The Aeneid Discussion Group

Somebody mentioned that Aeneas acts differently here. I can't remember right now, but this may mark the spot where Aeneas makes the transition from Trojan/Greek to proto-Roman. He becomes more stoic, or epicurean (again I forget which Virgil was). He stops showing so much emotion. He makes a switch from his berserker style of fighting to the cool, collected, even tempered professional man of war. He stops running from his destiny and becomes the strong masculine leader his people need him to be.

I've kind of lost place where we are. Is this the funeral games section in honor of Aeneas' father? That would signal his shift to the pater familias, the head of the family, where he is no longer subject to his father and becomes his own man. If this is the spot I remember it being, then there's a lot of character development coming. It also echoes the funeral games for Patroclus in the Iliad. Sorry to be so unspecific. I don't have my book by me.

I remember being really into the boxing section, just because I like boxing. But supposedly the part where one of the men has his blood so up at the end of a bout that he kills a steer by punching it was supposed to re-enforce that Greek berserker bloodlust mentality which we'll see Virgil moving away from later. Then there was that long section about the boat race, which is pictured in terms of a chariot race. A few years before Virgil wrote this poem, Augustus had initiated a new series of public games which he claimed had their root in ancient times and he was re-instating. That was his thing: pietas. He filled all the vacant priesthoods, restored temples and old customs. What Virgil is doing here is backing his patron up and saying "See, this is where the games come from."

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Originally Posted by Quark

Virgil's probably right about the humor of the story. I don't think there's much of a parody going on in Book V.

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I agree. I know Virgil didn't intend it, but I find humor in most things (I thought Catcher in the Rye was hilarious), but I just thought it would be great to parody.

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Originally Posted by mortalterror

Somebody mentioned that Aeneas acts differently here. I can't remember right now, but this may mark the spot where Aeneas makes the transition from Trojan/Greek to proto-Roman. He becomes more stoic, or epicurean (again I forget which Virgil was). He stops showing so much emotion. He makes a switch from his berserker style of fighting to the cool, collected, even tempered professional man of war. He stops running from his destiny and becomes the strong masculine leader his people need him to be.

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That's interesting, because I see the shift in Book Six. I stopped snickering and my Hemingway hairs stood up.

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Originally Posted by mortalterror

I've kind of lost place where we are. Is this the funeral games section in honor of Aeneas' father?

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Yes, that's the section we're in right now. Book V is everything in between Dido's death and Aeneas's descend into the underworld.

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Originally Posted by mortalterror

this may mark the spot where Aeneas makes the transition from Trojan/Greek to proto-Roman. He becomes more stoic, or epicurean (again I forget which Virgil was). He stops showing so much emotion. He makes a switch from his berserker style of fighting to the cool, collected, even tempered professional man of war. He stops running from his destiny and becomes the strong masculine leader his people need him to be.

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You're right that there is change in Aeneas in Book V, but I don't know if he becomes more stoic--or whether this change is part of progression. Like I mentioned in my last post, Aeneas almost breaks down toward the end when the ships are burned. He seemed much more stoic in Book IV when he dispassionately told off Dido. Also, further along in the story there are several instances where Aeneas becomes enraged and engages in that "berserker" style of fighting. The very last act he does in the Aeneid might fall in that category. I think you're right to notice the change in Aeneas, but I don't know if I agree that he progressing toward an ideal here. If there is a progression, it might be in the mind of the reader as he or she sees Aeneas in various situations and attitudes.

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Originally Posted by mortalterror

I remember being really into the boxing section, just because I like boxing. But supposedly the part where one of the men has his blood so up at the end of a bout that he kills a steer by punching it was supposed to re-enforce that Greek berserker bloodlust mentality which we'll see Virgil moving away from later. Then there was that long section about the boat race, which is pictured in terms of a chariot race. A few years before Virgil wrote this poem, Augustus had initiated a new series of public games which he claimed had their root in ancient times and he was re-instating. That was his thing: pietas. He filled all the vacant priesthoods, restored temples and old customs. What Virgil is doing here is backing his patron up and saying "See, this is where the games come from."

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I didn't know that, mortal. Since there is so much in the Aeneid which is suggestive--and supporting--of Virgil's Rome, the funeral games probably also have their correlatives in Augustan Rome. That's a good point, mortal.

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Originally Posted by NickAdams

I agree. I know Virgil didn't intend it, but I find humor in most things (I thought Catcher in the Rye was hilarious), but I just thought it would be great to parody.

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I'm sure a lot of the Aeneid is unintentionally funny. I find some of the battles at the end to be a little comical. They're just so over-the-top.

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Originally Posted by NickAdams

That's interesting, because I see the shift in Book Six. I stopped snickering and my Hemingway hairs stood up.

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"Hemingway" hairs? Where do those grow?

Well I finally caught up. Funny I don't notce a shift n Aeneas in Book V. He doesn't even have that large a role here.

I guess what everyone thinks of in Book V is the funeral games, and they are magnificent. I'm not sure if Nick is refering to Hemingway because of these games, but I do think Hemingway would have been proud of it. He may have even got the idea for his sporting event decriptions from here.

And while the games are inspiring and festive and heroic I can't help feel that the key to Book V is the notion of death. First of all the games are a commemoration for a funeral, the death of Anchises. And here we see the respect for the dead and especially the death of one’s father. I found this passage initiating the games particularly moving:

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With that he [Aeneas] binds his own brows with his mother’s myrtle.
So does Helymus, so does Acestes ripe in years, the boy
Ascanius too, and the other young men take his lead.
Leaving the council now with thousands in his wake,
amid his immense cortege, Aeneas gains the tomb
and here he pours libations, each in proper order.
Two bowls of unmixed wine he tips on the ground
and two of fresh milk, two more of hallowed blood,
then scatters crimson flowers with this prayer:
“Hail, my blessed father, hail again! I salute
your ashes, your spirit and your shade—my father
I rescued once, but all for nothing. Not with you
would it be my fate to search for Italy’s shores
and destined fields and, whatever it may be,
the Italian river Tiber.”
(ll 88-102)

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Virgil describes the slaughtering of sheep and swine and other animals, and we have the pseudo appearance of Anchises as a serpent, and later he personally comes as a shade. And then there is the death of Polinurus. This is carefully crafted on Virgil’s part. He starts the book with Polinurus. We see him piloting a ship, and as the weather turns rough questions father Neptune: “Why such cloudbanks wrapped around the sky?/Father Neptune, what are you whipping up for us now?” And then toward the end we see Neptune soothing Venus when she complains about the hardships of her son Aeneas. Neptune promises her smooth and uneventful seas for her son. Here are his words:

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“And now as then, my concern for him stands firm.
So cast your fears to the winds. Just as you wish,
he will arrive at Avernus’ haven safe and sound.
Only one will be lost, one you seek at sea.
One life for the lives of many men.”
(ll 904-8)

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The one who will die is Polinurus who is again piloting the ship. So Virgil crafts these book end scenes of Polinurus and Neptune surrounding the funeral games.

That final passage of Polinurus falling prey to the god of sleep and falling off the ship is fascinating. I wish I could copy the entire thing, but it’s a little long. I urge you to go back and read it. But here’s what I think is enlightening.

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By now
dank night had nearly reached her turning-point in the sky,
and stretched on the hand thwarts beneath their oars
the crews gave way to a deep, quiet rest, when down
from the stars the God of Sleep came gliding gently,
cleaving the dark mists and scattering shadows,
hunting you, Ploinurus, bringing you fatal sleep
in all your innocence.
(ll 929-36)

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So then, the “innocent” life is shed as a sacrifice for the rest of the crew, “one life for the lives of many me”. Of course it recalls the Christ story, but this is written before Christ. No wonder the people of the middle ages thought that Virgil’s work was a prefiguring of Christianity.

So why does Virgil intertwine the festive funeral games with all these allusions and narratives of death? I think it’s to show again the sacrifice of Aeneas and the Trojans to build Rome. So much pain and sacrifice has to go into the building of the state of Rome. So much heart aches. Happiness for Virgil is elusive and always tinged with sadness.

Virgil, I am a foreign invader! :lol: I was just curious, since you said you were occuppied in here tonight and could not post much on the short story thread; so stopped in to see how many posts you have all filled up, so far on this discussion of "The Aeneid"...felt to me like this discussion has been going on forever, so I peeked at page one and saw that now you are into your 5th month of posting. Just curious again - how far into this work are you and how much longer will it take to discuss? Will this be a year long project? I didn't realised the work was that long, but I am sure it is very involved, with much symbolism, etc. This is a little too 'brainy' for me. Noticed now the true scholar are left!

Quark, those book plates are really neat. Thank for posting them; I will have to check other pages to see if you posted more pictures. You always come up with interesting things to look at.

Well, just making my appearance and now my disappearance. Hi and goodbye everyone; happy posting!

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Originally Posted by Janine

Virgil, I am a foreign invader! :lol: I was just curious, since you said you were occuppied in here tonight and could not post much on the short story thread; so stopped in to see how many posts you have all filled up, so far on this discussion of "The Aeneid"...felt to me like this discussion has been going on forever, so I peeked at page one and saw that now you are into your 5th month of posting. Just curious again - how far into this work are you and how much longer will it take to discuss? Will this be a year long project? I didn't realised the work was that long, but I am sure it is very involved, with much symbolism, etc. This is a little too 'brainy' for me. Noticed now the true scholar are left!

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There are twelve books and we're on Book V. But after Book Vi it goes faster.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

There are twelve books and we're on Book V. But after Book Vi it goes faster.

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12 books? Yikes!:( I think you guys will be here for awhile yet. Have fun!:D

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Originally Posted by Janine

Virgil, I am a foreign invader! :lol: I was just curious, since you said you were occuppied in here tonight and could not post much on the short story thread; so stopped in to see how many posts you have all filled up, so far on this discussion of "The Aeneid"...felt to me like this discussion has been going on forever, so I peeked at page one and saw that now you are into your 5th month of posting. Just curious again - how far into this work are you and how much longer will it take to discuss? Will this be a year long project? I didn't realised the work was that long, but I am sure it is very involved, with much symbolism, etc. This is a little too 'brainy' for me. Noticed now the true scholar are left!

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I'm quite sure that I'm adding little, if anything, to the discussion. My first read is always a superficial one.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

Well I finally caught up. Funny I don't notce a shift n Aeneas in Book V. He doesn't even have that large a role here.

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The shift, if there is one, I think is between unyielding Aeneas in Book IV and conciliatory, sensitive Aeneas in Book V. Vergil says of the hero in the previous Book:

"No tears, no pleading, move him ; no man can yield
When a god stops his ears. As northern winds
Sweep over Alpine mountains, in their fury
Fighting each other to uproot an oak-tree
Whose ancient strength endures against their roaring
And he trunk shudders and the leaves come down
Strewing the ground, but the old tree clings to the mountain,
Its roots as deep toward hell as its crest toward heaven,
And still holds on--even so, Aeneas, shaken
By storm-blasts of appeal, by voices calling
From every side, is tossed and torn, and steady." (iv, 438-48)

I found this slightly different from the Aeneas in Book V who is overwhelmed by his problems. Vergil again:
"And now Aeneas, stunned by the bitter evil,
Was troubled at heart, uncertain, anxious, grieving:
What could be done? forget the call of the fates
And settle here in Sicily, or keep on
To the coast of Italy?" (v, 700-03)
And:
"The old man's words still troubled him; the mind
Was torn this way and that" (v, 719-20)

Aeneas is much more uncertain suddenly. Also, he concedes much more. In Book IV he doesn't give in to any of Dido's wishes even as she demands less and less. Here, in Book V, he's generously handing out awards and letting the unruly members of his crew stay in Sicily. Maybe these changes in Aeneas are caused by the Gods telling him to do different things, but for whatever reason I think he does appear differently in Book V.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

I'm not sure if Nick is refering to Hemingway because of these games, but I do think Hemingway would have been proud of it.

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Oh, that makes sense. I didn't get it at first.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

I can't help feel that the key to Book V is the notion of death.

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There are a few deaths in Book V, but they're kind of the book ends and not really at the center of the action. Anchises dies, but they throw him in a tomb and then get on with it. Polinurus drowns, but that's more of a lead-in for Book VI. There's death at the beginning as they watch Dido's funeral pyre and bury Anchises, and there's death at the end with Polinurus. I suppose you could say that frames the action in Book V, but the action itself is more about life. It's about nationalities with Acestes and Aeneas, and it's about the wrangling of the Gods with Venus and Juno. There's quite a lot of life at the center of the Book.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

So why does Virgil intertwine the festive funeral games with all these allusions and narratives of death? I think it’s to show again the sacrifice of Aeneas and the Trojans to build Rome.

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Their deaths do show the pain and suffering that went into building Rome. Where do you find allusions to death in the funeral games, though?

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Originally Posted by Janine

I peeked at page one and saw that now you are into your 5th month of posting. Just curious again - how far into this work are you and how much longer will it take to discuss? Will this be a year long project?

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Has it been five months already? I guess it has been pretty slow work. Maybe it's because we don't have that glorious leader you always say these threads need.

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Originally Posted by Janine

This is a little too 'brainy' for me. Noticed now the true scholar are left!

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Wait, I don't follow.

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Originally Posted by Janine

Quark, those book plates are really neat. Thank for posting them; I will have to check other pages to see if you posted more pictures. You always come up with interesting things to look at.

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Those took me forever to find, actually. I had seen them before, but I couldn't find them on the web anywhere. The ones I eventually found were a little small unfortunately.

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Originally Posted by NickAdams

I'm quite sure that I'm adding little, if anything, to the discussion. My first read is always a superficial one.

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Well you don't need to post a nine-hundred word, well-researched essay to add to the conversation. Sometimes just asking a good question or saying the first thing that comes into your head really helps. You've added a number of things, Nick. Don't say you haven't.

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Originally Posted by Quark

The shift, if there is one, I think is between unyielding Aeneas in Book IV and conciliatory, sensitive Aeneas in Book V. Vergil says of the hero in the previous Book:

"No tears, no pleading, move him ; no man can yield
When a god stops his ears. As northern winds
Sweep over Alpine mountains, in their fury
Fighting each other to uproot an oak-tree
Whose ancient strength endures against their roaring
And he trunk shudders and the leaves come down
Strewing the ground, but the old tree clings to the mountain,
Its roots as deep toward hell as its crest toward heaven,
And still holds on--even so, Aeneas, shaken
By storm-blasts of appeal, by voices calling
From every side, is tossed and torn, and steady." (iv, 438-48)

I found this slightly different from the Aeneas in Book V who is overwhelmed by his problems. Vergil again:
"And now Aeneas, stunned by the bitter evil,
Was troubled at heart, uncertain, anxious, grieving:
What could be done? forget the call of the fates
And settle here in Sicily, or keep on
To the coast of Italy?" (v, 700-03)
And:
"The old man's words still troubled him; the mind
Was torn this way and that" (v, 719-20)

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That just strikes me as a different reaction to different circumstances. The claim that was made that this is the place where Aeneas transitioned from a Trojan to a Roman. I see no evidence for that. Would a Roman be characterized as more sensitive or conciliatory? :lol: Frankly if such a transition occurs I would think it would be after coming out of the underworld in Book VI. But we'll get to that.

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Aeneas is much more uncertain suddenly. Also, he concedes much more. In Book IV he doesn't give in to any of Dido's wishes even as she demands less and less. Here, in Book V, he's generously handing out awards and letting the unruly members of his crew stay in Sicily. Maybe these changes in Aeneas are caused by the Gods telling him to do different things, but for whatever reason I think he does appear differently in Book V.

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Again I think it's just different circumstances.

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There are a few deaths in Book V, but they're kind of the book ends and not really at the center of the action. Anchises dies, but they throw him in a tomb and then get on with it. Polinurus drowns, but that's more of a lead-in for Book VI. There's death at the beginning as they watch Dido's funeral pyre and bury Anchises, and there's death at the end with Polinurus. I suppose you could say that frames the action in Book V, but the action itself is more about life. It's about nationalities with Acestes and Aeneas, and it's about the wrangling of the Gods with Venus and Juno. There's quite a lot of life at the center of the Book.

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This is true, but the contrast is striking. Virgil is layering the thorns of life with the roses. I still think the undercurrent of death gives this chapter a three dimensionality. If it was just funeral games, I think it would not be all that interesting. The death allusions suggest a complex view of life.

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Their deaths do show the pain and suffering that went into building Rome. Where do you find allusions to death in the funeral games, though?

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Well, not so much within the games, but that the games are a celebration of someone who has died.

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Has it been five months already? I guess it has been pretty slow work. Maybe it's because we don't have that glorious leader you always say these threads need.

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My fault. I have failed in my role of leadership here. :blush:

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Originally Posted by Virgil

That just strikes me as a different reaction to different circumstances. The claim that was made that this is the place where Aeneas transitioned from a Trojan to a Roman. I see no evidence for that. Would a Roman be characterized as more sensitive or conciliatory? :lol: Frankly if such a transition occurs I would think it would be after coming out of the underworld in Book VI. But we'll get to that.

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Mortal brought up the idea of Aeneas moving from Trojan to Roman, but I think he was just making a general statement about Aeneas over the entire poem and not just Book V.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

Again I think it's just different circumstances.

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It's angry women in Book V demanding things from Aeneas and an angry woman in Book IV demanding things from Aeneas. I suppose the Gods are telling him to act differently, but that doesn't really say anything about Aeneas's character.

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Originally Posted by Virgil

This is true, but the contrast is striking. Virgil is layering the thorns of life with the roses. I still think the undercurrent of death gives this chapter a three dimensionality. If it was just funeral games, I think it would not be all that interesting. The death allusions suggest a complex view of life.

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Are there allusions to death outside the actual deaths and funerals at the ends of the section?

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Originally Posted by Virgil

My fault. I have failed in my role of leadership here. :blush:

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Sorry, I didn't mean to take a jab at you. I was just having fun with Janine's idea of thread leadership.

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Originally Posted by Quark

Has it been five months already? I guess it has been pretty slow work. Maybe it's because we don't have that glorious leader you always say these threads need.

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Well, I'm glad you all have been going slow. I haven't had much time lately to participate here, and I probably won't for a while, so I just hope there will still be some discussion going on when I get a chance to jump back in!

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Originally Posted by bluevictim

Well, I'm glad you all have been going slow. I haven't had much time lately to participate here, and I probably won't for a while, so I just hope there will still be some discussion going on when I get a chance to jump back in!

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You're in luck. We're moving through the Aeneid at a pace of about one Book per month. At that rate we'll finish in '09. Hopefully, though, things will start picking up here.

Glad to see you guys faithfully keeping this discussion going. I've been overwhelmingly busy of late but found a scrap of time this evening to think a little about Aeneid five.

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Originally Posted by Quark

Their deaths do show the pain and suffering that went into building Rome. Where do you find allusions to death in the funeral games, though?

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Well they are funeral games...sorry, couldn't help myself.:p Seriously, though, I think you both are equally right about the mixture of life and death in this book. The games are indeed a break, and a celebration of the health and vitality of the participants. Just as the funeral games for Patroclos in the Iliad act as welcome respite from the relentless account of battle, so these games function as a break from the struggle of the search for Rome. So I agree with Quark when he says, "there's quite a lot of life at the center of the Book. "

At the same time I also agree with Virg. about the importance of death in this book. Not only, as everyone's already said, does death frame the book (with Dido's funeral pyre and the burial of Anchises at the start and the amazing description of the death of Polinurus at the end), but both the games and the incident with the women are fundamentally reactions to death. Funeral games, both here and in the Iliad, do indeed function as a celebration of life, but it is a celebration of life consciously in reaction to and in tension with death. Part of what makes the games in both the Iliad and the Aeneid profoundly important is that they function as a simultaneous reminder of death and an insistence on the continuation of life coming out of that death. After the traumatic accounts of massive death and the destruction of Troy and the dramatic death of Dido in the early books, these middle books, five and six, are about coming to terms with the losses of the past and moving forward. Book five is concerned with different modes of public mourning. The death of Aeneas' father is recognized and mourned in the funeral games, which at the same time serve to connect the participants to present pleasures. The lamenting and then frantic women who threaten to burn the ships are a different kind of public mourning. They are set up in direct opposition to the controlled and decorous reaction to the remembrance of death in the funeral games. In book five Aeneas is figuring out how to react to the losses of the past and move forward into the future within the public sphere. He needs to recognize who in the group are strong, lively warriors ready to react to their losses by engaging heartily in the games--as they will need to later in battle--as opposed to those who, like the women, can't take it any more and are too scarred by past losses and afraid of future losses to take part in the sacrifices ahead in the founding of Rome.

Just as book five focuses on the recognition of the losses of the past and the transition to the life of the present and the enterprises of the future in the public sphere, so book six focuses on the recognition of past loss as a means of moving forward on a more personal/familial level...but since not everyone has read this before I won't spoil anything by moving into the fantastic book six just yet.

Good post Petrarch. And I'm loving Book VI. :D I think it's the best one.

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And I'm loving Book VI. I think it's the best one.

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Me too. :)

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Originally Posted by Petrarch's Love

Glad to see you guys faithfully keeping this discussion going. I've been overwhelmingly busy of late but found a scrap of time this evening to think a little about Aeneid five.

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Thanks for posting Petrarch. It's been difficult for any of us to find time for the thread. There's interest in the topic, but all of us have been too overtaxed to participate much. Virgil blogs and writes an obscene number of posts in other threads, Nick is reading the Aeneid for the first time, and I've been busy trying to get the little circle of Chekhov readers here to understand ambiguity and irony. Unfortunately, none of us has time to lead the discussion or even post regularly. I do hope we can get through Book VI (everyone's favorite), though.

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Originally Posted by Petrarch's Love

Well they are funeral games...sorry, couldn't help myself.:p

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Yes, but I think we're letting our imagination run away with us when we say that the games must be "about" death because they were prompted by someone passing away. I think you have to trust your own impression of the action rather than merely interpolate from the book ends and the title what the games represent.

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Originally Posted by Petrarch's Love

At the same time I also agree with Virg. about the importance of death in this book. Not only, as everyone's already said, does death frame the book (with Dido's funeral pyre and the burial of Anchises at the start and the amazing description of the death of Polinurus at the end)

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Okay, this is a giant paragraph, so I'm going to break it into parts and then respond.

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Originally Posted by Petrarch's Love

but both the games and the incident with the women are fundamentally reactions to death. Funeral games, both here and in the Iliad, do indeed function as a celebration of life, but it is a celebration of life consciously in reaction to and in tension with death. Part of what makes the games in both the Iliad and the Aeneid profoundly important is that they function as a simultaneous reminder of death and an insistence on the continuation of life coming out of that death.

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This is the part that throws me. I don't think the women are responding to death. It seems more like they are tired of sailing, rather than afraid they might die. Iris's argument depends on the Trojans being discontented about their nomadic life, not being terrified of death. She even claims to prefer death above this voyage. Her angry speech goes like this:

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"Alas!" said one, "what oceans yet remain
For us to sail! what labors to sustain!"
All take the word, and, with a gen'ral groan,
Implore the gods for peace, and places of their own.
The goddess, great in mischief, views their pains,
And in a woman's form her heav'nly limbs restrains.
In face and shape old Beroe she became,
Doryclus' wife, a venerable dame,
Once blest with riches, and a mother's name.
Thus chang'd, amidst the crying crowd she ran,
Mix'd with the matrons, and these words began:
"O wretched we, whom not the Grecian pow'r,
Nor flames, destroy'd, in Troy's unhappy hour!
O wretched we, reserv'd by cruel fate,
Beyond the ruins of the sinking state!
Now sev'n revolving years are wholly run,
Since this improsp'rous voyage we begun;
Since, toss'd from shores to shores, from lands to lands,
Inhospitable rocks and barren sands,
Wand'ring in exile thro' the stormy sea,
We search in vain for flying Italy.
Now cast by fortune on this kindred land,
What should our rest and rising walls withstand,
Or hinder here to fix our banish'd band?
O country lost, and gods redeem'd in vain,
If still in endless exile we remain!
Shall we no more the Trojan walls renew,
Or streams of some dissembled Simois view!
Haste, join with me, th' unhappy fleet consume!
Cassandra bids; and I declare her doom.
In sleep I saw her; she supplied my hands
(For this I more than dreamt) with flaming brands:
'With these,' said she, 'these wand'ring ships destroy:
These are your fatal seats, and this your Troy.'
Time calls you now; the precious hour employ:
Slack not the good presage, while Heav'n inspires
Our minds to dare, and gives the ready fires.
See! Neptune's altars minister their brands:
The god is pleas'd; the god supplies our hands."

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Iris is playing off the Trojan yearning for a homeland and comfort. There isn't any tension with death here. It's a desire for life--a good life. To make the point even more clear, a woman emerges from the crowd to tell everyone that the real Beroe has cloistered herself in her hut to grieve. The actual grieving over death is taking place off-stage! Far from focusing on death, Vergil is removing it to an unseen hut. This is important for the structure of the Book and the Aeneid in general. Book V is the reprieve from suffering--and, yes, even death. Trojans die in every location except Sicily. They're welcomed by a friendly king who doesn't arouse passion in Aeneas. The games are a jovial wrangling for place. Euryalus and Sinus show friendship. There's an eroticized description of boys. Romans and Sicilians have a good natured contest. The gods continue their struggle. All of these are celebrations of life; and, despite the reason for the games, I don't see how the action shows tension with death. It is framed by death; however, and that is important to the structure. I'll explain in the next paragraph.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Petrarch's Love

After the traumatic accounts of massive death and the destruction of Troy and the dramatic death of Dido in the early books, these middle books, five and six, are about coming to terms with the losses of the past and moving forward. Book five is concerned with different modes of public mourning. The death of Aeneas' father is recognized and mourned in the funeral games, which at the same time serve to connect the participants to present pleasures.

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This is a good observation. Books V and VI are linked by the idea of loss and suffering. The other part I disagree with you is in your characterization of Book V. As I've argued before Book V isn't part of the mourning. It's the escape from it. That's why the action of Book V is contrasted by death and a horrible sea voyage at the ends. Book VI is linked with it because this is the part where Aeneas has to move on. Sicily wasn't the final rest from pain and suffering that was promised to him. Aeneas needs to find the courage to continue which toward the end of Book VI he lacks. He admits that he'd rather forget and live in the paradise of Elysium than help the Trojans reach Italy. It takes Anchises to rally his spirits and convince him that it's worth the struggle. This is the progress of Book V and VI. It isn't about the Trojans properly mourning. It's about Aeneas deciding that the founding of the Roman empire is just that important. Book V acts as the alternative choice for Aeneas; and, for the reader, it works as a brief reprieve from the intensity of the other Books.

I hope I didn't go on to long, but this is key for understanding Book VI.

Hi Quark--I think we're actually agreeing about this more than it might appear.

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Book V is the reprieve from suffering--and, yes, even death. Trojans die in every location except Sicily. They're welcomed by a friendly king who doesn't arouse passion in Aeneas. The games are a jovial wrangling for place. Euryalus and Sinus show friendship. There's an eroticized description of boys. Romans and Sicilians have a good natured contest. The gods continue their struggle. All of these are celebrations of life; and, despite the reason for the games, I don't see how the action shows tension with death.

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Absolutely, I agree with you that this book is not about death in the sense of directly engaging with death in the action of its scenes or in the sense of being full of mourning. I think you're completely right to bring out how much celebration of life is going on in this book, and certainly you're spot on in saying that the pith of the book is about sorting out the importance of founding Rome. The specifics of the scenes of the games are indeed entirely light hearted, and taken out of context could easily be read as an untroubled account of sport in a peaceful kingdom. What I'm trying to point out is that within the structure and the context of the work as a whole, the inclusion of this book functions as a quiet period when everyone finally has the time to take a breath and begin a transition from the remembrance of loss and hardship (and perhaps "loss and hardship" are better terms than the more narrowing term "death" to describe what I feel is being reacted to in these scenes). Perhaps our fundamental difference lies here:

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As I've argued before Book V isn't part of the mourning. It's the escape from it. That's why the action of Book V is contrasted by death and a horrible sea voyage at the ends.

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You're right that book five is not mourning in the sense of initial lamentations and beating of the breasts, and that there is a sense of moving on in this book. I think where we differ is that I see this as not an escape from mourning, but a later part of the mourning process. We often think of mourning in terms of being the initial dramatic reaction to fresh grief, but a great loss is actually mourned for a long time, and mourned in a different way a year or more later than it is at the time. Up until book five everyone's been so busy actually experiencing loss and fighting for survival that they haven't had time to fully recognize their grief. Though I am frequently annoyed by the overuse of the term "closure" in the modern psychology of grieving, I think that perhaps closure comes closest to what I am getting at in my remarks. In book five the people have the time to recognize and honor the loss of Aeneas' father in the form of the games, which are in turn a way of bringing to a close the very grief they recognize. There's a similar dynamic, though expressed in a very different way, in the outburst of the women. They finally have a moment of peace and it becomes the occasion for an outburst of the rage and anguish that has built up beginning with the losses at Troy and continuing with all the dramatic events and losses throughout their journey since. They aren't dealing with all that's happened as well as the participants in the games. They're sick and tired of constant loss, and the emotions finally seeth to the forefront before they can move out of this anger into a settlement for the future.

Note that I'm not necessarily arguing that this has to be a primary reading of the book. Certainly one could easily just read this as an interlude of games and the women getting fed up with their nomadic life. On a more subtle secondary level, however I think that this interlude does very powerfully emerge from the context of the loss that comes before it and acts not so much as an escape as a direct transition from remembering what has been suffered to embracing what is and what is to come.

Yesterday the website must have been down because I couldn't get the page to load. Did anyone else have that problem? Looking over some of the threads I see some people posted last night, so it must have been working for them. Maybe it was just selectively down for a few people.

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Originally Posted by Petrarch's Love

Hi Quark--I think we're actually agreeing about this more than it might appear.

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Yes, I think I misunderstood your last post. Annoyingly, though, I still don't agree enough to write a short post.

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Originally Posted by Petrarch's Love

Absolutely, I agree with you that this book is not about death in the sense of directly engaging with death in the action of its scenes or in the sense of being full of mourning. I think you're completely right to bring out how much celebration of life is going on in this book, and certainly you're spot on in saying that the pith of the book is about sorting out the importance of founding Rome.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Petrarch's Love

You're right that book five is not mourning in the sense of initial lamentations and beating of the breasts, and that there is a sense of moving on in this book.

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Oh, good, I'm glad we agree on the action and the mood of Book V. At first I didn't understand what you meant by "tension." I thought you were suggesting that Vergil was casting a gloom over the games--which you have to admit would be odd interpretation. This is the most upbeat Book in the entire epic. The word Vergil uses almost obsessively throughout this section is laetus, or "joyous." I was starting to wonder which Aeneid you and Virgil were reading. Now I understand better what you meant by "tension" and mourning.

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Originally Posted by Petrarch's Love

I think where we differ is that I see this as not an escape from mourning, but a later part of the mourning process.

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No, I agree with this too. I even liked your distinction between Book V and Books VI as different forms of grieving. Aeneas does connect the ritualized joy of the games to the death of his father, and the deaths at the ends of the story do have an effect on our understanding of the action. I just think that these tenuous connections to death are lost in the drama of celebration and revolt. We have to keep remembering that, yes, the games are in memory of Anchises, and, yes, the women are in this position because of death. Even the impassive reader with a penchant for cause and effect has to be swept along by the action in Book V. Vergil, himself, seems to as well. He avoids bringing up death in situations where the connection would be quite easy to make. Iris's speech is one example, but there are many more. The connection is there, so I agree that the Book is partly concerned with death. But, we should realize that it isn't primarily a contemplation of death. That would get in the way with the progression that begins in Book V and ends in Book VI.

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Originally Posted by Petrarch's Love

Note that I'm not necessarily arguing that this has to be a primary reading of the book.

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I guess I agreed more than I thought. Maybe I could have written a short post.

Anyway, we're close to Book VI now. I want to post something about the Gods in this part before we move on, but besides that I don't have much to add. I don't know if Petrarch wants to comment on the other argument Virgil and I were having about Aeneas. I could wait for that. Hopefully I'm not going too slow for everyone, though. I've been shuffling my feet while I wait for people to join the conversation, but I don't want to bore those of us already here.

I'm glad we've agreed to agree, Quark. Book V: Happy times delicately laced with a latent subtext of death. :D

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Yesterday the website must have been down because I couldn't get the page to load. Did anyone else have that problem? Looking over some of the threads I see some people posted last night, so it must have been working for them. Maybe it was just selectively down for a few people.

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The site was down for me too. Must have been some sort of technical snafu.

Quote:

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Anyway, we're close to Book VI now. I want to post something about the Gods in this part before we move on, but besides that I don't have much to add. I don't know if Petrarch wants to comment on the other argument Virgil and I were having about Aeneas. I could wait for that. Hopefully I'm not going too slow for everyone, though. I've been shuffling my feet while I wait for people to join the conversation, but I don't want to bore those of us already here.

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Given the stack of student papers I'll be getting within the next hour or so combined with the amount of work I still need to get done on my proposal over the next couple of weeks, I'll probably not be participating for at least the next few days, so certainly don't hold things up on my account. I'll be interested to pop in and see how the discussion on book VI is shaping up, though, and it seems unlikely that I could let that book pass without some sort of comment. :)

I'm on book VII now. I'm very cruious to see how things proceed after what happened in the underworld.

Before we move on to Book VI, I thought I should bring up the death of Palinurus. Here's the Dryden translation (probably not the best, but it's the easiest to find online):

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Dire dreams to thee, and iron sleep, he bears;
And, lighting on thy prow, the form of Phorbas wears.
Then thus the traitor god began his tale:
"The winds, my friend, inspire a pleasing gale;
The ships, without thy care, securely sail.
Now steal an hour of sweet repose; and I
Will take the rudder and thy room supply."
To whom the yawning pilot, half asleep:
"Me dost thou bid to trust the treach'rous deep,
The harlot smiles of her dissembling face,
And to her faith commit the Trojan race?
Shall I believe the Siren South again,
And, oft betray'd, not know the monster main?"
He said: his fasten'd hands the rudder keep,
And, fix'd on heav'n, his eyes repel invading sleep.
The god was wroth, and at his temples threw
A branch in Lethe dipp'd, and drunk with Stygian dew:
The pilot, vanquish'd by the pow'r divine,
Soon clos'd his swimming eyes, and lay supine.
Scarce were his limbs extended at their length,
The god, insulting with superior strength,
Fell heavy on him, plung'd him in the sea,
And, with the stern, the rudder tore away.
Headlong he fell, and, struggling in the main,
Cried out for helping hands, but cried in vain.
The victor daemon mounts obscure in air,
While the ship sails without the pilot's care.
On Neptune's faith the floating fleet relies;
But what the man forsook, the god supplies,
And o'er the dang'rous deep secure the navy flies;
Glides by the Sirens' cliffs, a shelfy coast,
Long infamous for ships and sailors lost,
And white with bones. Th' impetuous ocean roars,
And rocks rebellow from the sounding shores.
The watchful hero felt the knocks, and found
The tossing vessel sail'd on shoaly ground.
Sure of his pilot's loss, he takes himself
The helm, and steers aloof, and shuns the shelf.
Inly he griev'd, and, groaning from the breast,
Deplor'd his death; and thus his pain express'd:
"For faith repos'd on seas, and on the flatt'ring sky,
Thy naked corpse is doom'd on shores unknown to lie.

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Besides just being a very poetic passage, I think it shows the Gods taking over the leadership from human control. In the middle of Book V Aeneas makes all the important decisions, but toward the end there's a shift back toward divine leadership. In the archery contest, for example, the Gods decide to ignite Acestes arrow and make him the victor even though the contest had already been won. It seems like they're wresting the judging of the games out Aeneas control. Likewise, by killing Palinurus Neptune is taking control of the ships from the Trojans.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Petrarch's Love

Given the stack of student papers I'll be getting within the next hour or so combined with the amount of work I still need to get done on my proposal over the next couple of weeks, I'll probably not be participating for at least the next few days, so certainly don't hold things up on my account.

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You still have papers to grade in June? Tough break. I'm sure the proposal will go well, though.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NickAdams

I'm on book VII now. I'm very cruious to see how things proceed after what happened in the underworld.

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Well, Anchises and the Sybil kind of give it away.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Quark

Well, Anchises and the Sybil kind of give it away.

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I mean in regards to his departure through the false.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NickAdams

I mean in regards to his departure through the false.

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Their exit through the portal of false dreams has baffled many readers. No one is entirely sure what Vergil meant by it. Some believe this means that everything Aeneas experienced in the underworld or after it is a false dream. To me, this seems a little far-fetched. I think they exit through the false because they are not actually dead.

It seems like we're ready to move on. I guess that means I should introduce the next Book.

Book VI
http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...llerturner.jpg
Detail from Turner's Aeneas and the Sybil (1798)

I was surprised to find that there's actually a dearth of good paintings of Hades. One would think that it would be a much painted locale, but it turns out that there are few good depictions of Book VI. Brueghel's is perhaps the best for its wide view and dark colors, but it portrays the suffering in the underworld much differently than in the Aeneid. I decided to go with some more accurate paintings of Book VI, but I think they misrepresent the tone of this part of the Aeneid. If you speculated from the two images I posted, you would probably think this section must be scenic and cheery. Really, though, it's quite gloomy. The Book starts with Aeneas arriving at Cumae and inquiring of the Sybil direction to the underworld. The seer explains a few tasks that Aeneas has to accomplish to gain entrance, and Aeneas (with divine help) finishes them all. Then, he descends into the home of the dead where he meets with former friends and acquaintances. After much sorrow, he finds his father. Anchises explains the grand plan that Aeneas must realize, and the son leaves through the ivory portal to go found Rome.

Now that the introduction is out of the way, let's start the discussion of Book VI.

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/k...allerimage.jpg
Low resolution image of The Vision of Aeneas in the Elysian Fields by Sebastiano Conca (1740)

Ugh, I was hoping I wouldn't have to start the discussion. It not that I don't like Book VI. No, it may be my favorite Book. I've just read it so many times that even I'm beginning to grow tired with what I have to say about it. I am curious to know what other people gather from it, though. To get things going, I'll post what I tell everyone about Book VI.

The sixth Book breaks into three dramatic parts: Aeneas relinquishing control to the Gods, Aeneas witnessing the suffering of Hades, and then finally Aeneas gaining resolve in Elysium. The first part begins when Aeneas begins the tasks allotted to him by the Sibyl. He isn't able to accomplish any of these by himself and only faith will allow him pass into the underworld. Initially, the Sibyl demands that he pray. Then, the Sibyl tells him he must find the Golden Bough, but he's told that only a divinely chosen person will be able to take it. Aeneas can't even find the tree without the guides sent by Venus. After he gets the metallic branch, he must perform funeral rites for the Gods. Each of these three tasks force Aeneas to trust in the heavenly will and not his own.

Below, he's confronted with the shades of characters who represent the suffering in Aeneas's life. He meets Palinurus, Dido, and Deiphobus. Each character portrays part of Aeneas's pain since the downfall of Troy. Palinurus, the most recently deceased, represents the difficult voyage the Trojans have had to make. Dido is love that Aeneas has had to forgo. Deiphobus reminds Aeneas of the fall of Troy, and the fact that he couldn't fight to save it. Together these characters push Aeneas to the brink of despair.

Later the dispirited Aeneas finds his father in Elysium. Anchises rallies Aeneas by explaining to him the glory of Rome. This completes the movement from devotion through despair to firm resolve. Aeneas emerges from the underworld a strong stoic leader. Also, this process quiets any reservations the reader may have about Aeneas's character. By having him go through this process Vergil justifies--and even glorifies--his hero.

The personal progression of Aeneas, however, is not the only going on in Book VI. In fact, it's probably not even the most interesting. More entertaining--at least for me--has always been poetry behind the mood and emotion of this section. The mystery and wonder of the underworld, the pathos in his conversations with friends, and the hope at the end probably captivate the reader as much as what's happening to Aeneas. I'll talk about this more and post some chunks of Book VI in my next post.

Thanks Quark. Let's spend some time reviewing Book VI, since it is so central to the epic. Let's look at various elements of it. First, I wanted to understand the remarkable character of the Sybil of Cumae. Here's something from Wkipedia:

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The word sibyl comes (via Latin) from the ancient Greek word sibylla, meaning prophetess. There were eventually many Sibyls in the ancient world,[1] but because of the importance of the Cumaean Sibyl in the legends of early Rome codified in Virgil's Aeneid VI, she became the most famous among Romans, supplanting the Erythraean Sibyl famed among Greeks: in Latin she was often simply referred to as The Sibyl.

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So The word sibyl comes (via Latin) from the ancient Greek word sibylla, meaning prophetess. There were eventually many Sibyls in the ancient world,[1] but because of the importance of the Cumaean Sibyl in the legends of early Rome codified in Virgil's Aeneid VI, she became the most famous among Romans, supplanting the Erythraean Sibyl famed among Greeks: in Latin she was often simply referred to as The Sibyl.

irgil did not invent the term and she is not the only sybil. Apparently the legends of Rome already had sybils. I had not known that.

Apparently certain prophesies by Sybils were codified in Roman history:

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The story of the acquisition of the Sibylline Books by Lucius Tarquinius Superbus, the semi-legendary last king of the Roman Kingdom, or Tarquinius Priscus, is one of the famous mythic elements of Roman history.[3]

Centuries ago, concurrent with the 50th Olympiad and the Founding of the City of Rome, an old woman "who was not a native of the country" (Dionysius) arrived incognita in Rome. She offered nine books of prophecies to King Tarquin; and as the king declined to purchase them, owing to the exorbitant price she demanded, she burned three and offered the remaining six to Tarquin at the same stiff price, which he again refused, whereupon she burned three more and repeated her offer. Tarquin then relented and purchased the last three at the full original price, whereupon she "disappeared from among men" (Dionysius).

The books were thereafter kept in the Temple of Jupiter on the Capitoline Hill, Rome, to be consulted only in emergencies. The temple burned down in the 80s BC, and the books with it, necessitating a re-collection of Sibylline prophecies from all parts of the empire (Tacitus 6.12). These were carefully sorted and those determined to be legitimate were saved in the rebuilt temple. The Emperor Augustus had them moved to the Temple of Apollo on the Palatine Hill, where they remained for most of the remaining Imperial Period.

The Books were burned in AD 405 by the General Flavius Stilicho, who was a Christian and regarded the books as Pagan and therefore "evil". At the time of the Visigothic invasion five years later in AD 410, certain Pagan apologists bemoaned the loss of the books, claiming that the invasion of the city was evidence of the wrath of the Pagan gods over the destruction of the books.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumaean_Sibyl

WHat's interesting is that the cave where the Sybil of Cumae lives is in the sacred grove of the goddess Diana. Diana is a goddess of female power, the goddess of the moon, the sister of Apollo. There is a world of female power associated here.

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Now carved out of the rockly flanks of Cumae
lies an enormous cavern pierced by a hundred tunnels,
a hundred mouths with as many voices rushng out,
the Sybl's rant replies. They have just gained
the sacred sill when the virgin cries aloud:
"Now is the time to ask your fate to speak!
The god, look, the god!"
So she cries before
the entrance--suddenly all her features, all
her color changes, her braided hair flies loose
and her breast heaves, her heart bursts with frenzy,
she seems to rise in height, the ring of her voice no longer
human--the breath, the pwer of god comes closer, closer.
"Why so slow Trojan Aeneas? she shouts, "so slow
to pray, to swear your vows? Not until you do
will the great jaws of our spellbound house gape wide."
And with that command the prophetess fell silent.
(ll 52-67)

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Two observations here: 1) No matter how devut pius Aeneas actually is, he is still criticized for being too slow to pray to the gods. 2) The image being emphasized in association with the Sybil are openings, caverns, tunnels, cave, mouths, things that open, "gape wide". Please forgive me for this, it's a little embarressing but I think it's implied in the text, it reminds me of female genitalia. Here's a picture of the actual cave entrance the sybil is supposed to have lived:
http://www.vergil.clarku.edu/sybil.jpg

The other association to the sybil is her voice. It is her voice through which she formulates the prophesies.

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But the Sybil, still not broken in by Apollo, storms
with a wild fury through her cave. And the more she tries
to pitch the great god off her breast, the more his bridle
exhuasts her raving lips, overwhelming her untamed heart,
bending her to his will. Now the hundred immense
mouths of the house swing open, all on their own,
and bear the Sybil's answers through the air:
You who have braved the terrors of the sea,
... a city built by Greeks!"
(ll93-116)

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Her voice is a direct contact with the gods. I find this an incredible creation on Virgil's part, undoubtly taken from Roman folklore from which we don't probaly have the full context.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Virgil

I wanted to understand the remarkable character of the Sybil of Cumae. Here's something from Wkipedia:

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Interesting. I didn't know the Romans had systematized prophesy so thoroughly. Book VI certainly must not have seemed like a stretch for any, then, contemporary readers. Or, maybe there were a few sticklers saying things like "The Sibyl is supposed to have nine books! Not four! Outrage!"

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Virgil

WHat's interesting is that the cave where the Sybil of Cumae lives is in the sacred grove of the goddess Diana. Diana is a goddess of female power, the goddess of the moon, the sister of Apollo. There is a world of female power associated here.

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I hadn't thought about the cave showing feminine power. Diana is the goddess of sorcery, so that's why I thought it would be a natural choice for Vergil. He seems to be trying to make the underworld appear mysterious and magical. Who better for a architect of the underworld than Diana, then?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Virgil

Please forgive me for this, it's a little embarressing but I think it's implied in the text, it reminds me of female genitalia. Here's a picture of the actual cave entrance the sybil is supposed to have lived:

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That is a sexy cave. I'm surprised you didn't have blur the entrance. It may be a stretch, though, to interpret this sexually. I understand that we have a woman with her hair coming undone and her clothes flying off--my favorite part. And, I also know that she standing by some orifice-like holes. Yet, for all this, it seems like there's no other way Vergil could do it. The clothes flying off seems more aimed to show the tempestuous force of the Sibyl, and the passageways have to be holes. I'll go back and look some more at the beginning of Book VI to see if I can find anything suggestive, but I'm not sure I will. We'll have to wait and see what other readers come away with.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Virgil

Her voice is a direct contact with the gods. I find this an incredible creation on Virgil's part, undoubtly taken from Roman folklore from which we don't probaly have the full context.

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Yeah, I don't know how much of the Sibyl Vergil imagines and how much was already assumed. She is a commanding character.

I'll be reading The Aenead in January 2009. Anyone still reading it? LOL

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Originally Posted by nessgavin

I'll be reading The Aenead in January 2009. Anyone still reading it? LOL

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I never did finish the second half. I will join you in a discussion if you wish. Just go ahead and post comments as you read. :)

Thanks Virgil.
I'm into book 2 of Dryden's translation. I'm finding very beautiful and moving.
I'm struck by the sense of predestination, fate, etc. Different from the Iliad and the Odyssey. The Iliad had more than the Odyssey but much of it seemed to be the gods playing with mortals. The Odyssey seemed to give a lot of responibility to the mortals. From the opening when the gods laugh and say that the mortals just blame them for their troubles when in fact they make their own hardships. But the Aeneid is very fatalistic. Interesting change.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nessgavin

I'm finding very beautiful and moving.

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Book II is pretty exciting. Drama, fighting, gods--there's a lot going on. I like the part when Aeneas sees the Gods wrecking Troy and realizes that everything's lost. It often reminds me of other situations when it seems like things are out of your control.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nessgavin

I'm struck by the sense of predestination, fate, etc. Different from the Iliad and the Odyssey. The Iliad had more than the Odyssey but much of it seemed to be the gods playing with mortals. The Odyssey seemed to give a lot of responibility to the mortals. From the opening when the gods laugh and say that the mortals just blame them for their troubles when in fact they make their own hardships. But the Aeneid is very fatalistic. Interesting change.

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The Gods do appear to be more commanding here. It could be because Vergil had a better idea of the narrative's shape to begin with than did Homer. Since the Iliad and Odysses were oral tales subject to retelling and all the alterations that come it, Homer probably didn't know exactly what would follow as much as Vergil who could devise the entire work ahead of time. Vergil, then, could put the Gods in charge of the narrative in a way that perhaps Homer couldn't. That is what the Gods do in the Aeneid, after all. They tell Aeneas exactly what's going to happen in the story--what direction that narrative will take. Aeneas has to bend his will to the events forecasted.

I too am reading the Aeneid this year. Happy to participate in the forum.

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Originally Posted by Bartolomeus

I too am reading the Aeneid this year. Happy to participate in the forum.

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I'll be glad to discuss anything you wish on the Aenied Bart. Just feel free to stop back to this thread. If I miss your posts, just drop me a note in my profile page. And welcome to lit net. Hope you enjoy it. :)

are you guys still reading "the Aeneid"? i have enjoyed reading the comments about the previous five books and would like to hear what everyone has to say on the rest. is it a new thread somewhere?

I can discuss it with you. I actually read the final six books last month. It was just a little tedious to keep this thread up. But feel free to discuss whatever you wish. The work is realtively fresh and on my mental fingertips. :)

well, i really enjoy hearing what everyone says, but some questions are, where is Aeneas in book IX? and also, do you think that when Virgil repeatedly calls Aeneas "pious Aeneas" he is being sarcastic? i mean, he had the emperor looking over his shoulder and this was Rome's "founding narrative." so did Virgil really think that Aeneas was pious or courageous or just appeasing the Roman elite? what do you think about the Fates and Jove? who serves who? look forward to discussing.

Hi I'm sorry to be joining so late in the game but don't worry I have all ready read the Aeneid twice in Latin class.
So Patrick (if you don't mind me calling you Patrick) to give what I believe is a plausible answer to your question I would have to say that Virgil genuinely thought Aeneas was pious and admired him very much. I base this on the whole idea that this was not like some book report he wrote this was a major work of enormous density and to be able to just lie through your teeth and like it for more than 1000 lines alone is hard enough.
The fates and Jove is a good question but the way you stated the question I don't like because Jove does have power over the out come of things hence all the head nodding he does and the supplication he gets, but take this power he has with a grain of salt. The power that Jove has he does not exorcise beyond the decrees of fate because the role of fate is not to impose a destiny on us (at least for the Romans) it is to tell us what will bring the best outcome. For more proof look at the word for fate in Latin fato from the word farri which literally means to say or to decree fato is the future tense.
For a better illustration of how the Romans would interpret fate read the Fagle's translation of the death of Sarpaedon in the Iliad. This shows fate to be more like the common denominator of what is best for all.
By the way it is pronounced lay-AWK-oo-on not lau-COON

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Originally Posted by patrickb.palmer

well, i really enjoy hearing what everyone says, but some questions are, where is Aeneas in book IX? and also, do you think that when Virgil repeatedly calls Aeneas "pious Aeneas" he is being sarcastic? i mean, he had the emperor looking over his shoulder and this was Rome's "founding narrative." so did Virgil really think that Aeneas was pious or courageous or just appeasing the Roman elite? what do you think about the Fates and Jove? who serves who? look forward to discussing.

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Absolutely not sarcasm as to "pius Aeneas."

so, eve adler has a fascinating book on "virgil's empire" and gives a very political reading.
i haven't read it all, but the idea I like from her is that Virgil is responding to Lucretius' De Rerum Natura- an explanation of epicureanism but using an epic form that people can recognize and relate to.
epicureanism- quark is probably up on this, but denies the existence of gods, or at least of gods who meddle in everyday human affairs. when we die, we break up into smaller parts- "atoms" and that life is more random than people care to think
Lucretius thinks he can turn everyday men into "philosophers" with his epic, but seems to have given little thought to what the outcome of this might be.
virgil responds (acc to adler) by writing a greater epic, because Virgil knows that while Lucretius may be right, that people need a reason for restraint and decorum. that most people won't be "philosophers" in the truest sense (and thus not understand why they need to control/curb their baser instincts/impluses- only thinking, hey- no gods, no punishment) and therefore need more simple guidelines for living and more fiery justice imagined in the heavens.
False dreams: virgil knows that his tale of the underworld is untrue but nonetheless extremely necessary for culture and civilization. Rome has been through over a century of civil wars and Virgil wants to refound rome as stable and promoting life. (not constant power grabs and self aggrandizement)

adler's argument made fantastic sense to me.
about the sybil and sex: seems like Apollo is IN her. not just her voice. So, yes- there are womb implications in the cave as well as echoes (sorry) of :
plato's cave
Joseph Campbell and others argue the freudian/jungian cave/subconscious/id connection
and it's a womb of sorts out of which Aeneas is reborn a roman. (i know you were getting there... someone said it earlier)

enough for my first post in this thread. hah. i'm on book 6 right now and it has to be the best.