On the Road- Kerouac

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Originally Posted by Hank Stamper

what kind of 'traveller' are you? i dont think kerouac was particularly interested in going sight seeing!
kerouac captured (as i have said on another thread somewhere) that sense of disillusionment and the will to resist the drudgery of everyday life by seeking spiritual fulfillment etc (and getting massively off your tits!).. if you question conformity and yearn for something more in life than what society expects of you, then kerouac makes perfect sense..
that will obviously never convince those vanguards of the dead white male's literary canon that kerouac is a great writer, but it is exactly the reason why he and on the road enjoys such cult status

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I have no idea what you mean here, nor do I find it relevant, nor intelligent, nor even worthy of reading, let alone related to anything written by Jack Keruoac. This forum does not allow personal attacks, and ***umptions themselves seem rude of what kind of 'traveller' you would place a label upon a stranger on an Internet forum, whose only recognition you give in a slang reference to breasts . . . what the fornication under consent of king?

Anyway, getting back on topic, and writing with good grammar, capitalizing the beginnings of sentences, and using correct punctuation, as I would expect every self-proclaimed freelance journalist to know (but intelligence can get affected by the frequent head trauma of football), Jack Keruoac seemed well renowned for his traveling. That he visited the tourist sites, I have no doubt he 'stopped by,' as in The Dharma Bums, he mentions a few tourist sites in my home city of Portland, Oregon (USA).
Most importantly, whether he contributed to tourism or not, as he receives some worthy mentions in helping the building of a Buddhist school established by his friend, Allen Ginsberg, no one can deny Keruoac's free-spiritedness. He often traveled by hitch-hiking, train, and by foot, frequently slept on the ground, and had no fear of exploring great lands with minimal funds.

ah you totally misunderstood me... so apologies if you thought it was a personal attack? i was merely asking what kind of 'traveller' you are? as im not sure kerouac was a 'traveller' in the conventional sense

and re. slang reference to breasts?? i was talking about kerouac's propensity for indulgence of the narcotic kind (ie. getting off one's tits/getting high)

once again, sorry if that offended you (perhaps i should have asked 'what kind of travel do you enjoy?')... and especially i offer my sincere non-apologies to mono for such wanton misuse of grammar and punctuation..
what i said was very much on-topic... the thread was about not 'getting' what the big deal is with kerouac, i was merely offering my views that kerouac captured that sense of disillusionment with everyday life and the will to resist it, and if you have ever yearned for something more, then kerouac appeals to those yearnings.. im not sure how that bit could be misconstrued as a personal attack (or unrelated to anything kerouac had written), i was trying to point out why he has such popular appeal.. he wasnt a 'tourist' in the conventional/current sense was my point...

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Originally Posted by mono

writing with good grammar, capitalizing the beginnings of sentences, and using correct punctuation, as I would expect every self-proclaimed freelance journalist to know (but intelligence can get affected by the frequent head trauma of football).

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how is this not a personal attack, out of interest?

i dont think there can be any misunderstanding here! :thumbs_up

I apologize, Hank Stamper, for the misunderstanding - definitely a fault on my part, and I obviously demonstrated my lack of knowledge in slang. Hopefully, we will not let our off-topic comments, nor my insolence, ruin this thread or literary discussion.

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Originally Posted by Hank Stamper

i was talking about kerouac's propensity for indulgence of the narcotic kind

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Indeed, Kerouac seemed very known for his . . . influence from substances, whether alcohol or illegal drugs in his time. He spent a lot of time with Allen Ginsberg and William S. Burroughs, who . . . if anyone has read Ginsberg's poetry or Burroughs' Naked Lunch, enough said. :D Kerouac, himself, even died at an early age from the health complications of alcoholism, liver cirrhosis and esophageal varices.
That many writers' influences came from substance abuse I think remarkable, and a lot of scientists even researched the influence of certain substances on creativity, like Dr. Timothy Leary, a good friend of some Beat poets.
What would have come of Jack Kerouac's literature without drugs? Since he consumed such by choice, I do not even want to imagine; if those substances contributed to his creativity, I suppose that further proves that the artist sometimes suffers for the sake of art.

Thank you for teh clarification Hank Stamper. When reading your first post it just struck me as quite agressive and provocative in it's tone, and therefore my reaction. And thank you for your views on Kerouac.

Reading on the road atm.
It is interesting, wouldn't say it was good though.

yes it was a rather ill-phrased question! and no worries mono, i should probably choose my colloquialisms more carefully in future ;)

re. kerouac's drink and drunk abuse.. it obviously had an impact on his creativity - i wonder in the long run whether positive or negative... certainly to use hunter s. thompson as an example (one of my favourite writers), the drug abuse had a negative effect on the quality and output of his later work... i would say that certain drugs do make you look at the world in a different way/alter perceptions (ask any hippy! ;) ) and in that sense may well have a positive influence on creativity, but it is clear (IMO) that when drug use (and booze) becomes an addiction, then creativity definitely falters and writers tend towards repetition ..

and as you mention, there are the obvious health implications, which is sadly why we lost kerouac so soon

Maybe the year before last I re- read it. I originally read it as a teenager, and it called to me...it's what made me love reading, and I really empathized with the searching lostness in it.

When I re-read it, I loved it for the language.. There are some heart-breakingly beautiful descriptions in there. For me it's like Fitzgerald- the novels are flawed, but within them lies some places where the English language is at the height of it's beauty.

I also loved it for what it is historically--a outpouring of the serious brokenness and individual isolation of so many who grew up in post-war America. It's like Rebel Without a Cause--it touches on what was sacrosanct- talking about the seriously messed up family dynamics of the 50's. And like Rebel, Kerouac seems to think that meaning and redemption lies within one's friends. And I find that especially relevant right now, as there are circles of people who hearken back to the 1950's as some sort of idyllic dreamworld--and yet the 50's are what paved the way to the upheaval of the 60's.

I also like that there isn't a neat tidy ending, that the search for meaning feels somewhat unfulfilled--because there are times when that is precisely how I feel. I think many, many people sort of wander through their lives from island to island of experience- with lots of desolation and lostness in between.

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Originally Posted by BeccaT

On the Road is a beatnik, hippy sort of classic. It's an anthem for everybody who's ever felt the passion of the wandering feet. Who's just wanted that adventure and freedom. For some people, life isn't about the progression of infancy-school-work-marriage-kids-death and the conventional patterns that are dictated by society. For some, it's just about the experiential value. I believe Kerouac is one of them.

I love On the Road.

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yes. counter culture living. taken in it's time it is an extraordinary tale of folks yearning to breathe free. if you think that america even today has been shackled by the corporate structure and a very sophisticated police state that does the bidding for the powerful, kerouac is for you.

to live outside the law you must be honest. kerouac at this stage in his life still had some juice and had the energy to live life as a footloose and fancy free anarchist, buoyed by the spirit of cassady. his books (desolation angels, dharma bums also) are a liberating force for those wanting to break out of the straight jacket that society tries to dress them in.

To be honest, this is more of a Geography textbook than a novel.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inFtwnp0R0g

Kerouac's novel considered inside one of the best college classrooms in America.

Thanks for the link - good stuff.

What do people think? Most seem to just go nuts over this book and I sit here wondering what is wrong with me. It's a hard read for me, because I instantly got sucked in emotionally. I fell for Sal (Kerouac) and then toward the last hundred pages realized he was a giant bum. Dean is a product of the 'system', and even still, his history, does not redeem his tragic or flawed character. My one recurring thought is: why is Sal so fascinated by Dean? I'm not finished yet, but will be soon.

:rolleyes:

Not impressed- thought it was overrated. There is something inauthentic about Kerouac and thus the novel. He seemed to be striking a pose- to be too self consciously playing the part of the romantic, free American drifter 50 or more years too late. That's why I dislike Hemingway as well. They were both poseurs playing a part.

It's a book i enjoyed a great deal when i was 17-18. Undoubtedly Kerouac was striking a pose, but i don't think that makes him inauthentic. Indeed, i think 'On the Road' recognises your point Wickes. He (Sal/Kerouac) was probably too late in more ways than one.

and have only recently read On the Road and am now reading Dharma Bums. I think On the Road tells the story of the late forties in America quite well. This was an age when young Americans could hitchhike from coast-to-coast without worrying about serial killers etc. I am several years younger than Kerouac would have been, but I think you had to experience those years personally, especially the modern jazz as it was then called, to have an appreciation of Kerouac.

Also, to lump Kerpouac and Hemingway together, and as poseurs, comes across as a supercillious presumption by one who has a lot of growing up to do himself. He, the poster, needs to rid himself of such obvious pedantic notions. If anything, his posts are boring.

Read the Original Scrolls. For a start you'll know who he's talking about (no pseudonyms) and secondly it's unedited. If you want to understand what Kerouac is getting at you need to read what he meant to be published. I didn't get the impression it was a pose. My impression was more that Kerouac was sitting back and observing and recording. Perhaps that's why Neal is so important, he's the spark that lights the fire but in the end he's all burned out. Everyone else moves on. I found it at times difficult, at times boring, at times profound. But it also struck me as an interesting mirror of life which shares those qualities. In the end, aren't we all on the road?

It's good to see different perspectives on the book. Reading it is like being on a roller coaster ride, because you literally are being taken for a ride. I'm not one for such pacing.

I can appreciate the honest portrait of America Kerouac writes. It seems to really be a time when people could hitch hike across the country without the same level of fear we experience today. Things were less computerized and more isolated, so life in some ways, seems simpler.

I have read one book by Hemingway and I can see why the two get compared. They both had a way of writing about whats occurred around them as well as adding their own characters in the story. However, when they put themselves in the story, their characters are likable, but also flawed. I think they both wrote about themselves well.

"That's not writing. That's typing."

Truman Capote, considering On The Road.

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Originally Posted by MarkBastable

"That's not writing. That's typing."

Truman Capote, considering On The Road.

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Funny that this was said by somebody whose work was so mediocre that will be soon completely forgotten.

Kerouac's novels did captured a whole era, though I understand that young people find it hard to understand them today. In spite of the different opinions on their value as literature, they remain as some of the most important works of the 20th century and will be read by many generations.

kerouac is clearly divisive but i love on the road, think it perfectly captures the restlessness of youth and that search for something beyond the everyday drudgery of mainstream society / rejecting conformity etc and living by your own rules .. he has a lust and appreciation for life that i think many people can relate to, or find inspiring ..

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Originally Posted by lupe

Funny that this was said by somebody whose work was so mediocre that will be soon completely forgotten.

Kerouac's novels did captured a whole era, though I understand that young people find it hard to understand them today. In spite of the different opinions on their value as literature, they remain as some of the most important works of the 20th century and will be read by many generations.

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I don't agree with Capote because I'm young - which I'm not - or because I like Capote - which I don't - but because I think it's a valid, if glib, encapsulation of what Kerouac did. What Kerouac did, I'd say, was little more than turning a magazine article into a philosophy. I don't think he captured an era at all -I think he attempted to capture the big idea of a tiny minority of a large country at a significant moment.

And I think that's a valuable thing to do. In fact, I think that's exactly what cutting edge fiction should do - it should universalise the specific. It should illuminate corners.

I just don't think Jack was very good at it.

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Originally Posted by MarkBastable

I don't agree with Capote because I'm young - which I'm not - or because I like Capote - which I don't - but because I think it's a valid, if glib, encapsulation of what Kerouac did. What Kerouac did, I'd say, was little more than turning a magazine article into a philosophy. I don't think he captured an era at all -I think he attempted to capture the big idea of a tiny minority of a large country at a significant moment.

And I think that's a valuable thing to do. In fact, I think that's exactly what cutting edge fiction should do - it should universalise the specific. It should illuminate corners.

I just don't think Jack was very good at it.

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You are certainly not the only one who thinks so, though the wide fame of his works - and the amount of discussion that has genereated - suggest the contrary.

Kerouac did inspire a lot of people of his generation and the next ones; if this is not an indication of sucesfully "illuminating corners", then what it-is ?

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Originally Posted by lupe

You are certainly not the only one who thinks so, though the wide fame of his works - and the amount of discussion that has genereated - suggest the contrary.

Kerouac did inspire a lot of people of his generation and the next ones; if this is not an indication of sucesfully "illuminating corners", then what it-is ?

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I'm not trying to persuade you not to like it. I'm simply mentioning that I don't think it's much good. I could go on at some length about why I don't think it's much good, just as you could offer a perfectly cogent argument as to why it's very good.

But can we be bothered? Let's just agree that Tom Waits is very good indeed.

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Originally Posted by MarkBastable

Let's just agree that Tom Waits is very good indeed.

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Here, here.

I loved this book when I read it, and from reading it started to loook at life in a much more spontaneous way...whether this is a good outcome or not is debatable. I am not going to go into they whys too much, as this is page 13 of this thread and most reasons have probably already given for both liking and disliking this book.
I just found this a very enjoyable read, and it was just my cup of tea. I could understand why people don't like it though.
I recently read Maggie Cassidy, one of Kerouacs more poetic books, definitely worth a read. And for anyone who liked On The Road could I reccomend Memoirs Of A Beatnik by Diane Di Prima? And of course, you would have read Howl...

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Originally Posted by MarkBastable

I'm not trying to persuade you not to like it. I'm simply mentioning that I don't think it's much good. I could go on at some length about why I don't think it's much good, just as you could offer a perfectly cogent argument as to why it's very good.

But can we be bothered? Let's just agree that Tom Waits is very good indeed.

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Ha, you knew I'd never disagree with this statement... :nod:

By the way, he had composed music and read some passages from Kerouac's "On the Road" ;) and in the 70s, he was often referred to as the last "beatnik"...

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Originally Posted by lupe

By the way, he had composed music and read some passages from Kerouac's "On the Road" ;) and in the 70s, he was often referred to as the last "beatnik"...

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Yeah, but Waits could write.

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Originally Posted by MarkBastable

Yeah, but Waits could write.

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And so could Kerouac!