The Christian Hell

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Originally Posted by The Atheist

First off, I'd never give you a hard time; while we disagree on many things, your views are honest & heartfelt, and I have no trouble with people holding views which are different or opposite from mine.

I hope you get to play with some dolphins some day, because I'd guarantee that it would confirm for you that they are cognitively smart.

I just wish we could figure out how to communicate with them. And you're right about mammals - most of them are indeed social animals.



Just on the border of long enough

:D

And no, your posts don't come over as self-centred in any way. Like most people with zen-like persuasions, I find your attitude commendable and I've said on many occasions that the world would be a much better place if everyone were Buddhist. I believe that's true, because I admire the non-violent, conciliatory inclusiveness of Buddhism.

I just could never get by without steak.

:)



Wasn't me was it?

:lol::lol::lol:

I said that to a couple of people yesterday.

Quite seriously, the whole theism/atheism debate is one where a little naivete is a good thing. Every single person on the planet has their own doctrine and every one of them is based on personal experience, so why should you take notice of anyone else's doctrine.

One of the smartest blokes ever, Bertrand Russell, said we should question all philosophies, even our own. Well, if you're naive, you sure haven't been tainted by someone else's doctrine, and that's got to be good.

Are dolphins atruistic? We can't say for certain, but based upon quite extensive evidence from studies in the wild, it seems that they are. Altruism exists alright - the disagreement is about why it exists. I say evolution, theists say god...



Depends who you talk to. Some sects say there will be animals in heaven, and in the bible, Jesus himself says that not a sparrow farts without his old man knowing about it.

(Or words to that effect ;) )



They aren't frustrated by that alone. You have - as I showed - repeated the same line about non-believers going to hell several times. That's what gets people upset. I accept that you're just speaking your mind, but is anything served by repeating it?

When it is repeated several times, it can look insulting.

It doesn't bother me; I've had my spot as Satan's right hand man picked out for years. That's why I'm The Atheist and not some other kind of atheist.

:D



Well. some can and some can't. I think you should at least try to see how someone repeating that they will be tortured eternally for not believing in your god can be hurtful, though. What you're doing is describing a religion which lives on fear - fear of being sent to hell if we don't act the prescribed way.



You talk about the values of christianity as being identical to your thoughts, but there is no agreed "values of christianity". Heaven is certainly about 100% belief among christians, but hell is viewed very differently by sects, so you can't say that your views agree with wider christianity. I'm not saying either one is better than another, just different, but if your personal view matches your church's view, then that's good.



That's an admirable attitude, but you need to understand that to non-theists, your view of your god, heaven and hell is the least attractive version of christianity. A god who punishes people eternally - for whatever reason - isn't all that appealing.

I've been talking to atheists for decades and I'm 100% certain that today's militant atheism was spawned by yesterday's rise of fundamental christianity.



I'm interested to know what constitutes "full christian knowledge" and why that's important, because so far, the only reason you've advanced is that god says so, so it must be true. Given that no evidence exists other than what the bible says, regarding hell, there's little else to know. Plus, I must reiterate that the bible is read very differently between differing sects.

Based on that, and allowing that you're not even the millionth person to repeat god's rules in that way, it's actually quite easy to understand why people dismiss it without going any further.



I'm not going to get too involved in this because it calls for a history of religion lesson. Suffice to say that there isn't anything in the christian religion which hasn't been borrowed from elsewhere - virgin birth, resurrection, miraculous happenings, god-on-earth.... all of them have earlier origins. To me, and many atheists, the bible is a collection of just-so stories of little or no value.

Once we get through that, I'd have to list the inconsistencies and oturight contradictions of the bible, of which there are hundreds. Do you eat shellfish or pork? Do men in your church shave their beards? These things are expressly prohibited in the bible, and in the very same chapters I've heard used in sermons against homosexuality at fundamental churches. And that's just the tip of the iceberg... the she-bears, the iron chariots... there are just so many that I find it impossible to accept that anyone can interpret it consistently.

It is a mockery to then insist that the book is infallibly right.



Not what I meant, I'd seen that post, but no problem.

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You are taking things waaay too far out of context.


1)you said:
"Depends who you talk to. Some sects say there will be animals in heaven, and in the bible, Jesus himself says that not a sparrow farts without his old man knowing about it."

Jesus is not talking about heaven at all! he is talking about love!

Here is the passage you are talking about:

Matthew 10: 29-31
Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father. And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. So don't be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.

In Jesus' day, sparrows were the most worthless kind of bird you could get. But Jesus shows that he loves those sparrows so much, how much more so humans! So this is not about heaven whatsoever. it is about love.


2) have you ever thought that history "stole" from the bible, and not the other way around?

You said:
"I'm interested to know what constitutes "full christian knowledge" and why that's important, because so far, the only reason you've advanced is that god says so, so it must be true. Given that no evidence exists other than what the bible says, regarding hell, there's little else to know. Plus, I must reiterate that the bible is read very differently between differing sects."


3)
point 1)of course there's no way evidence that exists outside of the bible of hell! it's something outside of this world, this universe.

point 2) this is where much misunderstanding happens. you have to look at the bible yourself. not compare it to how others interpret it. many sects strongly go against biblical doctrine, i completely agree. Mormonism, Jehovah's Witness, and Penecostals all have things to address because of very different interpretations, just to name a few. But look at the Bible yourself. have you read it in your free time at all? i can not emphasize this point enough!



4)

You said:
"Once we get through that, I'd have to list the inconsistencies and oturight contradictions of the bible, of which there are hundreds. Do you eat shellfish or pork? Do men in your church shave their beards? These things are expressly prohibited in the bible, and in the very same chapters I've heard used in sermons against homosexuality at fundamental churches. And that's just the tip of the iceberg... the she-bears, the iron chariots... there are just so many that I find it impossible to accept that anyone can interpret it consistently.

It is a mockery to then insist that the book is infallibly right."

i'd have to look specifically at what contradictions there are that you are talking about (if you'd like to send them to me, please do) but this again has somewhat to do with interpretation. the "do you eat shellfish or pork?" question i can answer for you right now. let's look at the two references:

To see the whole list of what was restricted in the Old Testament, go to biblegateway.com and look up Leviticus 11.

Then:


Jesus addresses this issue in Mark 7: 18-20:
"Are you so dull?" he asked. "Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him 'unclean'? For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body." (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods "clean.")

He went on: "What comes out of a man is what makes him 'unclean.' For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. All these evils come from inside and make a man 'unclean.' "



Talking about the apostle peter:

He [peter] saw heaven opened and something like a large sheet being let down to earth by its four corners. It contained all kinds of four-footed animals, as well as reptiles of the earth and birds of the air. Then a voice told him, "Get up, Peter. Kill and eat."

"Surely not, Lord!" Peter replied. "I have never eaten anything impure or unclean."

The voice spoke to him a second time, "Do not call anything impure that God has made clean."

This happened three times, and immediately the sheet was taken back to heaven.


The Jews were trying to justify themselves because they were following the food codes given in the Old Testament, but Jesus is saying that that is not what is important. It is the internal that is important, not the external. There are a few other reasons, but this is one of the main ones.

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Originally Posted by limajean

Well I guess that's a matter of opinion. But to me, anyone who believes our creator will burn us all in hell because we're not bending at the knees is slightly delusional, not as a person, but in their beliefs. I'm sick of the politically correct nonsense we have to stick to these days. No one can say what they really feel or what everyone is thinking because it's not "right" to do so. Things would be solved a lot quicker if people didn't tip toe. I don't tip toe. It may offend you but atleast i play it straight, i see no point in adding a silver lining.

Damn - okay that there, really is my last post..

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You say you have come from a Buddhist family - now this doesn't necessarily mean you are Buddhist but if you are, I'd remind you of something the Buddha said in the dhammapada- that only by loving kindness can hate be defeated.

Damnit I always post in reply to something I thought was the last reply but then there's a awhole new page of posts.

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Originally Posted by limajean

How is it a logical consequence that not accepting leads to Hell? How is that logical at all - you have not one ounce of proof, with the exception of what, the bible?
That's like me saying that wizards are real because i have Harry Potter to prove it.

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One of the fundamental problems that many nonbelievers struggle with is the idea that God's character defines good and bad, right and wrong; He does not arbitrarily arrive at the definitions of those two things. As such, God could not make sin "good" - sin is contrary to the nature of God. As such, because God is the source of all creation and all life, and He is the sustainor of all creation and all life, to reject Him is to reject life itself. Just because the person doesn't immediately die doesn't mean what I've said isn't true - God continues to sustain the lives of those who don't believe in Him because it takes a sustained rejection of God over time for Him to finally let the sinner have his/her way. Hell is the only logical destination for those who ultimately and finally reject God - the rest of the universe is filled with His presence - for those who reject Him, His presence would be sheer torture. Hell provides a place for those who reject God to live in eternity out of His presence. But - since God is love, and the source of all goodness, hell won't be very pleasant - not necessarily in a Dantean way, but a way best described by sheer emptiness, and nothingness.

Second, the Bible has to be the authority, because without it we have no stable "ground" upon which to make statements about God; your attack upon Him is largely made based upon what the Bible says (or you think it says) - you can't discredit the source of your argument - that's contradictory.

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Originally Posted by limajean

You're assuming i haven't read the Bible. At no point have i ever stated that i haven't.

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I am assuming - just as I would assume you'd not read the instructions for assembling something if you put that something together wrongly.

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Originally Posted by Delta40

I think brutally honest is when you have no concern about what impact your statements will have upon another person. It's where you take no personal responsibility for what you say. It's a buck passing strategy.

Heaps of people cloak themselves this way.

Consider the following example:

'You're going to burn in Hell if you don't accept God as your saviour. By the way, I am not responsible for the hurt, fear and distrust that I invoke through my statements.....but I will (coz I'm doing the Lord's work, afterall) if you turn to God and accept him'

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That's very good!

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Originally Posted by Rush_of_Blood

Jesus is not talking about heaven at all! he is talking about love!

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I was making a light-hearted response - I know exactly what it says. Despite that, there are lots of christians who believe animals have a soul and go to heaven when they die.

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Originally Posted by Rush_of_Blood

2) have you ever thought that history "stole" from the bible, and not the other way around?

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:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

No. There are several myths which pre-date the bible. It's not possible for them to have stolen ideas from the bible.

Nice try, but Egyptian gods didn't exist long before the christian and Jewish ones failed to exist.

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Originally Posted by Rush_of_Blood

3)
point 1)of course there's no way evidence that exists outside of the bible of hell! it's something outside of this world, this universe.

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Yes, which confirms my point - hell exists in a book. So does Magrathea, but I don't believe that exists either.

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Originally Posted by Rush_of_Blood

have you read it in your free time at all? i can not emphasize this point enough!

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I've read the bible several times in several different versions.

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Originally Posted by Rush_of_Blood

i'd have to look specifically at what contradictions there are that you are talking about (if you'd like to send them to me, please do) but this again has somewhat to do with interpretation. the "do you eat shellfish or pork?" question i can answer for you right now. let's look at the two references:

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Which confirms the contradiction. One part of the bible specifically says some food is unclean, Jesus says it isn't. That's what a contradiction is - the same book saying two opposed things.

If you want other inconsistencies, read the book yourself, but keep both eyes open. Here's a good place to start: Internet Infidels' list. As I said, there are literally hundreds.

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Originally Posted by The Atheist

First off, I'd never give you a hard time; while we disagree on many things, your views are honest & heartfelt, and I have no trouble with people holding views which are different or opposite from mine.

I hope you get to play with some dolphins some day, because I'd guarantee that it would confirm for you that they are cognitively smart.

I just wish we could figure out how to communicate with them. And you're right about mammals - most of them are indeed social animals.



Just on the border of long enough

And no, your posts don't come over as self-centred in any way. Like most people with zen-like persuasions, I find your attitude commendable and I've said on many occasions that the world would be a much better place if everyone were Buddhist. I believe that's true, because I admire the non-violent, conciliatory inclusiveness of Buddhism.

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I respect your opinions as well. I don't share your enthusiasm for Bertrand Russell though I haven't read anything completely by him yet. Sometimes you can find literature to be better than philosophy.

I was an atheist until I was around 17. At some point I began to read Bhagavad-Gita, Song of our Lord. Bhagavad-Gita, or Gitopanisad, is a 700 verse, 18 chapter song, which is spoken by Krsna to Arjuna on the battlefield of Kurukshestra. It covers the topics of jiva, the living entity; karma, activities; time; prakriti, nature; and isvara, the supreme controller. Nature is part of the inferior energy of isvara, the supreme controller, and the living entity is part of the superior energy. The jiva is part of the superior energy because it is transcendental. All jivas are part of the supreme, the isvara. So the natural position of a jiva is fulfilling the function of the supreme. Isvara is Bhagavan, and it is the root of existence. Just like as a hand which is separated from the body may resemble a hand but does not carry out the functions of a hand, if a person is separated from Krsna, who is the root of existence, then he ceases to function as well. Or if you do not succeed in acting for Krsna, then your actions do not matter at all. You only matter insofar as you matter to the root of existence. But the flip side - the good part - is that you do matter. You are infinite, since you are an eternal servant of the supreme. You are not meant to try to become God in this life, but rather to try to serve him and do everything for him.

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Originally Posted by The Atheist

the issue seems to be a peculiar one to me, because it says that all sin is equitable - no matter whether I'm a child-eating murderer or simply an atheist, I'm going to hell. It would be a strange contradiction that a god, variously described as compassionate, loving and caring for humans would inflict identical suffering.

Opinions?

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:lol::lol:Now this man knows what he's talking about!

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Originally Posted by Son of Tiamat

hi im new to the forums, but i was just wondering if you were to kill yourself to save others do you not become a martyr. but from what i know if you kill yourself you automatically go to hell in the christian belief

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Yes, if you kill yourself for self hatred or thinking the world is unfit for yourself, you end up going to hell because we Christian believe that our bodies are like the holy temple as it was constructed in the image of God.

Killing yourself in order to save others is not suicide, it is called sacrifice, and therefore different.

Question: Do unbelievers bound for hell have eternal life? Eternal life is promised to believers, not to those steeped in sin. So then, how is hell eternal? In Revelation we read: "And death and hell were cast into the Lake of Fire which is the second death." Jesus said "Fear God who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Destruction means that at some point something no longer exists. To burn in hell eternally would require eternal existence. Forever and ever then becomes a long space of time, but it will end. The word eternal is not used in the Bible to describe hell. Just a thought.

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Originally Posted by limajean

You believe that religion is not flawed?

okay i can't be bothered wasting any more time talking to delusionals.


You follow blindly, Skasian..



That'll be the last post from me. This thread gives me a headache.

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Solving a problem that causes headache implies you are struggling.
I do not consider myself following blindly when the person who is struggling seems to be you.

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Originally Posted by The Atheist

They aren't frustrated by that alone. You have - as I showed - repeated the same line about non-believers going to hell several times. That's what gets people upset. I accept that you're just speaking your mind, but is anything served by repeating it?

When it is repeated several times, it can look insulting.

It doesn't bother me; I've had my spot as Satan's right hand man picked out for years. That's why I'm The Atheist and not some other kind of atheist.

:D
Well. some can and some can't. I think you should at least try to see how someone repeating that they will be tortured eternally for not believing in your god can be hurtful, though. What you're doing is describing a religion which lives on fear - fear of being sent to hell if we don't act the prescribed way.



You talk about the values of christianity as being identical to your thoughts, but there is no agreed "values of christianity". Heaven is certainly about 100% belief among christians, but hell is viewed very differently by sects, so you can't say that your views agree with wider christianity. I'm not saying either one is better than another, just different, but if your personal view matches your church's view, then that's good.



That's an admirable attitude, but you need to understand that to non-theists, your view of your god, heaven and hell is the least attractive version of christianity. A god who punishes people eternally - for whatever reason - isn't all that appealing.

I've been talking to atheists for decades and I'm 100% certain that today's militant atheism was spawned by yesterday's rise of fundamental christianity.



I'm interested to know what constitutes "full christian knowledge" and why that's important, because so far, the only reason you've advanced is that god says so, so it must be true. Given that no evidence exists other than what the bible says, regarding hell, there's little else to know. Plus, I must reiterate that the bible is read very differently between differing sects.

Based on that, and allowing that you're not even the millionth person to repeat god's rules in that way, it's actually quite easy to understand why people dismiss it without going any further.



I'm not going to get too involved in this because it calls for a history of religion lesson. Suffice to say that there isn't anything in the christian religion which hasn't been borrowed from elsewhere - virgin birth, resurrection, miraculous happenings, god-on-earth.... all of them have earlier origins. To me, and many atheists, the bible is a collection of just-so stories of little or no value.

Once we get through that, I'd have to list the inconsistencies and oturight contradictions of the bible, of which there are hundreds. Do you eat shellfish or pork? Do men in your church shave their beards? These things are expressly prohibited in the bible, and in the very same chapters I've heard used in sermons against homosexuality at fundamental churches. And that's just the tip of the iceberg... the she-bears, the iron chariots... there are just so many that I find it impossible to accept that anyone can interpret it consistently.

It is a mockery to then insist that the book is infallibly right.



Not what I meant, I'd seen that post, but no problem.

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Me repeating the lines of who goes to hell, if it caused so much anger, then from now on I will not emphasise this line. However isnt it true that if any one that is prepared to discuss The Christian Hell, they should be ready to hear about the true values and aspects Christian believe about their Hell?

If some one thought that Christianity lives their life in fear,then I would like to let them know in some aspects yes, but mostly no. God is capable of anything so it is true that if we commit sin, then yes, we fear God will punish us in unexpected ways. However for going to hell, I think not. I believe and most Christians believe that if you believe Jesus as our saviour, then there is no reason for us to worry about going to hell.

I have never met a Christian that did not believe in heaven but may be there is that small number of Christians that do. But if you become a Christian and believer of God, it is very likely that you will understand God created heaven and hell in the first few pages of Genesis.

Yes, I agree that for most atheists, the Christian view of who goes to heaven or hell is unappealing, and I dont blame them to think this way. All some people need is more elaborated explaining that will help them understand it is not "unfair" or "stupid".

Now let me tell you that before Christ there were prophesies about his comings and there were false prophesies too that talked about false Christ and false saviours therefore may of made up the earlier origins that clearly was untrue.

I know there will be much incredulousness, however let me share with you something that can answer some views about Christian hell and heaven that isnt accountable from the bible. Bible may be the recordings of God's Words however as I told you before, the Bible is not the only method to interact with God. There are prayers and spiritual encounters. Miracles and supernatural events that cannot be explained by science. Many skeptics say this can be explained by psychology but in reality, it cannot. I have been to a church that practised anointing, and many people who had incurable diseases such as tumour, people who were paralysed were all healed. Talking in tongues and prophesising occured, and hearing the voice of God all occured. People began to see angels and demons, and their body began to move to praise God by the spirit. Our voices were raised and sang praises that we were unfamiliar of. As some people were anointed, their minds and spiritual being were transfered, heaven and hell. The Pastor asked the people who experienced the journey to heaven and hell individually and all of them seem to describe or draw the scene exactly the same. It was the same realms they were explaining. One child encountered a vision, where she was to eat a golden scroll taste of honey, when she came back to reality, gold dust appeared around her mouth, and many people saw gold dust forming in their own palms. Some people's palms had oil, a spiritual oil that helped cure an incurable disease. Some people began to read other people's mind and troubles, and they began to help these troubled people by communicating with God directly. There was a person who was possessed by the devil and it was the most frightning thing, where people had to lay their hands and ask God to remove such spirit. The miracles kept on coming, and I know that this church is only one of the many churches that God had come to help his people.
Incredulous or not, I just wanted to point out that Christian hell and heaven does exist no matter what other Christians may think.

"Do you eat shellfish or pork? Do men in your church shave their beards? These things are expressly prohibited in the bible,"

These lines come from the old testiment, where the Jews still follow today. Christians do not follow these lines as Jesus had come to sacrifice his own blood and these old rules are not to be carried out since Him. Same with sacrifising animals to God. Jesus had removed these systems just for us.

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Originally Posted by skasian

I have been to a church that practised anointing, and many people who had incurable diseases such as tumour, people who were paralysed were all healed.

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How do you know tumours were cured? Could you see the tumour then see it gone?

You may think you've seen those things happen, but it's factual that not one single instance of miraculous divine cure has been recorded in the entirety of medical history.

The other side of the coin is that if your god is able to cure people on earth, then why does he let so many children die? Did their parents not pray hard enough?

You live in NZ - we have a couple of famous cases of parents being prosecuted & convicted for neglect because they tried, and failed, to get their god to cure their child instead of taking it to the doctor. Did those people not pray hard enough, or does your god need more martyrs?

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Originally Posted by skasian

Incredulous or not, I just wanted to point out that Christian hell and heaven does exist no matter what other Christians may think.

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Yes, you know, isn't it funny how each different sect of christianity thinks their one is right and the others wrong? Almost two billion christians would disagree with you on hell, but your sect is right, of course.

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Originally Posted by skasian

These lines come from the old testiment, where the Jews still follow today. Christians do not follow these lines as Jesus had come to sacrifice his own blood and these old rules are not to be carried out since Him. Same with sacrifising animals to God. Jesus had removed these systems just for us.

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This is quite funny - denying it because it's in the OT. Do you also deny the myths of creation, the great flood, Moses & Jonah and the thousand other lies in the OT?

If the OT is just a Jewish book, how come the prophecies of Jesus' coming are in it?

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Originally Posted by The Atheist

How do you know tumours were cured? Could you see the tumour then see it gone?

You may think you've seen those things happen, but it's factual that not one single instance of miraculous divine cure has been recorded in the entirety of medical history.

The other side of the coin is that if your god is able to cure people on earth, then why does he let so many children die? Did their parents not pray hard enough?

You live in NZ - we have a couple of famous cases of parents being prosecuted & convicted for neglect because they tried, and failed, to get their god to cure their child instead of taking it to the doctor. Did those people not pray hard enough, or does your god need more martyrs?



Yes, you know, isn't it funny how each different sect of christianity thinks their one is right and the others wrong? Almost two billion christians would disagree with you on hell, but your sect is right, of course.



This is quite funny - denying it because it's in the OT. Do you also deny the myths of creation, the great flood, Moses & Jonah and the thousand other lies in the OT?

If the OT is just a Jewish book, how come the prophecies of Jesus' coming are in it?

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As tumors being cured, someone who was praying for that person heard God speak that that person was cured. To check, that person went to the doctors for an examination, and it was true there was nothing there. There are actually many cases like this, such as extreme cases of Arthritis being cured the moment people pray for them.

I am quite unsure why not there have been medical history about this, all I know that doctor dismiss people that have been miaculously cured with no further recording. That is an interesting fact which should be investigated.

About children dying, this is completely up to God where He is in control who may be saved and who wouldnt. In fact, it is just one of the aspects that we humans cannot understand about God. I must admit that I was confused why God seem to make someone be born in such places where death seems imminent without the chance to know God. I have decided that this was our responsibility, dividing people by their level of wealth and our greed. I believe that it is our responsibility to go on missions to give an opportunity to such people that they have a choice to believe in God. What happends for them afterlife I do not know as it is not their fault that they do not know God.

I did hear some news in NZ about letting people die or attempting a dead person arise from the dead. I believe that is wrong because I heard that these people claimed that they were the messiah and proving other people they have the power. This is sin, and against the Will of God. The people who got cured in the church I went to were people that even the doctors couldnt help and so it was an act of asking God for His miracle and mercy to happen, not the other way around.

No no you misunderstood about the old testiment. What you were talking about (such as not eating pig and no beards) were Laws of Moses, the laws that God sent down that included the sacrificing of animals. When Jesus sacrificed Himself, the Laws of Moses were broken, and there was no need of these Laws. I believe that the ten commandments were the only law that were to be kept. I never said the old testiment was a Jewish book and I do not know whether they believe in the whole book of the old testiment. You should ask a Jewish person whether they leave out the books that contain the prophecies about the coming of Messiah.

"Yes, you know, isn't it funny how each different sect of christianity thinks their one is right and the others wrong? Almost two billion christians would disagree with you on hell, but your sect is right, of course."
Could you please elaborate? I am unfamiliar about this especially the billions of Christian that disagree about hell, as hell is in the bible, I dont see why not they do not believe in hell.

Skasian every point you're making is not only flawed - but seems to be trying to stitch up the holes in what you believe to be "facts".

"Incredulous or not, I just wanted to point out that Christian hell and heaven does exist no matter what other Christians may think."

In that statement you even admit that other Christians have alternative beliefs. What makes you right? of all the billions of people in the world why should we believe you?
You speak as if from fact.
It seems to me that you're taking Hell and Heaven too literally - if such a thing does in fact exist. Perhaps Hell is only a state of mind - a "place" that is without God.
Though the world seems to be without God today - so maybe we're already there.

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Originally Posted by limajean

Skasian every point you're making is not only flawed - but seems to be trying to stitch up the holes in what you believe to be "facts".

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It's one thing to tell someone his/her points are "flawed" and quite another thing to show how this is so.

For Christians, heaven and hell ARE facts.

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Originally Posted by limajean

You speak as if from fact.

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See above.

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Originally Posted by limajean

It seems to me that you're taking Hell and Heaven too literally - if such a thing does in fact exist. Perhaps Hell is only a state of mind - a "place" that is without God.
Though the world seems to be without God today - so maybe we're already there.

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So if we take it "somewhat literally" that's OK? How do you take something "too literally"? Can something be partially literal, partially metaphoric?

The world seems to be without God - good, you have qualified correctly.

This world isn't hell - God has not withdrawn His presence from it - hell is defined as the place God is not; right now, He is still here - we still have beauty, we still have love, compassion, mercy, justice (to a certain extent), generosity, etc. Without God's presence, none of these things would exist because our ability to enact them even in our most mitigated ways comes from HIM.

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Originally Posted by skasian

As tumors being cured, someone who was praying for that person heard God speak that that person was cured. To check, that person went to the doctors for an examination, and it was true there was nothing there. There are actually many cases like this, such as extreme cases of Arthritis being cured the moment people pray for them.

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So, you never saw the tumours, but have believed that they existed. Accordingly, what you saw was nothing, but you have been told a story which you chose to believe.

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Originally Posted by skasian

I am quite unsure why not there have been medical history about this, all I know that doctor dismiss people that have been miaculously cured with no further recording. That is an interesting fact which should be investigated.

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These things have been investigated, yet not a single instance of miraculous cure has ever been recorded. That is despite 3/4 of all medical doctors in USA being christians. You'd think some of them would be quite keen to see a real miracle recoreded, wouldn't you, yet it does not happen.

I guess the thought that you're being lied to isn't a possibility?

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Originally Posted by skasian

I did hear some news in NZ about letting people die or attempting a dead person arise from the dead. I believe that is wrong because I heard that these people claimed that they were the messiah and proving other people they have the power. This is sin, and against the Will of God. The people who got cured in the church I went to were people that even the doctors couldnt help and so it was an act of asking God for His miracle and mercy to happen, not the other way around.

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You clearly missed the point with the NZ couples, because nobody claimed to be the messiah - but both couples prayed to their god instead of going to the doctor.

Did they not pary hard enough?

As to the people "cured" in your church, Benny Hinn does exactly the same thing, yet he's been labelled a charlatan by even the Southern Baptist Convention.

Don't you find it funny that the identical things are carried out by frauds?

To check the real details of the "miracle cures" I would need to see notarised statements from doctors confirming both the existence of the disease and the cure.

Isn't it odd that none of them ever do that, despite a genuine miracle being something which would actually impress the unbelievers?

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Originally Posted by skasian

Could you please elaborate? I am unfamiliar about this especially the billions of Christian that disagree about hell, as hell is in the bible, I dont see why not they do not believe in hell.

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There are over a billion Catholics in the world for starters and their official doctrine doesn't include a hell. Given the thousands of theologists in the employ of the RCC over many centuries, I think their view is considered by most to be the best interpretation of the bible, yet you dismiss it, saying that your theology is right! How long has your church been in existence? How many biblical scholars have devoted their lives to reading and translating the original Greek, Hebrew, Amhharic and Latin texts?

Here are details of the different branches of christianity.

Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican and many other sects do not believe in hell, accounting for over 80% of christians.

Maybe you should check what some other branches think.

Love, compassion, mercy and justice are exercised by us. Because such things exist does not mean God is right here with us right now, it means that as his creations, we are sharing and showing them and all of them to me, are a matter of choice ( with the exception of love )

It does not mean he is here, it just means that we are "living".

We're really not going very far with this discussion. Perhaps i should just accept that i'm going to Hell and take my leave.

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Originally Posted by limajean

Love, compassion, mercy and justice are exercised by us. Because such things exist does not mean God is right here with us right now, it means that as his creations, we are sharing and showing them and all of them to me, are a matter of choice ( with the exception of love )

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If you've read the Bible, Paul makes it clear in the NT that all good comes from God - any goodness we have comes from His presence in our heart.

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Originally Posted by limajean

It does not mean he is here, it just means that we are "living".

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In your opinion. I give you what the Bible says.

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Originally Posted by limajean

We're really not going very far with this discussion. Perhaps i should just accept that i'm going to Hell and take my leave.

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What makes you think that's your final destination? Are you really so certain that your life has finished with all its growth, all its changes? I wouldn't be so sure about that if I were you. God is in the business of changing "sinners" into "saints." It is not His desire that any perish - but His respect of our freedom to choose means that for some, He will have to allow them to choose hell instead of Him. Such a reality grieves God, but He won't take our freedom away. That's called "love" by the way.

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Originally Posted by limajean

We're really not going very far with this discussion. Perhaps i should just accept that i'm going to Hell and take my leave.

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See you there!

I always thought hell sounds just like my kind of place - full of atheists, not a christian in sight, all-night parties and loads of S & M. And Satan has such a great sense of humour.

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And the Lord said to him: Whence comest thou? And he answered and said: I have gone round about the earth, and walked through it.

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What more could you need?

Check Revelation: Satan won't be attending that party. Not sure who the host will be.

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Originally Posted by Redzeppelin

What makes you think that's your final destination? Are you really so certain that your life has finished with all its growth, all its changes? I wouldn't be so sure about that if I were you. God is in the business of changing "sinners" into "saints." It is not His desire that any perish - but His respect of our freedom to choose means that for some, He will have to allow them to choose hell instead of Him. Such a reality grieves God, but He won't take our freedom away. That's called "love" by the way.

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I am being saracastic. Christianity does not fit into my realm of beliefs. So no, i dont believe im going to hell, because i dont believe in it.

I know what love is like. That is not love.

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Originally Posted by limajean

I am being saracastic. Christianity does not fit into my realm of beliefs. So no, i dont believe im going to hell, because i dont believe in it.

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Well, you're free to believe so. Of course, simply choosing not to believe in something doesn't make it not true; that only works if the thing being denied isn't real. If you're wrong?

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Originally Posted by limajean

I know what love is like. That is not love.

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What's not love - to allow humanity the freedom of choice where to spend eternity? I don't get it - people complain that God is some sort of tyrant, but He gives us the freedom to choose our destiny - how is that not loving?

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Originally Posted by The Atheist

it's factual that not one single instance of miraculous divine cure has been recorded in the entirety of medical history.

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There is no way that any human could know what you claim. You have not read all medical records. I believe that you've never heard of any case like that, though.

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Originally Posted by The Atheist

This is quite funny - denying it because it's in the OT. Do you also deny the myths of creation, the great flood, Moses & Jonah and the thousand other lies in the OT?

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The Old Testament has different parts, a couple of which are history and law. The laws described in the Old Testament were established for the Jews that lived before Jesus. When Jesus arrived, he told everybody that the way of life in the Old Testament serves as a physical example of what God wants people to do spiritually. The laws of the OT were changed, but the history in the OT was not. That is not a contradiction, it is using the change as a storytelling device.

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Originally Posted by The Atheist

If the OT is just a Jewish book, how come the prophecies of Jesus' coming are in it?

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Because the Jews were supposed to follow Jesus when he came.

" What's not love - to allow humanity the freedom of choice where to spend eternity? I don't get it - people complain that God is some sort of tyrant, but He gives us the freedom to choose our destiny - how is that not loving? "

Being presented with option A and option B, and telling me that if i dont choose option A, i go to Hell, is not freedom.

Freedom is absolute.
And freedom should not be built on the basis of fear.

If God truly loved his creations, he would appreciate the beauty of the ability they have to choose their own paths. With, or without him.

You know, i know in my heart, that i am a good person. I have done many great things in my lifetime, and i have helped many people. I have made my mistakes, and i take responsibility for them.So why must i go to hell? because i dont believe or accept? so be it.

If God indeed does send his creatins to hell, simply because they dont accept or believe - he is not worthy of either his title, or his place in the hearts of people. And in my opinion, is no better than a murderer.

You think that accepting God simply frees you from your mistakes?
I am a good person. Perhaps someone who has done more good than many christians. But what's the difference? i dont need to accept God, to know i am a good person. And if indeed such a heaven and hell do exist, i will not simply turn around and "accept" god, to save myself from eternal damnation - that would be false, a cop out, a lie. Perhaps that makes me more of a person, and i believe it does. If you want forgiveness for your sins, your HUMAN mistakes, because that indeed, is what you are. It is not God you should turn to, but the person, the people, yourself who you have wronged. It is their forgiveness you should put energy into obtaining, because you dont get off that easily. You cant bring pain and suffering and expect to be forgiven because you "accept" jesus christ. Why should i, a person who has committed good - made yes, mistakes, but takes responsibility for them, be damned to hell? over say, a person who has done so much wrong, but simply accepts and believes? If indeed, god gave me freewill, i have exercised it, and i have exercised it well, i do not see why he would punish me for it.

You can not give a creature the ability to choose, and find their own path, and then punish them. People who exercise their free will to find their own beliefs, to live a good life, with or without jesus and god,..and whatever else may exist, should be celebrated not frowned upon.

If god is willing to send innocent people to hell because they dont believe in his existance, than he is not worthy of neither his title, or his place in the hearts of others.

Nothing is deserved, it is earned. And if a divine place, or a state of perfect existance is out there, beyond this life, than i deserve to be there.
How dare anyone tell a person who has earned their keep, their place - that they are not worthy of a state of peace, or a place of peace, because they dont believe or accept Jesus, God..or bigfoot.

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Originally Posted by dzebra

There is no way that any human could know what you claim. You have not read all medical records. I believe that you've never heard of any case like that, though.

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Yep, and I believe that medicine is a pretty honest science, by and large and if such a thing had ever been recorded, it would have been published in medical journals.

Yet, that's never happened, although maybe the Medical Journal of Outer Mongolia might try it on. Make that reputable medical journals have never reported such a case.

Quite a few claims have been made, but not once has a miracle been established. I don't think I need to know all of medical history to know that.

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Originally Posted by dzebra

That is not a contradiction, it is using the change as a storytelling device.

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Yes, quite.

The problem comes in when some of those stories are still used. For instance, if a fundie is adamant the world was created 6013 years ago and that Noah's flood carved the grand canyon in a week, he/she is adamant because the bible says so.

When it contradicts itself, it contradicts itself.

You did note that I provided a link to literally hundreds of contradictions and inconsistencies? Quite a few of them are in the NT as well.

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Originally Posted by dzebra

Because the Jews were supposed to follow Jesus when he came.

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Hmm, but they didn't did they?

Oh, that's right, they're wrong and christianity is right. Odd how they think the same thing, only vice-versa.

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Originally Posted by limajean

Nothing is deserved, it is earned. And if a divine place, or a state of perfect existance is out there, beyond this life, than i deserve to be there.
How dare anyone tell a person who has earned their keep, their place - that they are not worthy of a state of peace, or a place of peace, because they dont believe or accept Jesus, God..or bigfoot.

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See, this is what I don't get.

That fits in completely with all of Jesus' alleged parables and wisdom - except for loving his dad.

Rowan Williams, Archbishop of Canterbury, would agree with you 100%, and despite what anyone else may say, he is one of the leading theologians on the planet. More degrees than a thermometer. I'm pretty sure Herr RatZZinger's church would also agree with the broad premise of what you say.

It really is only biblical fundies who don't accept that a good life is a reason for someone to go to heaven, and all logic suggests that an intelligence capable of creating humans would indeed see it the same way. Jesus himself is alleged to have said something about "Judge not lest ye be judged", but clearly that rule doesn't apply to his old man. That's a contradiction for you.

So where is the attraction in the belief that you will go to hell, regardless of how pious or altruistic your life is, because you didn't bow down to an invisble deity? I really believe only misanthropy can create that kind of god.

And I'd turn down the opportunity to meet with the thing which makes those rules.

Oh this is classic...

god:
numbered killings: 2,391,421
estimated total killings: 33 million

satan:
number killings: 10
estimated total killings: 10

Don't believe me? you should - these results have been tallied from the Bible. And considering we all know how reliable it is - i guess we have to accept the above as rock solid truth.

Ref: http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot....an-or-god.html

Confirmed by endless sources.

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Originally Posted by limajean

Skasian every point you're making is not only flawed - but seems to be trying to stitch up the holes in what you believe to be "facts".

"Incredulous or not, I just wanted to point out that Christian hell and heaven does exist no matter what other Christians may think."

In that statement you even admit that other Christians have alternative beliefs. What makes you right? of all the billions of people in the world why should we believe you?
You speak as if from fact.
It seems to me that you're taking Hell and Heaven too literally - if such a thing does in fact exist. Perhaps Hell is only a state of mind - a "place" that is without God.
Though the world seems to be without God today - so maybe we're already there.

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If you read THe Atheist post, I was referring to his/her post. The Atheist pointed out that billions of Christians do not believe in hell, so in reference to his jargon, I stated what I believed in.
Look, what you believe in, I respect and dont take it too seriously as I believe in my own sets of values. The problem you have is, if you have your own sets of beliefs and values, why do you care what other peoples belief and values are like? If you dont believe in Jesus, you dont have to believe in our Hell or what I believe in. How can you be mad about maybe ending up in Christian Hell when clearly you are not Christian? It is up to you what you believe in but dont come to me and say I seem to have all the "facts" when it is my strong opinions about my faith. If you have strong values of Buddhism, such Christian values should not affect you. Hold on to your Buddhism faith or philosophy and dont let other religion let you down if you choose not to believe them. I am speaking out as a person, religious or not, and I want to help you stop thinking that I have all the facts but that I have a strong belief.

You spoke eloquently then Skasian.

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Originally Posted by limajean

We're really not going very far with this discussion. Perhaps i should just accept that i'm going to Hell and take my leave.

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Are you even Buddhist? If you have your belief and philosophy, then stick to it, without being hindered with other religious values. What I want to say is either believe in Christianity or dont. Therefore believe in Christian hell or dont. You cant be in the middle therefore dont let yourself down thinking you are going to hell when clearly you dont believe in Christianity. All religions must point this out: live your life to the fullest with spreading the good over the bad as much as possible.

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Originally Posted by The Atheist

So, you never saw the tumours, but have believed that they existed. Accordingly, what you saw was nothing, but you have been told a story which you chose to believe.



These things have been investigated, yet not a single instance of miraculous cure has ever been recorded. That is despite 3/4 of all medical doctors in USA being christians. You'd think some of them would be quite keen to see a real miracle recoreded, wouldn't you, yet it does not happen.

I guess the thought that you're being lied to isn't a possibility?



You clearly missed the point with the NZ couples, because nobody claimed to be the messiah - but both couples prayed to their god instead of going to the doctor.

Did they not pary hard enough?

As to the people "cured" in your church, Benny Hinn does exactly the same thing, yet he's been labelled a charlatan by even the Southern Baptist Convention.

Don't you find it funny that the identical things are carried out by frauds?

To check the real details of the "miracle cures" I would need to see notarised statements from doctors confirming both the existence of the disease and the cure.

Isn't it odd that none of them ever do that, despite a genuine miracle being something which would actually impress the unbelievers?



There are over a billion Catholics in the world for starters and their official doctrine doesn't include a hell. Given the thousands of theologists in the employ of the RCC over many centuries, I think their view is considered by most to be the best interpretation of the bible, yet you dismiss it, saying that your theology is right! How long has your church been in existence? How many biblical scholars have devoted their lives to reading and translating the original Greek, Hebrew, Amhharic and Latin texts?

Here are details of the different branches of christianity.

Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican and many other sects do not believe in hell, accounting for over 80% of christians.

Maybe you should check what some other branches think.

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It is not a story to believe. It was someone that was clearly dying from a tumor, and been declared that the doctors cannot save him. He was going to spend a couple of months waiting to die. After he got healed, we got a report back from the doctor it was just a miracle.
If it is evidence what I saw with my eyes, then I saw an old lady that was paralysed, stuck in a wheelchair for most of her life, and when she got healed by God, she starting running around praising God. Her family starting crying and praising with her. Do you think that was fake? And how could I have been lied to when I have experienced my self of see it with my own two eyes? It is actually sad that God have to provide with miracles that can be perceived with our eyes. The truth is it implies lack of faith and belief. People are thinking because they cant see with their physical eyes, God doesnt exist. What about love, we cant see it but we can feel love being poured from someone even in long distances. God is Love, our physical eyes cannot see God but by our hearts and spiritual eye, He is inexplicable for us to imagine. I have to ask you, do you think love from your friends and family may be fake just because you cant see it?

Precisely maybe that is the reason why miracles are not reported by medical doctors, as you have suspected: frauds. People of today are becoming more and more skeptic no matter what seems to be miracles they repudiate saying its fake. Maybe having a religious aspect in a scientific, medical area causes issues again like what you are suspecting now: fake and frauds. Skeptics are stubborn, and they refuse to believe in anything else then what is in reality. This echoes in some scenes in the bible, when Jesus came to earth, some people thought and rebuked he was an anti Christ and that he was fake even though mircales were happening in from of their noses. It is a sad reality and maybe this is the reason why there is limited amount of "evidence"

And please dont suggest what I said was "fake". For me it was not fake as I experienced my shoulder joints moving and clicking in correct places as I felt intensive heat while praying. I dont mind if you dont believe in what I say but dont accuse me that I am fake, just move on if you suspect falseness.

Christians that rebuke Christians like you have said about Benny Hinn is not uncommon. Christians are still human, and they may act as same as any other non believers. Some Christians believe that we should not practise anointing like Benny Hinn which scares them, as it is out of the ordinary. The same went for the church that I went to that practised this. Other churches whispered to each other and started to rebuke. That is reality of followers in churches, we are often corrupt, against Gods Will. That is why Christians must open their eyes from this and truely focus on God.

The branches you were talking about, I apologise I wasnt accounting every branch of Christianity, such as Catholic, Orthodox.. But the people that claim as Christian, not Catholic or Orthodox, do believe in Hell as in the bible there are many verses that God talked about Hell. Now why would there be now hell when God Himself talked about it?

Yes i agree with Delta, you spoke well.

My problem is, i get winded up in an argument - and end up arguing when i really dont need to.
Then again - if i hadnt been told that me personally - was going to hell, i probably would have backed off from the start.

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Originally Posted by limajean

Yes i agree with Delta, you spoke well.

My problem is, i get winded up in an argument - and end up arguing when i really dont need to.
Then again - if i hadnt been told that me personally - was going to hell, i probably would have backed off from the start.

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Ah, thank you to both of you:)

If you had taken in my belief personally and affected you as a person, I apologise, I hate it when I make someone feel bad in any kind of way. I never intended to upset or anger anyone when I was stating the belief Christianity had about hell. In a way, I didnt realise such aspect would hurt any one. This is because I thought that as all people had their fixed values, such belief such as mine wouldnt affect them. It seems I was wrong, however I still would like you to strengthen up your own belief and values no matter how contrasting others may be with yours and therefore grow more powerful as a religious or philosophical person.

No apology needed.

I got fired up.I just want you to understand that none of my posts were intended to be hurtful to you.

You're good to debate with - i guess i gave my all

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Originally Posted by limajean

No apology needed.

I got fired up.I just want you to understand that none of my posts were intended to be hurtful to you.

You're good to debate with - i guess i gave my all

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No no none of your posts were hurtful, it actually gave me an insight about the human response system. Thank you for debating, it gets the brain exercising.

But doesnt firing up induce you to give up your all into a discussion? I dont see any harm in giving all of yourself. The words you write is a representation of yourself, your personality, your belief. The better you write, the better you can represent yourself. Isnt that a good exercise?

I believe that being fired up is same as a stimuli that triggers a motivation and urge to use your communication skill to express your perspectives. Its beneficial to other people too since it gives so much insight on how people can see in so many different angles even though we are positioned in one plane or context.

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Originally Posted by The Atheist

Yet, that's never happened, although maybe the Medical Journal of Outer Mongolia might try it on. Make that reputable medical journals have never reported such a case.

Quite a few claims have been made, but not once has a miracle been established.

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I guess that could depend on one of two things:

-What makes something reputable? Wouldn't a medical journal lose reputation if it claims to not know something? Therefore it would be impossible for a reputable journal to claim miracles on a frequent basis, no matter if they were true or not. People who don't believe in miracles are common enough that a medical journal would not be reputable if it claimed a miracle.

-What constitutes a miracle? Is a normal act with perfect timing ever considered a miracle? When the odds are against survival, but then surgery goes well with none of the expected complications, is that considered a miracle? When someone needs a new liver and none are in stock, but one arrives the day before the person would die, is that considered a miracle? Sure, these things can be explained, but they are also pretty miraculous.

Oh yes of course it is, but when it gets to the point where im arguing that oranges are apples, it gets a bit ridiculous.

Also, this isnt the thread to say this, but i see youre from NZ
me too :)

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Originally Posted by limajean

Oh yes of course it is, but when it gets to the point where im arguing that oranges are apples, it gets a bit ridiculous.

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May be oranges are apples. If you account that all fruits are the same or objects that grow on trees and produce seeds are the same or objects that start with a vowel are the same.:)