Is this because Shakespeare changed the real setting of the story which his play is based?Quote:
Originally Posted by bouquin
Printable View
Is this because Shakespeare changed the real setting of the story which his play is based?Quote:
Originally Posted by bouquin
That is an interesting observation. I'll have to give it some thought.Quote:
Originally Posted by bouquin
Now that IS intresting, all things concideredQuote:
Originally Posted by sofia82
?Quote:
What do you think of this switching of characters
I was actually wondering if the switch is significant, Im not sure if the archetypal stereotypy of the people from warmer countries being 'hot blooded' and prone to extremes of emotion was around in Shakespeare's day but if it was, could it be significant that Leon and Othello ( another protagonist who flies off the handle with jealousy) were from warmer countries than the victims of their jealousies?
Humm is that waht leads to what happens soon do you think ? The time period?Quote:
Originally Posted by Scheherazade
Id agree with that :nod:Quote:
I don't think Leon means this literally as such. I think he means "are they already whispering (gossiping) behind my back?"; not because he has actually seen (or thinks he has seen) anyone doing so.
[QUOTE=Nightshade;590623]Now that IS intresting, all things concidered
Humm is that waht leads to what happens soon do you think ? The time period? QUOTE]
I think I have commented on these two points already - ref: #21
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightshade
You raised a very valid point there about people from warmer climes being more 'hot blooded.'
And regarding the geographical location of Bohemia, it seems that there was a time when the territory extended all the way to the Adriatic coast so that it was not at all the land-locked area that it is today.
Prompt attack or long-standing malady, Leon's jealousy is indeed something very bizarre. But what I find even more outlandish - appalling, actually - is the punishment that he decides to inflict on Polix and Hermi, and the threat that he makes upon Camillo if the latter doesn't execute his wishes.
Just popped in to say hi and that I am trying to see how far the discusion has progressed. I am pretty much lost so far since I only read this one page but that does seem to be ironical, Sophia. I also liked the points that Scher brought up about the time-span.
My home computer is still non functional basically, so I am back in the library and time is so limited here. I need to get here earlier next week so I can catch up somewhat. Unfortunately they are closed the whole weekend and probably on Monday as well for the holiday - Independence Day - our 4th of July.
It seems the discussion is going along well. I am anxious to read more of the pages and post some comments - ones I have been thinking of when I am at home but don't have the time to write in this forum presently; they close at 9*frown*. So see you all next week!
Don't worry Janine, it seems we post comment a day and do nothing for the whole week. So you will be not so far behind ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
So Happy Independence Day!Quote:
My home computer is still non functional basically, so I am back in the library and time is so limited here. I need to get here earlier next week so I can catch up somewhat. Unfortunately they are closed the whole weekend and probably on Monday as well for the holiday - Independence Day - our 4th of July.
Hope to see you soon with your comments and of course new computer!:yawnb:Quote:
It seems the discussion is going along well. I am anxious to read more of the pages and post some comments - ones I have been thinking of when I am at home but don't have the time to write in this forum presently; they close at 9*frown*. So see you all next week!
I think it is one of the factors that make Leon suspicious.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightshade
Enjoy your break, Janine! Hope you can sort out the problems soon! :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Just popping in quickly - the darn library closes now in a half hour. Silly since you would think it would be open on Friday night to keep the kids off the streets. Thanks everyone for you thumbs up. I actually have listened to the entire play now and hope to post some comments next week if I can fit it in. I am still considering what to do about a new computer. I was out looking; it all just takes time, right? I was sorry most of all to be missing this discussion. I even bought the play on DVD but I have not watched that yet - maybe this weekend. It should make the play clearer to me. Thanks Scher and thanks Sophia for you considerate/encouraging words.
The play progresses very quickly, doesn't it? I think that Leonettes goes from being so mean and unreasonable to his being sorry pretty rapidly. I guess when this play was first shown on stage in the Globe Theater, it had to progress rapidly to keep the attention of the audience. I do think this play draws one into the story quickly. The poor judgement of Leonettes does drive the plot from the beginning and rapidly all the other tragedies ensue.
Does anyone know at what time in Shakespeare's career/life this play was written?
It is an interesting play and one that is great to discuss. Be back next week with some more specific thoughts. Glad things are not progressing too quickly so that most likely I can catch up.
Janine if your computer is at all fixable then the chaps over at tech forums can probably helpQuote:
Originally Posted by Janine
http://www.tech-forums.net/pc/
I am one of those chaps on occasion :D , seriously though they have a very good security team if you have problems with viruses, the windows forum and the hardware forum are a bit more hit and miss but still not bad.
Back on topic, I haven't read the whole play yet but I haven't gotten the impression that Leontes irrational behaviour is anything more than jealously - jealously can be very powerful and personally I can fully believe the scenario, sounds like classic jealousy in fact. jealousy is a violent, bitter, vengeful emotion which can be quite cold blooded like hate.
Hi, DapperDrake. How's the reading going so far? I think most of us are on Act II or III right now, but I'm sure you'll catch up. After all, Act II is very short.Quote:
Originally Posted by DapperDrake
As for jealousy, it was much discussed in the Act I discussion--though I'm not sure if we reached a consensus about it. We can say with some certainty that, yes, jealousy causes his behavior; however, the question that was argued over was whether his jealousy is innate or the result of his susceptibility to momentary impressions. Does that make any sense? The disagreement is over whether Leontes is just naturally jealous, or whether certain characteristics of Leontes make him susceptible to jealousy. It may seem like this argument is rather unimportant, but I think it actually has a large impact on how we interpret the rest of the play. I prefer to think of Leontes jealousy as caused by other traits in the King himself. Specifically, I look at his weakness of character which makes him susceptible to any thought that enters his head. In Act II he will say "I am a feather for each wind that blows" (ii, 154), and that is quite telling. It makes it seem like his thoughts are consumed by whatever slight impressions he receives. He becomes jealous then because his uncontrollable mind yields to a few suspicious interactions between Hermione and Polixenes. He isn't just a naturally jealous person.
Reading is going slowly :) I'm about 1/2 way through Act II I think but I wanted to voice some opinions about Act I first.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quark
"I am a feather for each wind that blows"Quote:
Originally Posted by Quark
Yes this is about where I'm up to, but I simply take it that he's commenting on his surrender to his jealousy, he's saying that he cannot reason because his will is taken off by jealousy. (jealousy the wind and his will the feather)
My interpretation (bear in mind I'm only up to Act II Scene III) is that this is a simple tale of jealously with little else to be read into it from a motivational point of view.
I would say Leontes has been brooding over his jealously for months, its been gently simmering under the surface and then in act 1 scene 2 we see the trigger that causes his jealousy to boil over into a full passion.
later on in scene 2 where Leontes is talking to Camillo, lines 281-305, where Leontes describes the basis of his jealousy to Camillo I think clearly demonstrates that the jealousy precedes the start of the play.
I think that is also born out by the coldness with which Leontes asks Polixenes to stay another week - he's just observing the forms of hospitality and doesn't actually want Polixenes to stay, Hermione brings him up on it "You, Sir, charge him too coldly". Also I would say leontes preceding line is sarcastic "Tongue-tied, our queen? Speak you." - he's expecting her to come in an plead with Polixenes to stay because he suspects her infidelity.
In 1.2 lines 13-14 Polixenes says "Besides, I have stayed to tire your royalty.", I think this shows Polixenes has recognised that Leontes is off with him though it doesn't necessarily indicate that he knows the reason why.
So I think its safe to conclude that Leontes is not merely reacting to a momentary impression but has in fact been incubating a violent jealousy for an extended period, his queen entreating Polixenes to stay and then Polixenes agreeing to stay are the final straws and focus his feelings on the two of them.
That's okay. I'd like to talk about Act I more anyway. It's the best of the first three, I think.Quote:
Originally Posted by DapperDrake
I don't know. If he were trying to indicate just his jealousy here, he wouldn't say "each" wind. More likely, he would say "the" wind. "Each" gives the idea that he would yield to any kind of influence, not just one specific influence.Quote:
Originally Posted by DapperDrake
But at least some part of what Leontes says in that speech must be made up. He can't possibly have seen all this. Does he know her thoughts? Have they really been "kissing with inside lip?" The king is clearly making some stuff up here. Who's to say he isn't inventing everything in this speech? Very little of what Leontes claims can be believed after he becomes paranoid.Quote:
Originally Posted by DapperDrake
I think if we're to find a basis for Leontes's jealousy we need to look at that part just after the hand clasp. Here, Leontes is either speaking in an aside or talking to Mamillus which is almost aside since Mamillus doesn't know what Leontes is talking about. This part gives us a look into Leontes's mind better than any other part. It's a moment of self-contemplation for Leontes, and it marks the beginning of his paranoia. It makes sense to look here for the basis of his madness since Leontes is doing the same at this point. What he says is very helpful, too:
This makes it sound like he's merely imagining much of what he supposes Hermione and Polixenes are doing. The fact that he's giving in to this kind of thinking appears to be his problem. Later in the play we'll see that he does this with another feeling. Rather than jealousy, he'll get carried away with something else.Quote:
Affection! thy intention stabs the centre.
Thou dost make possible things not so held,
Communicat'st with dreams (how can this be?),
With what's unreal thou co-active art,
And fellow'st nothing. (I, ii, 138-142)
It is possible that Leontes has been harboring jealous thoughts since before the play. It's also possible that they started in the first hundred lines of the play. We're told almost nothing of their past. Hermione charges Leontes of being too "cold" in his offer to Polixenes, but I don't think she means that Leontes was being chilly toward his friend. It means more that Leontes didn't pursue his point with enough vigor. That isn't overwhelming evidence that Leontes thinks Polixenes is sleeping with his wife. Leontes in general is a weaker character than his wife, and it would make sense that he wouldn't pursue his argument with Polizenes with the strength that his wife would.Quote:
Originally Posted by DapperDrake
Moreover, the time of origin for Leontes's jealousy doesn't change the above point. I know I used the word "momentary" in my last post, but really all I meant was weak or small. It's not necessarily that Leontes is giving into a "momentary" impression--although, he could be--it's that he's yielding to a "weak" impression. It's the act of yielding to his jealousy that's important, and not the jealousy itself. The quote above shows how a feeling can be blown out of proportion, and that's what Leontes is doing.
So what happened to the discussion? I will have to catch up and see what I can add. I just reviewed by watching the screen presentation of the play by the RSC - very good; you can all view photos of the production and others on this play, in the Shakespeare Stage and Screen Pictures thread.
Inevitably Shakespeare's works is too intricate if it is written in original text.Modern text will alleviate the problems.I cannot comprehend at all if it is in original text.My head churned immediately.