the rules. I don't think disagreeing goes against the rules. I think we are a good group and none of us have to worry about being banned, or even warned. Just don't throw rotten tomatoes at me, if you don't like this story; if anyone complains, they get to pick the next one! :lol: I will get you back on way or the other.
Maybe, we could refrain this time from hating characters, until we read the story a few times and discuss it in depth. Then we can evaluate all the characters, if need be, at the end. This story is not quite as complex as the last one, and yet I don't think there is one Lawrence character that exists that does not contain some complexity. I think this story has a bit of humor to it, also. At least, I found some of parts and passages amusing.
I cannot make any promoises about that. I am a person who is given to make strong intitial reactions, and those are rarely changed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Well, for a change I read the story early, this morning in fact, and let me say i really enjoyed. I need to read it at least another time before i make any comments. And I would also want to get that audio version. Obviously I had read the story many years ago, since my text had some scribbled notes in it, but I didn't remember the story at all. Good choice Janine.
Oh, Virgil, you made my day; thanks so much for saying it was a good choice and so glad you read it already. You are real pal! It didn't take me long to read the story either - it goes along quickly. I will probably read through it again or listen to the audiofile. Can't wait to download that. Should be interesting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
You know it is funny, I am reading Lawrence's " The Virgin and the Gypsy" and I know I read this book years back, but (like you) I can't recall a thing about it; re-reading it is like a whole fresh experience. I am kind of glad of that fact. I also, just read "Love Among the Haystacks" two weeks ago; I loved that novella years back; again, I could hardly recall it.
Thanks again and this should be a good discussion.
I just read the story today, and I enjoyed it. In someways I found it a bit amusing.
I'll take a look at the story tomorrow. When do we start the discussion?
Quote by Dark Muse
Dark Muse, Glad to hear you liked it. Hey, you trying to make me weak in the knees in liking something?;) I liked the story, too and also I found it amusing, in several parts. One was the slippers and the other was the thought in Syson's mind at what the Mrs had to say. We can discuss both when we get to them. I also thought Lawrence wrote this in a way to be amusing at times. Lawrence was a very funny and witty man himself, not always dead serious. His friends got a real kick out his antics - he was suppose to be the best at Charades and even imitated some famous people and had them all rolling on the floor with laughter.Quote:
I just read the story today, and I enjoyed it. In someways I found it a bit amusing.
Quark, I don't know if Antiquarian has read the story yet; I figured after I had posted this story with the introduction, that I would give it a few days to begin the discussion. This would allow everyone to do their reading. I think that possibly, Pensive will be joining in on this one, since I spoke to her today IM. Now that it is summer, many of the students have the time to come back to this thread and other discussions on the forum. I would say we could start the real discussion, about Thurs or even tomorrow, if all have all read it by then; it is not a very long story and goes along quickly. I hate to rush anyone.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quark
LOL it is usually characters I do not like not stories. I can like a story even if I dislike certain characters, but as far as that goes, I will just say this time I did not truly hate anyone, might have liked some a little less than others, but I am not out to crucify anyone this time around.
Antiquarian, I would agree with all this; after the last story, that was a real 'mind expander', I thought our brains could use a simplier story and a little break this month. This story is much more straightforward, so we can all relax and enjoy being amused by it. I found the story likable, and in someways it turned out a bit ironic. I liked the way in which Lawrence wrote it; it felt humorous in the manor in which he phrased certain lines. We can take a closer look at that, when we get started on looking directly at the story text. I also thought the lightening storm made for an interesting backdrop to the little drama and friction that takes place. 'Less' can sometimes be just as worthy as 'more'; there are times it is fun just to read for enjoyments sake and I think this story was quite natural at the time for Lawrence to write. This time we won't have to strain our minds too much, to come up with all that complicated symbolism. Presently, we have our task layed out for us in the Chekhov thread, with that heavier discussion of black monks appearing out of thin air; so if this is a lighter discussion, that will be ok with me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiquarian
Quote by Dark Muse
Good to hear it, DM. This discussion should be a light fun one. I look forward to it.Quote:
LOL it is usually characters I do not like not stories. I can like a story even if I dislike certain characters, but as far as that goes, I will just say this time I did not truly hate anyone, might have liked some a little less than others, but I am not out to crucify anyone this time around.
I'm not so sure that this story is as simple as the surface implies. Perhaps it is, but there are some interesting elements to the story that if they connect thematically (and I haven't in my first reading completely comprehended it all) could make this a complex work. For instance, why does Lawrence include the detail of Kate being Jewish, and why is a point made that the Thomas's are protestant and Severn is a lapsed Cathloic? Why is the story titled "The Old Adam"? Why is the little girl, and especially the two scenes, one where he's racing after her and the other where he undresses her for bed, included? What is is going on with the sexual tension between Severn and Mrs. Thomas? Is there is sexual tension between him and Kate, and even perhpas between him and the little girl? If so why? And why do Severn and Mr. Thomas make up at the end so easily? I haven't figured all of this out, but i think those are some of the key questions that will allow us to untangle this story.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
I thought at the very begining, when Kate opens the door for him, there might have been some sexual tension between the two of them.
I really do not think anything "unatural" was between him and the girl.
I thought his statement of "She was getting to old for a young man to undress" was a rather natural one to make, I do not think it was sexual, but rather showed instead his more "paternal" feelings toward the girl, becasue he is aware that it is getting to the point where it will no longer be appropraite.
I felt this his sexual tension with Mrs. Thomas was natural considering his situation. A young man that has never "been" with a woman before, every day alone in ths house with her, while she is cearly discontented with her husband, and the story remarks that she was attractive. I think almost anyone in that circumstance would begin to develop certain feelings/desires.
Yes I understand. Much early part of the 20th century had these racial notions. It even amounted to shaping o fheads of different races and the supposed implications. You can see references in a lot of early 20th century fiction, maybe even late 19th century fiction. Lawrence was not immune to the ignorant racial theories of his day. (As a side note, hitler's racial theories did not come in a vacuum; they were out there in the general public and not just in Germany but across Europe and even America.) I don't think that's the significance of Kate's Jewishness. He goes out of his way to mention the Protestant and the Cathlolic religons too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiquarian
OK, I thought it was a little more than natural, but when can look into it when we get to the text.Quote:
I think Severn's reaction to the little girl was a very normal one for a man of twenty-seven and one who's had no sexual experience. Perhaps it's included to show Severn is a very modest man and one who is very polite.
Severn is young enough, I think, to be sexually attracted to anyone who's good looking.
But what's the significance of it? In a story about a character who gets into a fist fight with his landlord, why are the questions I brought up suggested in the text. Do you think Lawrence just included those scenes and details to pad the story or do they tie in?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
I think the attraction between Severn and Mrs. Thomas ties into the fight. I felt in someways it was a very primal/male dominance type of fight. As I think in the story it makes a reference that Severn and Mr. Thomas were the best of friends when Mrs. Thomas was not there, but when she was in the room they were hostile to each other.
They were two stags fighting for the rights over the female
Why do you think it's titled, "The Old Adam"? Who is Adam? Adam from Genisis? Which would give this a Biblical connection and therefore provide significance to the religions he mentions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiquarian
Wowy! I go away to sleep and come back to find all this. I guess the discussion has begun. Quark wanted to know when. I think it is well underway. Glad of it, because this is a very good start.
Quote by Virgil
This is really good Virgil. I often think we should present questions like this at the beginning of a discussion. This really stimulates us to think about various elements. I also wondered about the title “Old Adam’, and Lawrence’s remark to Louie Burrows – ‘why mustn’t I write Old Adams? You are absolutely right – this is not a simplistic story – hey, are there any of L’s that truly are. I am sure we will find out there is more to it than perceived on our first reading. I hope to re-read the complete story again soon and note various things you have pointed out. Also, I will be posting text to review. I that is always very revealing, even looking at what lies between the lines.Quote:
I'm not so sure that this story is as simple as the surface implies. Perhaps it is, but there are some interesting elements to the story that if they connect thematically (and I haven't in my first reading completely comprehended it all) could make this a complex work. For instance, why does Lawrence include the detail of Kate being Jewish, and why is a point made that the Thomas's are protestant and Severn is a lapsed Cathloic? Why is the story titled "The Old Adam"? Why is the little girl, and especially the two scenes, one where he's racing after her and the other where he undresses her for bed, included? What is is going on with the sexual tension between Severn and Mrs. Thomas? Is there is sexual tension between him and Kate, and even perhpas between him and the little girl? If so why? And why do Severn and Mr. Thomas make up at the end so easily? I haven't figured all of this out, but I think those are some of the key questions that will allow us to untangle this story.
I would add to your questions this: what would be the significance of the story taking place during the thunderstorm? Lightening is filled with tension and with light. Light is often such a huge theme with L. What would he be saying here with light emanating from lightening, electric. I just found the background setting so interesting and something different than what we have encountered so far in setting. We have had night, we have had day, but now we another totally different atmosphere presented early on in this story.
Quote by Antiquarian
Quote by Virgil in answer to AntiquarianQuote:
I did not like the fact that he pointed out Kate was Jewish and that made her "look" different.………it was blonde as a child. My mother was a strawberry blonde, my father my dark.
I agree with Virgil here; it was the times and I don’t think you can take Lawrence’s remark personally nor in a negative light. When he said it I did not see it as anything at all negative. I agree that Lawrence also points out the other religions. If anything I think Lawrence would have sided with the Jews. He took his utopian community ideal/dream from a Jewish word and a song or poem I believe. Virgil knows more about that than I do.Quote:
Yes I understand. Much early part of the 20th century had these racial notions. It even amounted to shaping o fheads of different races and the supposed implications. You can see references in a lot of early 20th century fiction, maybe even late 19th century fiction. Lawrence was not immune to the ignorant racial theories of his day. (As a side note, hitler's racial theories did not come in a vacuum; they were out there in the general public and not just in Germany but across Europe and even America.) I don't think that's the significance of Kate's Jewishness. He goes out of his way to mention the Protestant and the Cathlolic religons too.
Anti, just for the record, I was blond as a child too, so was my son and neither of us are blond now; in fact my son has very dark hair. It is funny, both and his father have been taken as Jewish decent and his father was Irish. How many think that Irish people all have red hair; we all know now that is nonsence.
Quote by Dark Muse
Dark Muse, This reminded me of what Lawrence once pointed out about 3 people being a problem and causing friction – recall ‘Two Blue Birds’; also, in my Michael Black Early Fiction book he points out something about this scenario which has been seen in other Lawrence works. Remember, too the bonding that took place at the end of ‘The Blind Man’? When we get to this part in the text (really the end scenes) I will point out in more detail what Michael Black suggests about this bonding between two men in Lawrence’s works.Quote:
I think the attraction between Severn and Mrs. Thomas ties into the fight. I felt in someways it was a very primal/male dominance type of fight. As I think in the story it makes a reference that Severn and Mr. Thomas were the best of friends when Mrs. Thomas was not there, but when she was in the room they were hostile to each other.
They were two stags fighting for the rights over the female
Your last statement, DM, made me laugh; I recall that painting in one of the stories; however, I think that was a stag and another animal.
Quote by Antiquarian
Quote by Virgil in answer to AntiquarianQuote:
I think Severn's reaction to the little girl was a very normal one for a man of twenty-seven and one who's had no sexual experience. Perhaps it's included to show Severn is a very modest man and one who is very polite.
Virgil, I agree with Antiquarian, and yet I will also be anxious to see what the text says when we look at it closer. I didn’t feel anything was unnatural though. I felt, as in ‘Sun’ Lawrence was looking at the child in a very ‘natural’ light and took nothing offensive from that passage. Hey, Virg, you trying to make our L into a pedefile? Read “Lolita” instead! :lol:Quote:
OK, I thought it was a little more than natural, but when can look into it when we get to the text.
Quote by Antiquarian
I agree with that whole-heartedly. Many young men that age will flirt and feel attraction. I had a son and he had guy friends and I know how that age group thinks. Sometimes they would really make me laugh.Quote:
Severn is young enough, I think, to be sexually attracted to anyone who's good looking.
Quote by Dark Muse
I pretty much agree with all you said here, Dark Muse….now that is a first. :lol: I think there was also sexual tension or playfulness between Kate and Severn at the beginning.Quote:
…. when Kate opens the door for him, there might have been some sexual tension between the two of them.
I really do not think anything "unnatural" was between him and the girl.
....do not think it was sexual, but rather showed instead his more "paternal" feelings ……getting to the point where it will no longer be appropriate.
I felt this his sexual tension with Mrs. Thomas was natural considering his situation. A young man that has never "been" with a woman before, every day alone in ths house with her, while she is clearly discontented with her husband, and the story remarks that she was attractive. I think almost anyone in that circumstance would begin to develop certain feelings/desires.
Quote by Virgil
I do think there is more significance to all this, as you point out here, Virgil. As you said before this is not really a ‘simple’ story; sometimes we have thought that at the beginning of these discussion and most times we have been proven wrong by our closer look at the text, themes, and symbolism, etc. In this case I am sure more will emerge as we do so and even re-read the actual text. Lawrence really never did write a story without significance; maybe this was seen as a lesser work but Lawrence apparently saw it differently, in that he even remarked how much he liked this story; that in itself seems significant for me and the remark about writing about Old Adams. Exactly what does he mean by that?Quote:
But what's the significance of it? In a story about a character who gets into a fist fight with his landlord, why are the questions I brought up suggested in the text. Do you think Lawrence just included those scenes and details to pad the story or do they tie in?
I see there is a new post since I was working on this in my offline program. Looks like it is going to be hard to catch up. After I post this I will read yours, Antiquarian, and try to answer that, too.
Edit Note: I had to come in, and edit because I see there is about 5 new posts instead of just one and they are some problems. I will try to look into that and address those privately. I am not meaning to ignore those post or anyone.
Poor Quark, is being left in the dust again; although when I post the first part of the story text, I think then he can catch up with no problem; Pensive, too, if she decides to join-in.
You guys are too hyperactive! :lol:
I did not interpret it that she thought Catholics were not believer, but that Severn was no longer a practicing Catholic, be she says he is an unbeliever who "had" been Catholic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiquarian
It is true, that Mrs. Thomas did pit the men against each other. It said she had intentionally taken the side of her husband in the argument, becasue she knew if she sided with Severn he would be gentle with Mr. Thomas.
But I still feel after my second reading of the story, that it is in someways about "primal" man.
I personally did not feel as if this story was intended to be negative to Jews. And the way in which he had put "betters" in quotations within the story, I interpreted that as if it were meant to be sarcastic in a way. That Mr. and Mrs. Thomas might have thought they were better, but I did not feel he was agreeing with or confirming to this fact.Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiquarian
I also felt that the reason she was being expelled from the house was becasue of the jealoussy of Mrs. Thomas, as she is being kicked out right at the time that she is starting to be noticed as a woman and coming into sexual maturity.
Unless I'm missing something, I don't see any malicious anti-semitism. I see some outdated notions of racial features. It doesn't strike me as going to the heart of her person. She is not a villain, as in say Shakespeare's Merchant of Venice. In fact I thought she was rather sympatheiticaly drawn. I thought this paragraph that closes the opening scene very sympathetic to Kate's predicament:
Quote:
The maid stood for a few moments clenching her young fists, clenching her very breast in revolt. Then she closed the door.
Yes I agree with you Virgil. Her being Jewish was used as a physical description of her, now it might be stereotypical in that way, but other than that I did not think it was anti-Semitic.
Also the other thing to consider, which I did not think of before when responding to Anti. Do not forget she was thier maid, so no matter her race, the people that hired her would think they were her "betters" I think that was more a statement of class not race
I am sorry, Antiquarian,that you feel this way; I truly was hoping to start this new story without contraversy and I don't see a thing Anti-semitic about this story. I must be missing something, as Virgil said, if it is there, anywhere. I just looked at the first part of the text; if anything I thought the narrator (Lawrence) was complimenting the womanliness of Kate, her new maturity and her beauty. In fact, he felt she had some Jewish blood that only made her such a beauty and he seemed in remarking about it to admire Jewish people, even more so. I also think he admired her (and the Jewish) fortitude, in the way he wrote some of the lines of observation; and finally I don't think Severn even thought it fair that she was expelled from the house; if anything Lawrence did frown on that fact here in this story, and also the difference in her class distinction (not due to her being Jewish, just poor) I can't see how that is offensive in the least; but if you truly feel offended by this story, then just don't continue with this discussion and maybe Lawrence is not even for you, who knows? I would do the same in any of the threads; I did not feel comfortable with the story or subject matter; we all have free choice here. No one will be offended, if you decide not to participate. Many have left the thread, and some have come back, after a time. It is all up to you.
Here is the beginning passage:
I think the 'inheritance' he is referring to here is her 'developing into a handsome womanhood'; he is complimenting her.Quote:
The maid who opened the door was just developing into a handsome womanhood. Therefore she seemed to have the insolent pride of one newly come to an inheritance. She would be a splendid woman to look at, having just enough of Jewish blood to enrich her comeliness into beauty. At nineteen her fine grey eyes looked challenge, and her warm complexion, her black hair looped up slack, enforced the sensuous folding of her mouth.
She wore no cap nor apron, but a well-looking sleeved overall such as even very ladies don.
"She would be a splendid woman to look at, having just enough of Jewish blood to enrich her comeliness into beauty." another direct compliment. This is like saying English people have such beautiful blue eyes, or Chinese such lovely creamy skin; all this refers to is physical features. I don't see how this is a put-down about the Jewish element in her makeup.
As DM says:
"Her being Jewish was used as a physical description of her, now it might be stereotypical in that way, but other than that I did not think it was anti-Semitic."
I agree with that distinction and I also took it as a direct compliment to Kate's appearance.
Yes, from my reading of Lawrence and considering this story was conceived early on, I think that he would be far more interested in class-distinction and prejudice, than expressing any attitude of Anti-semitism. Lawrence was not like that. You may as well say he was prejudiced against gypsies, for heaven sakes, he wrote one of his famous novels entitled "The Virgin and the Gypsy". I happen to be reading that novel currently. Some reading that book might call him anti-gypsy.Quote:
Also the other thing to consider, which I did not think of before when responding to Anti. Do not forget she was thier maid, so no matter her race, the people that hired her would think they were her "betters" I think that was more a statement of class not race
I think the last statement shows she is a lady, in Severn's eyes, not a mere maid; class plays into this more than anything.
Sorry for emerging later than I should have. Wow, so many posts in one day. I thought the thread might go on a slower pace and didn't sign in on lit-net even though I had read it last night. Still, no harm done. :)
Interesting discussion so far. I can understand, Antiquarian, about how anti-Jewish stuff would annoy you. Personally it aggravates me too, discrimination such as this. But I will back up all those who say there doesn't seem to be anti-Semeticism as such in this particular story. I have just skimmed through the story once again a few minutes back and can't find any specific sentence referring to any kind of hostility towards Jewish people (any offensive thing I mean). Maybe I have missed something?
Interesting questions, Virgil. I don't consider it as a very light read either though yes there were some amusing parts such as the fight between the two guys.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Hmmm don't think the scenes concerning the little girl are there to provide some greater meaning to the story. As for the sexual tension between Severn and Mrs. Thomas - interesting. I am pretty confused about it myself. Did anybody find that part where there was thunder and how it made Mrs. Thomas cry to be of any particular importance BTW?
Oh and the title of the story - I have been wondering about it myself too. Antiquarian's idea about it explains a lot but I wonder why the addition of 'Old' in 'The Adam'? What significance does 'Old' in 'The Old Adam' hold?
Antiquarian,
Please feel free to sit any stories you do not feel like discussing in this thread or any others on the Forum. As you can appreciate, we cannot ask other members not to discuss stories or books which are not agreeable to us as it would make it almost impossible to find one that is agreed upon by all and have any discussions.
However, this is your earlier post, in which you state that you find the story amusing:I am just wondering what has brought about the sudden change.Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiquarian
Thanks Scher for intervening. Let me make it clear that I didn't contact you or ask you to make this statement; but for once, I am glad you put a stop to this contravery. It was beginning to get me down. I too, would like to know the answer to that last question of yours. I am totally miffed.
I would also like to make it clear that I am not in the habit of "intervening" or "making statements" simply because one member or another asks me to.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
All moderators, including myself, try to do their very best to be impartial and fair while also trying to keep on top of all the posts every day. We "intervene" only because discussions sometimes do go awry and a gentle reminder is all it takes to put it back on track.
I hope now this thread will resume its earlier harmonious flow and we will all move on.
Please try to resolve your personal differences via PMs.
Any off-topic posts will be deleted.
I just read the story this afternoon, and I think it should be good for discussion. Surprise: another good pick from Janine. The plot is a little simplistic and the end is somewhat obvious, but Lawrence tells the story well and weaves in many interesting subtexts. I printed out the story, so I'm ready to discuss whenever Janine posts the first section.
Scheherazade, I do appreciate you attentiveness; yes, sometimes just a gentle reminder is enough to keep things moving along. It can't be easy to read so many posts in a day. I have always commended the mods for their fine way of running this site.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scheherazade
Quark, you have not missed much in the actual discussion of the text. I did post a paragraph or so of the beginning text, but I intend to re-post that tomorrow; start fresh.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quark
Quark, I am so glad you enjoyed the story; as you point out it is very well-written. I try hard to choose one you all will like or find interesting to discuss; I sometimes read as many as 4 or 5, before I make up my mind. Did you see my intro page? I provided a few links and one is a download to the MP3 file (audio). I want to download that myself, but first I have to clear out various things from my HD. I actually got my PM box down to nothing today; that's a first!
Glad to see Pensive joining us this month, too. She always has good perceptions and observations. It should be a good discussion.
Will post that text soon - tomorrow; a bit tired out for today.:yawnb:
Quark and Antiquarian, I was aware that the plot of the story was a little simplistic when I chose this one. I didn't want to do a super complicated story like "Witch" because I felt we did need a little breather this time. Of course, the ending was somewhat predictable but then again I felt it would be so with many of L's stories in the past. One could read the signs leading up to what would happen eventually; he lays out a lot of forshadowing devices of text, I believe. I will be also interested in discussing the subtext in this particular story. I thought we had our share of symbolism and metaphor in the last story - our poor over-taxed brains! I think there may be some when we look at the story text closer. If you recall when we read the last story initial comments on the story changed drastically from the beginning pages of the discussion to the end pages. I think often that is the case. I do think this story is not particularly driven by plot or by deep symbolism but as you say, subtext and I would say, atmosphere and human interactions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiquarian
I would agree with you on this idea and I liked those two scenes very much, and the 'set pieces', as you term them; the last being my favorite.Quote:
Naturally, I think most of it lies in the scenes and the set piece with Severn and Mrs. Thomas and in the set piece of the trip, literally, down the stairs and the fight.
Yes, you will have to teach us all a little more about that. I'm not that familar with the term, 'subtext'. You were the Lit major and Virgil did his thesis on L; so I am sure he knows; I was only an art major with very minor classes in Lit, in college. Also, my memory fails me; that was so long ago.Quote:
It should be fun to discuss that subtext. Subtext is something I love.
'The Horse-Dealer's Daughter' is a major work - very acclaimed. It is a lot longer, also. 'The Daughters of the Vicar' is acclaimed as well, but I have held off doing it - it is quite long for one month - I am sure it is very well-written and a good story.Quote:
I didn't find this story quite as well written as some of Lawrence's other stories ("The Horse-Dealer's Daughter" is my favorite), but I do think those two set pieces are great. And fun.
'Old Adam' is an earlier work. Lawrence's short story 'polish' evolved over time; practice does make perfect. I still feel, that for a 'young work', this story is quite commendable. I think I posted something saying how long it took him to write it; pretty amazing; of course, I am sure he re-wrote it over time, or revised it. It was not published until after his death.
I found it interesting that of all the stories they did find it valuable enough to produce a audiofile to buy online. I could not find another short story that had one...curious, isn't it? I wish I could find more of them on audio. I love listening to them, when I am in the mood.
To Everyone:
I will post the beginning part of the text tonight, too busy currently. Hold up and I will come through later with it.
Thanks, Antiquarian, glad you understand that. I really did think we needed to lighten up this month. I know I need a break and to get outside and enjoy the weather. I don't have a laptop so I can't take it with me. This story's bit of humor and amusing scenes I thought would be appealing after the last very serious story; you said it - it was very complex.Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiquarian
Is he? I thought his major in college was Engineering; maybe it was English. What is the difference in the two majors, English and Creative Writing major?Quote:
I think Virgil might be our only English major, I was a Creative Writing major. I wish now it had been English, but that is that. I'm not sure about DM, Quark and Pensive. Subtext is just the meaning beneath the spoken words, the things the characters mean but don't say. Unless one writes or wants to read like a writer, there's no reason to remember the term, itself. It's one of those things that you know when you see it. I'm sure you saw it even if you did forget the term. Now me, I never could draw even a decent stick figure.
Thanks for the definition of 'subtext'; this is funny, I actually looked it up in my dictionary and could not find it; it is probably in my larger college dictionary. I thought that is what it meant - sort of like 'reading between the lines', right?
:lol: I can't draw stick people either - who would want to? Maybe I will be drawing them someday for my granddaughter.
That is so true. I know he was young, when he wrote this story. I think he did have natural talent. I read his first novel and it is not a polished work and yet I did so enjoy it; it had plenty of flaws but it thrilled me at how fresh it felt and the woodland/farm/field scenes were so lovely. No one can describe snowdrops quite like Lawrence did in that book. Lawrence has been called a major writer now, but once he really did get a bum rape. I read online, it was mostly because people misinterpreted his work. Also, revised or original versions have resurfaced in recent years and these are the ones L would have had published, if he could have; he had many a struggle with publishers. I just read this online today, but forget where.Quote:
Yes, practice does improve one's work, even if it doesn't make it perfect as is the case with so many minor writers. Lawrence, of course, was a major writer and left behind so many wonderful, polished stories for us to enjoy.
Will you download it? I want to, but I think I have to clear out some more things from my HD; I'm a little overloaded right now. It does remind me of a play as well. In fact, there is some similarity to Lawrence's play, "The Widowing of Mrs. Holryod" - again, bascially a three person play, with the addition of a fourth character, near the end. Also, that play it is like a cross between this story idea and "Odour of Chrysanthemums." Lets say, they all have similar components and characters, and in two of them, there is a rival male to the husband. It is hard to explain, unless you have read all three. One scene in the play, the rival male actually washes the face of the man he just hit; the husband is drunk though so that is mainly why he is out cold; but he does it very lovingly even though they are rivals. The outcome of the play and the other short story is much different, in that this short story does not end tragically.Quote:
I can see where "The Old Adam" would be good on audiofile, though I have to admit I haven't listened to it. Parts of it are almost like a play and the two scenes are very comedic, especially the second one. I think that one would be fun to watch. It did remind me a bit of Evelyn Waugh, and I mean that in a very good way. It seems Lawrence could write in any area - comedy, tragedy, love stories, stories of families, etc.
Sorry Everyone it took me so long to post this. It is so humid here and I have to force myself to do anything today and plus I got tied up with household duties, real fun stuff. Not!
The Beginning Text:
The story begins with our first brief, impression of Kate, the maid. I think from this brief description, we see she is a person of pride in herself, and is developing into a splendid woman, a beauty with a ‘sensuous folding of her mouth’. She doesn’t wear an apron or cap, which would no doubt be ‘conventional’ for a maid, but rather wears “what even very ladies don”. I think that she seems to be youthful like Severn, and he seems to treat her on equal footing; afterall, he is but a lowly border/tenent in this house. As he is at the landlord's mercy, so is she. He's physically described in the next paragraph:Quote:
The maid who opened the door was just developing into a handsome womanhood. Therefore she seemed to have the insolent pride of one newly come to an inheritance. She would be a splendid woman to look at, having just enough of Jewish blood to enrich her comeliness into beauty. At nineteen her fine grey eyes looked challenge, and her warm complexion, her black hair looped up slack, enforced the sensuous folding of her mouth.
She wore no cap nor apron, but a well-looking sleeved overall such as even very ladies don.
I notice he bows to her, as if she were a lady, so I think he treats her respectfully. I think the mention of the tennis-racket and his white clothes, his graceful energy, already gives us this youthful 'vibrant' impression of Severn. I liked the statement in reference to ‘a sea-bird waving it’s wing leisurely,’ in describing how one would perceive him (unconsciously), his attraction in his movement. That seems to conjure up a certain image; kind of free and easy, natural. The last statement is interesting; seems to set up the idea that he is not as the youth of the day, ‘traditionally aggressive’. Ironic that the story begins with that statement, since later he does indeed become very aggressive, when provoked/attacked.Quote:
The man she opened to was tall and thin, but graceful in his energy. He wore white flannels, carried a tennis-racket. With a light bow to the maid he stepped beside her on the threshold. He was one of those who attract by their movement, whose movement is watched unconsciously, as we watch the flight of a sea-bird waving its wing leisurely. Instead of entering the house, the young man stood beside the maid-servant and looked back into the blackish evening. When in repose, he had the diffident, ironic bearing so remarkable in the educated youth of to-day, the very reverse of that traditional aggressiveness of youth.
Thunder, oppressive twilight, colourless atmosphere, dark, lustrous gray, oaks kindling “green like a low fire”; although it is sunset; all key words that anticipate something ominous to come, foreshadowing, seems to sets up the atmosphere from the beginning.Quote:
"It is going to thunder, Kate," he said.
"Yes, I think it is," she replied, on an even footing.
The young man stood a moment looking at the trees across the road, and on the oppressive twilight.
"Look," he said, "there's not a trace of colour in the atmosphere, though it's sunset; all a dark, lustrous grey; and those oaks kindle green like a low fire--see!"
Another thing that stands out is the words to describe Kate’s manor towards Severn, she replied“on an even footing.”
In this short discussion concerning her leaving, I do get the impression Severn is sorry to see her go; because first, he links the event with the coming thunderstorm/gloom of this evening, when he used the word 'troublesome'. Little does he know at this point how truly 'troublesome 'this evening will prove to be. I think the ‘faint tang of irony’ in his voice, when he asks her “Sorry you’re going?” seems to suggest he knows that she was not treated that nicely at the house or is there something I am not detecting. Antiquarian, would you call that subtext? What do you think of the line? Right after that it does say that “He laughed, as if he understood what was not said”….Quote:
"Yes," said Kate, rather awkwardly.
"A troublesome sort of evening; must be, because it's your last with us."
"Yes," said the girl, flushing and hardening.
There was another pause; then:
"Sorry you're going?" he asked, with a faint tang of irony.
"In some ways," she replied, rather haughtily.
He laughed, as if he understood what was not said, then, with an "Ah well!" he passed along the hall.
The maid stood for a few moments clenching her young fists, clenching her very breast in revolt. Then she closed the door.
We can discuss all this; please feel free to give any additional impressions/observations on this much of the text; I certainly don't know all. This part is a good beginning to the story and presents two of the characters to us; one, the main character and the other, a minor character, who does fit into the scheme of the story; remember who's trunk needs to be moved and who breaks up the fight? It also sets a mood, I think.
After this, we can go onto the part with the child and Severn in the garden. I liked that scene.
I think I will read quickly through the story again tonight; although I am reading another short Lawrence work; a novella and wanted to try and finish that soon; I guess I can put that on-hold one night, although I an captivated at this point.
How in the word did it get so late? I am so tired out.:eek:
I think that statement is meant to set up the fact that his fight with the landlord was out of character for Severn. Not something we should expect from him, or the kind of thing he has done before, but unique to the occasion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
I loved the way the thunder was descirbed in this story because I love storms. I felt the pressence of the storm, as well as the way they speak of it:Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Are indeed foreshadow, and a reflection upon what is to come. It is almost as if they already sense something is in the air, and this this night will not be like others.Quote:
"It is going to thunder, Kate," he said.
"Yes, I think it is," she replied, on an even footing.
The young man stood a moment looking at the trees across the road, and on the oppressive twilight.
"Look," he said, "there's not a trace of colour in the atmosphere, though it's sunset; all a dark, lustrous grey; and those oaks kindle green like a low fire--see!"
"Yes," said Kate, rather awkwardly.
"A troublesome sort of evening; must be, because it's your last with us."
I thought the words "A troublesome sort of evening; must be, because it's your last with us"
Were interesting, almost as if somehow her leaving is releated to the encounter with the landlord later, and it did start over the moving of her trunk. Not that was the reason why it happend, but how it came to happen.
Yes I agree that he was sad to see her leave, and did not agree with the way she was being treated, or the reasons she is being asked to leave.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Dark Muse, I will answer your post first and then go onto Antiquarian's. I saw yours here last night, DM, but was too tired to post; it was quite late.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
I agree with your statement above. The fight later does seem out of character with this impression we are first given. I believe thought that Lawrence felt that anyone was capable of a violent act if they were provoked or abused enough; I don't know if you were here when we read "The Pussian Officer". This was the case in the story. There are some slight similarities here. I am sure that Virgil will bring up that idea later; he liked that story and there is a similar scene in it, but much more tragic.
I did, too. I like thunderstorms but not when they is really heavy thunder and lightening; not since last year when a surge went through to my computer and it nearly whipped out my HD. Now I have to unplug too often to like it. However, a thunderstorm does set up the right kind of tension in this story from the start and I don't recall any other stories with thunderstorms do you, unless there was on in "The Man Who Loved Islands". I know there were storms and then a snowstorm but not sure of a thunderstorm. The flashing of light later on with the lightening makes this story interesting and even more tension filled.Quote:
I loved the way the thunder was descirbed in this story because I love storms. I felt the pressence of the storm, as well as the way they speak of it:
Exactly!Quote:
Are indeed foreshadow, and a reflection upon what is to come. It is almost as if they already sense something is in the air, and this this night will not be like others.
Could be; at anyrate the word is a good form of foreshadowing. I think also Severn at that point is saying her leaving is troublesome, at least to some, probably not to Mrs. Thomas. Maybe she is the only one wanting her expelled from the house. Doesn't Severn later on say it is a shame she has to leave. I think he does but don't have time not to look up specific statements; we will get to that part eventually anyway. I failed to read the story last night - got too late after my movie....sorry.Quote:
I thought the words "A troublesome sort of evening; must be, because it's your last with us" were interesting, almost as if somehow her leaving is releated to the encounter with the landlord later, and it did start over the moving of her trunk. Not that was the reason why it happend, but how it came to happen.
I took it that way. I felt he portrayed a feeling of futility, even helplessness in her being asked to leave. He really had no say in the matter, and that may have made him feel badly.Quote:
Yes I agree that he was sad to see her leave, and did not agree with the way she was being treated, or the reasons she is being asked to leave.
First he is kind of mocking Kate with Mrs. Thomas, but than later when he is moving the trunk with Mr. Thomas, he thinks to himself:Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Quote:
"Poor Kate" Severn thought. "It's a shame to kicke her out into the world, and all for nothing." He felt an impulse of hate towards womankind.
Antiquarian,I think she seemed resigned in her manor, but angry about it. I don't think she clenched her fists at Severn's question, but at the entire affair, that she has been told to leave. She can see that he is in no position to stick up for her either, how could he? He is only a tenent. I think that she feels double frustrated, that she is alone in all this; she has no defense for them keeping her on, so that has to be frustrating and causing her inner anger, which she subtly expresses and yet keeps contained. God knows where she is headed. I feel greatly for this young girl. I think Lawrence, through the narrator and Severn, does also. He is writing in sympathy for her lower class statis; he would know about his having been born the son of a collier. The Thomas' seem to think they are 'important' having a tenent and a maid and the husband working in public office. I think Severn would feel more aligned to Kate, than to the Thomas', even though he sees they are not happily married people and he has some attraction to Mrs. Thomas.Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiquarian
It does foreshadow it well; I addressed this in DM's post. It does seem the "perfect setting" for this particular story.Quote:
I don't particularly like storms myself, not unless they get themselves over quickly, but I like the way the thunderstorm foreshadows the wild events still to come that evening. I think the atmosphere of the storm is the perfect setting.
Quote:
I found this to be a piece for foreshadowing, too:
"When in repose, he had the diffident, ironic bearing so remarkable in the educated youth of today, the very reverse of that traditional aggressiveness of youth."
We know he's going to become quite aggressive later. Well, maybe not aggressive, I don't think he started the fight, but he was certainly involved and he certainly held his own.
Antiquarian, I think we think somewhat alike. This is from my earier post:
Quote by Janine
Quote by AntiquarianQuote:
The last statement is interesting; seems to set up the idea that he is not as the youth of the day, ‘traditionally aggressive’. Ironic that the story begins with that statement, since later he does indeed become very aggressive, when provoked/attacked.
One would think, with a storm brewing, it would be dark, but I suppose that's what Lawrence means, that the sunset is not at all colorful.[/QUOTE]Quote:
I also found it interesting that Severn said, "...there's not a trace of color in the atmosphere."
I think that is what he is saying. He is aluding to the fact that normally they would be enjoying a lovely colorful sunset but not this night - the night that seems to be ominious in many ways, first with Kate departing; he is really unaware at this moment of what will follow and develop this night. So I think basically he is saying her leaving is a colorless affair, sad.
If you read the whole text together - the conversation - I think you can see that line differently. At least, I see it as a question to Kate and it all depends on how he would say it, I suppose; the tone. I did feel he mean 'ironic' to the fact she was being tossed out of the household, outside of her own wishes, but also it could mean that she was not that liked and therefore she might not be that sorry to move on; all except the fact it is stated she has nowhere to go from here. She is 'between a rock and a hard place', as they say. She can't win either way - if she stayed she might not be too happy and resented, if she goes her future is unsure. It reminds me of Maddy in Ethan Frome; ever read the book? She is told to leave after aiding the sick wife and she has no where to go. If she stays she is abused verbally, is she goes she is destitude.Quote:
I'm not sure if Severn is sorry to see Kate go or not. He's ironic in tone and Kate clenches her fists at his remark. She didn't seem to like it. I didn't get the impression that Severn wanted her to go, but I sort of got the impression that he didn't care that much and that Kate resented the whole thing, as would be natural for her to do.
Kate clenches her fists and holds her breast tight because she is angry about the whole affair of being expelled not of Severn's remarks. I felt she liked Severn.Quote:
"Yes," said Kate, rather awkwardly.
"A troublesome sort of evening; must be, because it's your last with us."
"Yes," said the girl, flushing and hardening.
There was another pause; then:
"Sorry you're going?" he asked, with a faint tang of irony.
"In some ways," she replied, rather haughtily.
He laughed, as if he understood what was not said, then, with an "Ah well!" he passed along the hall.
I think it's ironic for the second reason you brought up. He's ironic because she probably does want to leave anyway. The maid's answer also makes it seem like she's at least partly glad to be leaving.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Yes, there's a connection between Severn and Kate that's more than just class. They appear to be attracted to each other somewhat. This is part of why Kate has to leave. She's being forced out because she's competition for the wife. The situation later with Severn and the couple is briefly mirrored here at the beginning--this time with two women and one man, instead of two men and one woman.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Yes I thought the same thingQuote:
Originally Posted by Quark
I think that Mrs. Thomas was jealous of Kate, I do not think Kate and Severn acutally previously had relations, but now that Kate is being noticed as a woman Mrs. Thomas did not want the young man around a woman younger than she is, and who has been described as being beautiful
I think there was sexual tension in the incident in which Severn first comes into the house where it says:
There talk of the storm could also be seen as sexual tension, refelction on the sort of tension that hovers in the air during an electric stormQuote:
Instead of entering the house, the young man stood beside the maid-servant and looked into the black evening.