:eek: :eek2: Oh my. I'm excited too. The baby and the mother will be in my prayers tonight. Good luck and let us know.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
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:eek: :eek2: Oh my. I'm excited too. The baby and the mother will be in my prayers tonight. Good luck and let us know.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
I just PM'd you, but I am glad you saw this. Yes, I think I am a nervous wreck! Thanks and your prayers are greatly appreciated, Virgil. Glad I can share this with all of you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Antiquarian, Yeah, no posting text tonight....sorry everyone...can't be helped... I am too tired already; need to pep up. Excitement is wearing me out. I think I'll go and take a short cat nap incase, I am called to the hospital soon. In fact, Sean just called and said that is a good idea; could be hours from now, as it stands, but all is going very well. I may just be going there tomorrow morning...who knows. I will keep you all informed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiquarian
Well, now it is morning and no baby yet; but the time is close at hand, so the doctors say. I'll keep you posted. Mother and I will be going up there soon.
I could not sleep well, so I worked briefly and quickly on some of the text last night before I went to sleep.
THE NEW PART OF THE TEXT:
Is this a metaphor of himself – this tree and the way he describes it; or even a metaphor for Winifred – the way he perceives her?Quote:
At the gate of a small house in a dark tree-lined street, both waited a moment. From her garden leaned an almond tree whose buds, early this year, glistened in the light of the street lamp, with theatrical effect. He broke off a twig.
"I always remember this tree," he said; "how I used to feel sorry for it when it was full out, and so lively, at midnight in the lamplight. I thought it must be tired."
I like the line I bolded up about the almond tree…beautiful poetic writing. Is there any special significance pointing out that her house is in a dark tree-lined street?
I can’t remember, did he answer this question of Winifred’s before or is he just now admitting to his sleeping arrangements for the night?Quote:
"Will you come in?" she asked tenderly.
"I did get a room in town," he answered, following her.
Quote:
She opened the door with her latch-key, showing him, as usual, into the drawing-room. Everything was just the same; cold in colouring, warm in appointment; ivory-coloured walls, blond, polished floor, with thick ivory-coloured rugs; three deep arm-chairs in pale amber, with large cushions; a big black piano, a violin-stand beside it; and the room very warm with a clear red fire, the brass shining hot. Coutts, according to his habit,
What exactly are piano-candles? This imagine of lighting the piano-candles and lowering the blinds sounds like he is secluding them; seeking privacy.Quote:
lit the piano-candles and lowered the blinds.
I was thinking that in music there are ‘variations’.Quote:
"I say," he said; "this is a variation from your line!"
I am curious to know why he thought they were out of place on the piano being red or so it seems to be because of the color, but is it merely because she has any flowers at all on the piano, something he has not known before to be characteristic of her?.... and he thought he knew her so well….it that why he comments in surprise about the red flowers?Quote:
He pointed to a bowl of magnificent scarlet anemones that stood on the piano.
"Why?" she asked, pausing in arranging her hair at the small mirror.
"On the piano!" he admonished.
"Only while the table was in use," she smiled, glancing at the litter of papers that covered her table.
What significance do the scentless flowers have; why so significant to Coutts in his usual image of Winifred; also why does he see her only buying the pastel flowers that are scented? Does the red represent a signal to Coutts of passion that he had not known of before?Quote:
"And then--red flowers!" he said.
"Oh, I thought they were such a fine piece of colour," she replied.
"I would have wagered you would buy freesias," he said.
"Why?" she smiled. He pleased her thus.
"Well--for their cream and gold and restrained, bruised purple, and their scent. I can't believe you bought scentless flowers!"
"What!" She went forward, bent over the flowers.
"I had not noticed," she said, smiling curiously, "that they were scentless."
She touched the velvet black centres.
"Would you have bought them had you noticed?" he asked.
She thought for a moment, curiously.
"I don't know . . . probably I should not."
"You would never buy scentless flowers," he averred. "Any more than you'd love a man because he was handsome."
"I did not know," she smiled. She was pleased.
Red poppies can also signify remembrance, such as of the fallen soldiers in France during the war.
Ah, the fateful lamp….Quote:
The housekeeper entered with a lamp, which she set on a stand.
Yelena, you are welcome about the text posting. Well, you all can play around now with the text for a few days, right? I didn't want to leave you all aimless.:lol: and floundering in here. Anyway, it was no problems - kind of relaxed me to get to sleep. I had to unwind some last night.Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiquarian
Probably once get to the hospital, we will be there most of the day; then stop somewhere to out to eat coming back; just my mom and I. She is really excited. Me too!:) No doubt I can let you all know tonight, later on.
Just editing this to tell you all the good news - Baby 'Brooke' is here!!! and she weights nearly 9 lbs...ouch! She is healthy and beautiful with dark curly hair. Mother and baby are doing fine. Sean just called and we are heading up the hospital very soon. Will fill you in later on details. I am finally the proud grandma.... offically!
That's great news, Janine! It's good to know it's official now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Thanks, Quark, that is so sweet of you. They made me a Congratulations thread on the forum. Isn't that nice? I am so happy today and relieved, as well. I slept well and will see the baby tonight hopefully. I won't have my mind much on Lawrence this week, sorry. My priority lays in my grand-daughter for now. Go ahead and discuss the text I posted if you all want to. I don't mind one bit missing this part. I will catch up later or check in late at night and comment. I think we got to that part you were interested in with the red flowers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quark
Thanks Antiquarian, too and for your greeting in email and your other congrats in the Congratulation thread, as well as your good wishes in this thread.
I am back for a little while anyway; taking a break today from going to the hospital, want to give my son and his wife and baby their privacy.
Anyway, I thought by now, you all would have discussed the text above, that I posted. I had some comments and also some questions that I thought would inspire some discussion here. Where is everyone? Dark Muse (I need you so we can have healthy opposition), Antiquarian, Virgil, and Quark...where did you all run off to? Our L thread is fading away and will slip into page two soon.
Oh, take your time then, Antiquarian. I fully understand. After reading some of Lawrence's letters, I believe he felt just like you are feeling right now at times; frustrated. Don't always think it not a struggle for some of these author genius'.Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiquarian
I am really tired tonight anyway. I was just trying to keep the thread going. If my last text post is lost, back a few pages, I can always re-post it. Did you see my post in 'what book are you reading'? I finally settled on two - both short Lawrence works. They seemed a good idea to fill in right now; since I can't devote full attention for long.
Antiquarian, thanks for finding this post and good luck with your editing. Sometimes true 'art' can be very difficult indeed. I can't wait to read your final draft of your story.
Sorry I have been busy lately with school and well yall scared me away with all the baby talk :D
But I have been meaning to comment on your last post of the story, just keep getting caught up in things when I think I am going to do so. And it has been so hot here which slows my brain cells down.
The idea of the dark tree-lined street, just gives me the image of it being somewhere kind of secluded, and sort of set off or apart from the lively festivities of the house he left to follow Winnie. It also gives me the image of almost a tunnel, when I think of photos I have seen of streets that have trees on either side of them, it is more of a private, closed in felling, and could be a sort of transitional period.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
This line to me seems like it is suggesting Coutts, perhaps this is how he views himself. He feel like his is getting older, and perhaps a part of him is tired of his bachelor life, and he does want to settle down, though he is still on the brink.Quote:
I always remember this tree," he said; "how I used to feel sorry for it when it was full out, and so lively, at midnight in the lamplight. I thought it must be tired."
I do not recall him brining it up any time before thisQuote:
Originally Posted by Janine
I think they are just suppose to be candles that were placed upon the piano. I tried to research it, and could not find anything that is acutally called a "piano-candle"Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
I am still not completely sure what to make of the flowers here, I am going to have to mull this one over still for a bit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
It is interesting how the lamp is pointed out here, while it is being brought it. Almost makes me think of a play when they are moving the props onto stage for the next scene. Perhaps this is meant to be some sort of foreshadow.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
DM's right. I think they're just candles on the piano, and not some special thing called "piano candles." Whatever they are, they do seclude them, and create a more intimate setting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
The red flowers are an indication of her new-found boldness which Coutts isn't used to seeing. That's why he reacts to the flowers, and Winifred admits that she wishes she hadn't bought them. They're both uncomfortable with her being so aggressive.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
The absence of scent is like the absence of real love in Winifred's passion for Coutts at this point. The color is rich and alluring, but the flower is scentless. Winifred's desire is similarly substanceless.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Dark Muse, I agree with all you pointed out in your post right before this one. Hey, Dm...is that a first? We actually agree. ;) :D
Dark Muse and Quark, I was actually watching this film, I own about Lawrence and one scene is his mother playing the piano, with Lawrence as a child looking on. The film features his poems and this one I believe is called "Piano".,..oddly enough and I had not even noticed this, when I viewed it before - the piano had the piano candles, he is speaking of in this story. They apparently were holders on both ends of the piano right above the keys. The holder jutted out from the body of the piano and therefore, the candles they held, illuminated the keys directly. How strange, that I had not noticed this before. I will try and locate a photo online. I never have seen them before this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quark
Good point. Red is such a bold color. The pastels would have indicated a more sedate way of thinking or acting on Winifred's behalf. Yes, maybe tonight it the night he notices the red, since red usually indicates passion and often true love, such as in the color of roses.Quote:
The red flowers are an indication of her new-found boldness which Coutts isn't used to seeing. That's why he reacts to the flowers, and Winifred admits that she wishes she hadn't bought them. They're both uncomfortable with her being so aggressive.
Another very good point. Thanks, Quark and everyone else for posting some comments. I will check over my own post and see if we missed anything I asked specifically. At least this brought the thread up in the listings again. Same with Chekhov thread. That is good - keep them active. :) :thumbs_upQuote:
The absence of scent is like the absence of real love in Winifred's passion for Coutts at this point. The color is rich and alluring, but the flower is scentless. Winifred's desire is similarly substanceless.
LOL that is frighteningQuote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Yes, I am still trembling with awe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
Perhpas Winni is suppose to be a very "preditcable" person, that typicaly does not stray from her usual routine and so he is surprised to see something out of place, and later she does sort of "defend" herself for the change:
Quote:
"Only while the table was in use" she smiled, glancing at the litter of papers that covered her table.
Antiquarian, That may be a possibility or a sort of sign or signal in Coutts mind that she indeed would like to go further sexually with him. Red is a very desirous color. I don't think the normal flowers she would have were referred to as white but rather pastels; these would indicate a more sedate or calm nature.Quote:
Maybe Coutts expected Winifred to have white flowers because she has not engaged in a sexual relationship with him. In fact, that's one of the reasons why I think their relationship has been strictly non-sexual. He is shocked at the presence of the red anemones and expects her to have purchased something like white freesias, instead.
I think that below, Dark Muse is answering this fine. I don't know if I see any other deeper significance in them, except that they draw more attention to the piano, which can also indicate a more passionate nature, instrument of passionate expression.Quote:
What I don't understand is why he's shocked that flowers have been placed on the piano.
Hi Everyone! You won't believe this. I just picked the next story; the one we will discuss next month for this thread. The thing is I was looking online on Amazon last night and recalled I had put this audio CD in my wishlist. However, I discovered one can download the MP3 file, for only 2 dollars; it is one of the short stories, so I figured it must be a good one - the CD sells for 20 dollars. So today at breakfast, I read the story. I liked it very much and when I got to the ending, I did recall I had read it before. So, I think that would be a good one to do next time. I will definitely download the narration (MP3 file for $2) and when I post the name of the story (keeping it secret now) I will also post the audiofile link, in case any of you want to do the same. It will be a good addition to my Lawrence collection, which is growing by 'leaps and bounds' lately.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
Later today, should I post more of the text to this story or do you want to discuss this part further? Whichever is fine with me.
Oh, so there are special "piano candles." They must not be very big, or else they must get in the way of playing--or set you ablaze. I could use some monitor candles, actually. This new flat screen is really difficult to see at certain angles. Some illumination would really help.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Also, I started reading Women in Love, yesterday. It's been pretty enjoyable so far. Although, there have been many of those annoying Lawrence sentences where he uses zillions of pronouns without proper antecedents. They go something like this:
Lawrence goes into indecipherable stretches like this, and I have no clue what he's talking about exactly.Quote:
Then she looked into that of his which fell from him every time she was brought close to it. It was this thisness which she reviled, hated, loathed, found odious, and was repelled from. If only she could surpass his thisness with her thatness intact. Then it would happen.
Yes, there are actually things known as piano candlesticks. Look them up online. I will post one photo later, that I copied to my file, so you can get an idea of what they are like. They are at each end of the piano, not really directly over the keys, so you can't get burnt. They are a kind of sconce, I believe that attaches to the piano, instead of a wall.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quark
Quark, Your new monitor probaby needs adjusting for color and tone and brightness; I went back to the store and asked the salesmen of help with that. Also I sat mine on a few books to elevate it. It has to be at the right angle to see it correctly. Try elevating it some. The instruction booklet should clue you in on these facts and the adjustments.
Glad you are reading it. It is a good novel. Lawrence felt it was his best. Come now - is that the exact quote, Quark? If so, where is it in the novel? "Women in Love" is my favorite novel of Lawrence's. In fact, I am now relistening to it on MP3 - I just finished listening to it and started it over again, can you believe it? I must know which page that section of text was taken from, so I can look that up....curious now...try to shed some light on it for you...if I can...hahahaQuote:
Also, I started reading Women in Love, yesterday. It's been pretty enjoyable so far. Although, there have been many of those annoying Lawrence sentences where he uses zillions of pronouns without proper antecedents. They go something like this:
Hahah - maybe I can help you with some of those. By two readings and now one listening to a narration and starting a forth time around I might know what he is talking about - I should hope so, anyway.Quote:
Lawrence goes into indecipherable stretches like this, and I have no clue what he's talking about exactly.
I will answer everyone else later. Have to make a phone call and get ready to go see my grandchild.
Well, seems I can answer more posts now - can't get through on the phone.
So on with Antiquarian's -
Yes, I would assume that and also wouldn't that indicate that she really was not expecting anyone? I thought seeing Coutts at Laurie's house was a surprise/shock for her.Quote:
I also wondered what the litter of papers was, but I guess Winifred was a music teacher. Or at least a musician.
And I would think that would make a difference. 'White' would indicate 'purity', while the other flowers, being pastel, may indicate a sort of passiveness or a kind of 'shyness or reserve'; these she would normally have displayed in her house. Where as 'red', to me, blantantly indicates or suggests a much 'bolder' aspect and perhaps reflects Winifred's new mood directly to Coutts; that is why he is in a state of astonishment. It is so unlike her usual mood.Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiquarian
Well, I happen to love piano music and see it as very passionate. Beethoven without passion? He basically played the piano, didn't he? I think you have been influenced by your own dislike of the instrument and your frustration in not liking to play it. I always find the piano wonderfully emotional and passionate. Funny how some see it so differently. I like the violin and it can make me cry sometimes, but sometimes the passion of it and the high tones become too much for me. How can one listen to Debussy and to Chopin and not hear/feel real passion in their piano compositions?Quote:
Do you and DM see the piano as more passionate than the violin? I don't. The piano is kind of a cold instrument to me, very unemotional, but perhaps that's just me because I heartily dislike playing it. LOL Actually, one very professional pianist told me a lot of people find playing the piano unemotional because we don't actually "make" the music ourselves - we strike the keys and that causes a hammer to strike the strings. Now, with the violin, we're in direct contact with the strings as we draw the bow over them. I just thought that was interesting. I've always remembered it as possibly the source of my aversion for the piano.
Well, I'm very anxious to learn the name of the next story. :)
Technically, that is an interesting observation, Antiquarian, but I don't agree, at all, with the idea of it not measuring up to the violin. I personally love both. Also, how can one evaluate music or sound technically? I love the movie scores I own; the ones that are basically piano. I loved the music to the film "The Piano" and to the film "The Pianist". Both rely heavily on piano orchestrations.
Antiquarian, now I made you all so curious to know the next story title; I can't tell you yet or you will all abandon these ending parts of this story.....hahah...can't slack off yet.....we are getting to the real climax of the story real soon....
Antiq, how are your revisions coming along?
Antiquarian, actually.... I am that type who connects with the piano, more than I do the violin. I like the violin, but some violin music can actually get on my nerves; whereas, piano has a range and I can process that better at times. I know it is all personal preference. It probably is due to the fact, that my father always played me piano music (on records), when I was a baby, and I loved it. He played Gershwin's 'Rapsody in Blue' continually, so I guess I grew up loving that piece, that being jazz/classical mix and not really pure classical. He did play me plenty of classical and especially Beethoven, so I acquired the ear for the piano. My mother played the piano, as well. My aunt played the violin, but I don't know just how well. I never heard her play. One of my favorites is Debussy's 'Claire de Lune' and 'La Mer' - can those be played on a violin? I don't really know much technically, but thought they were usually featured on the piano. I love 'Moonlight Sonata' and 'The 9th Symphony', plus it amazes me that Beethoven wrote that when stone deaf.Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiquarian
Antiquarian, yes, I think that listeners do not process the music on the level of the technical. In fact, sometimes I prefer to only hear/feel it, and not actually 'see' the instruments, that techically, the music is coming from. I guess I like the fantasy of it all and the way it all blends, each note into the other and becomes a whole. I did not know that you played the violin - that is splendid!Quote:
Being a reluctant pianist, (LOL) though, I do know you have to evaluate the music on a technical basis at times. It's not fun, but it must be done. Right now, my piano needs to be revoiced as well as tuned, but I'm not of a mind to have it done. I don't think listeners evaluate a piece of music from a technical standpoint, though. Even I don't when I listen and I studied piano for many years. I should play much better than I do, but my preference for the violin interferred with my piano studies, of course.
Maybe you are a 'perfectionist', like me, with my artwork. Problem is when being that way, (I am way too picky) one tends to never truly finish anything. You would not believe how much artwork, I have sitting right here, waiting to be completed - we are talking years now.:( I just could not be satisified with it, so I put it asside, until I thought I could complete it correctly. Not a good thing in the end really. I just found out that Da Vinci hardly ever completed anything. I think the record is under 10 paintings, that he actually completed. Maybe I am normal for an artist, who knows?Quote:
My revisions are slow and painstaking. I am such a painstaking writer and it's so hard to edit oneself.
Yes, but now the question comes up in my mind: if she did not expect to see Coutts that night the flowers were truly a chance for her; so now when Coutts sees them there, he notes this change, from when she was with him last. Interesting thought. Like he might have wanted her to be more bold; so he departs from her life; and ironically, she becomes more bold in her mood and actions with his absense. Maybe before he would advise her never to sit them on the piano and now it is a sort act of defiance; or could be the opposite - maybe she always wanted them on the table and he on the piano.Quote:
I agree with your assessment about the red anemones. Coutts is just very surprised to see them and they indicate a change in "mood" on Winifred's part.
Quote:
Yes, very anxious to know the title of the new story. Not to abandon this one, but to see if I have it in one of my books.
Antiquarian, which Lawrence short story books do you now own? I asked you this before, and what other books by Cambridge (you mentioned buying some recently) but you must not have seen my question; I have been curious. I have many of the short story editions and wanted to see which ones you bought, so we could compare notes. This short story is also available from Amazon - you just download the MP3 audiofile for a mere $2.00. I thought that would be fun. The story is not that long; I read it at breakfast today. It went quickly. It does not have as much complicated symbolism, as this last story had...it is more straightforward - might be an earlier story...I will check in my reference books. I think Michael Black has some commentary on it and some in another book - the timeline book.
Antiquarian, Yes, very beautiful...I like "Fur Elise" too. Oh, I thought you meant you played the violin. Yes, I would love to be able to play any instrument, but unfortunately, my talent does not lie in musical instruments. I used to sing, but not a great singer. I was in my high school play and was told I sang well, but I never had much confidence. Singing takes practice, so I am sure by now, my voice is quite gone...Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiquarian
I own this DVD of the ballet version of "Lady of the Camilas" and the entire ballet is piano - Chopin. It is one of the most passionate ballets I have ever seen - really intense. I may watch that again tonight. I just love it. Another example of beautiful piano music.
That is strange, I saw that movie about the same time. Ed Harris, right? I wasn't real sure about it. Ed Harris is always interesting to see and he is a very fine actor. I think I preferred his role in 'Pollack' though. I wasn't at all sure about the woman who played the role of the copier - I forget just who now; I know she was pretty, but that part did not seem quite real to me. I thought Ed Harris portrayed him a little too crude, but I know the genius was not such a nice person; he had a lot of inner anger and a nasty temper. I think I prefer the other film that I own called "Eternal Beloved", about Beethoven and his muse(s). One scene is amazing with Gary Oldman playing the piano, with his head laying on the top of the grand piano, in order to perceive the vibrations.Quote:
A year ago, I watch the movie "Copying Beethoven," which was delightful. If you like Beethoven, I think you'd love it.
I knew it; soon you will drive yourself crazy with too many revisions! Short stories are quite difficult to write and get correct....just so....Quote:
Yes, I'm a perfectionist with regard to writing short stories. Not other writing, necessarily, but with short stories, yes. And after lyric poetry, the short story is the most difficult thing to write.
Oh good, you see my point then.Quote:
I did forget that Winifred didn't expect to see Coutts that night. She didn't put the red flowers there for him.
I looked two up on Amazon. One I could not see the table of contents; the other is this one:Quote:
I only own two Lawrence books so far, one is "The Cambridge Companion to D.H. Lawrence," which contains critical essays on his work, and the other is "Selected Stories of D.H. Lawrence," which is published by Penguin Classics. It contains a lot of the stories you've already read, which is nice for me, as I do want to read them, even though I missed the discussion.
http://www.amazon.com/Selected-Stori...58/ref=sr_1_2? (is this the one you bought?) If so I looked in the table of contents and it is not in there, unfortunately. I was hopeful when I saw the book was 400 pages long. It probably is online somewhere. I will go and search for it. I will PM you if I find it or post when we get ready to read it.
Is that other book good: "The Cambridge Companion to D.H.Lawrence"? I actually think I have that in my wishlist but then thought - do I really need another commentary book - it might just repeat the ones I do own.
You can find all the stories and novels, etc on this site - full texts:
http://gutenberg.net.au/pages/lawren...l#shortstories
Looks like I am here tonight afterall and not going out. My son said to come over to the house Monday night (my mom and I); tomorrow his wife and baby are coming home; so tonight is a bit hectic. I don't mind; not feeling real good myself anyway, probaby just tired out.
I will try and post some more text later on.
I kind of agree with both you and Janine here. It is true that piano music can be very passionate. But I also agree that the act of playing the violen is visually more passionate in appearnce than the act of playing the piano is. I think that the physcial act of playing the piano does come acorss as more cold and distant than the phycial act of playing the violen. But I also think that Pianist do have as much passion for thier music as violenist have.Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiquarian
Yes, that is well put, Antiquarian; I truly believe that is true and of all great artists. They lose themselves in their work and the work becomes a part of them. This sense of 'losing oneself' or 'giving oneself up' to the art is what makes the art great. The music/art is not just a mere extension of themselves - it is themselves expressed on paper/canvas or in sound.Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiquarian
Exactly, and I think that Coutts is well aware of Winifred's passion and her potential passion for a man; which of course, is never realised in this story. I just scanned the text because I thought I recalled one line or part of a statement whereby Coutts noticed this unrealised passion in Winifred but feels it is potentially present. There is one line that says:Quote:
That brings me back to the story. Winifred must have had a very passionate nature. She was a very good musician, who played at least the piano and the violin, perhaps more, and the way Coutts describes her when she's playing, she's very "into" her music. Perhaps she channeled all her passion into her music rather than into any man, much to Coutts' dismay.
but that is not the exact line I was looking for to expound on this idea. Maybe it is about to come up in the next section of type or closer to the end. Interesting how the words 'passionate tones' also refer us back to the idea of music with it's various elements of 'passionate tones.'Quote:
After a wait, she said in a very low, passionate tones
Antiquarian, I see you online now; your green light is on.;) I like those allusions to musical elements, as well. There are many, don't you think?Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiquarian
I am so sleepy all of a sudden. Going to a concert tomorrow with my friend. It is this great local choral group, who sing classical pieces. It is always joyous and relaxing to hear them perform. It will be fun and then after we will go out to dinner somewhere nice. Concert begins at 4PM.
I don't think I will post anymore text tonight, if you all don't mind. I want to watch a movie; still can't decide - too many good ones to chose from, right? I will try and post some tomorrow night instead. I just ran out of energy now.
Quote by Dark Muse:
Dark Muse, That is an interesting thought about the visual aspects of each. Yes, and the violin is held so close to the body while the piano is not, yet the fingers are so sensitive and say it all in the playing - the contact is intimate in the fingers moving along the keys. Didn't you two see the film "The Pianist" when he was only imagining playing the piano and imagining the music - that scene was my favorite. It felt quite intimate and passionate. The contacts may be physical, but the true connection is in the mind and the soul of the musican and the artist.Quote:
I kind of agree with both you and Janine here. It is true that piano music can be very passionate. But I also agree that the act of playing the violen is visually more passionate in appearnce than the act of playing the piano is. I think that the physcial act of playing the piano does come acorss as more cold and distant than the phycial act of playing the violen. But I also think that Pianist do have as much passion for thier music as violenist have.
Oh sorry; fly on over, Antiquarian;:lol: I would rather watch movies with you, then go do my laundry..ugh.:( It is late, I better start watching something or it will get too late for tonight. Also, I am already falling asleep.:yawnb:Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiquarian
I agree, but why do you suppose Lawrence has the piano at her place and the violin out in public. I would think it would be the other way around, if the violin is more passionate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
Perhaps for the sake of the seduction of Coutts, it is when they first reunite again that she is really after him, and wants to sort of lure him away, so perhaps that is why she plays the violen in public, and in his view. But than once she had snared him and they get to her place, is when she decides to draw away from him, so perhaps that is why it is the piano that is in her place.
:lol: :lol: :lol: !!! :bawling: I am crying from laughter!Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiquarian
That makes sense. The violin is more like the alluring attitude she adopts. The piano is her true spirit which is revealed when Coutts arrives at her home.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Muse
I'm just saying the symbolism might make more sense if she did.Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiquarian
BUT did Lawrence really think the piano a passionless instrument? Here is one of his most well known poems:
Note the two words together "piano appassionato".Quote:
D.H. Lawrence (1885–1930). New Poems. 1916.
Piano
SOFTLY, in the dusk, a woman is singing to me;
Taking me back down the vista of years, till I see
A child sitting under the piano, in the boom of the tingling strings
And pressing the small, poised feet of a mother who smiles as she sings.
In spite of myself, the insidious mastery of song
Betrays me back, till the heart of me weeps to belong
To the old Sunday evenings at home, with winter outside
And hymns in the cosy parlour, the tinkling piano our guide.
So now it is vain for the singer to burst into clamour
With the great black piano appassionato. The glamour
Of childish days is upon me, my manhood is cast
Down in the flood of remembrance, I weep like a child for the past.
Pianos often occompany a violin - both can stand alone and be just as full of passion. Coutts carried Winifred's violin home for her. I think all of you are quibbling about trivals here, with the piano and the violin; also stretching the symbolism a bit. Naturally, she would have a piano available to accompany her on her violin. Who is to say she does not play both? Also, Coutts plays a few bars of a classical song with one hand - it's right there in the text. Maybe he played, as well and once accompanied her.
Yes I pointed that out earlier. Music has a charming effect, and is either part of Wini's magic or is intended to be a analogy. I think Janine is correct in bringng up that famous "Piano" poem of Lawrence's. It was probably written around this same time as the writing of this story, early years. I think the suggeston in the poem fits the charming effect in the story.Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiquarian
I can't believe how much conversation you guys have had. Discussion of this story must be over 30 pages at this point. This is way more discussion than any of our previous stories.
I'm not sure if you've passed this passage yet, but I thought it was a very significant one:
We can see the dichotomy between the two women, at least Coutts' impression of them. Not only is Connie associated with tradition and even religion ("rectory" suggesting a religious home) but with an idolized passed. He says that Wini is unnatural, but frankly I can't help but feel that his relationship with Connie is too much of a dream. It too may be unnatural. And why is Winifred unnatural? That's a very sensitve word for Lawrence. He is always striving to capture what is natural in man. For him to call Winifred unnatural carries a lot of weight. You would think that Winifred's sexuality would be natural for Lawrence. Until you realize that she is playing with sexuality, and that for Lawrence is incredibly unnatural. The magic that Wini weaves is an unnatural element.Quote:
He ran upstairs. The sense of freedom, of intimacy, was very fascinating. As he washed, the little everyday action of twining his hands in the lather set him suddenly considering his other love. At her house he was always polite and formal; gentlemanly, in short. With Connie he felt the old, manly superiority; he was the knight, strong and tender, she was the beautiful maiden with a touch of God on her brow. He kissed her, he softened and selected his speech for her, he forbore from being the greater part of himself. She was his betrothed, his wife, his queen, whom he loved to idealise, and for whom he carefully modified himself. She should rule him later on--that part of him which was hers. But he loved her, too, with a pitying, tender love. He thought of her tears upon her pillow in the northern Rectory, and he bit his lip, held his breath under the strain of the situation. Vaguely he knew she would bore him. And Winifred fascinated him. He and she really played with fire. In her house, he was roused and keen. But she was not, and never could be, frank. So he was not frank, even to himself. Saying nothing, betraying nothing, immediately they were together they began the same game. Each shuddered, each defenceless and exposed, hated the other by turns. Yet they came together again. Coutts felt a vague fear of Winifred. She was intense and unnatural--and he became unnatural and intense, beside her.
Another observation on this paragragh, and it has to do with style. I find it immensely interesting that he buckles the observations of the two women together here into one paragragh. If one were writing this without consciously crafting the paragragh, almost everyone I think would have separated the paragragh into two paragraghs, one for the Connie section and one for the Wini. But Lawrence buckles the two together. It's a conscious effort to show a stark line between the two, has the two women almost butting into conflict, and captures the subconscious dynamics of Coutts' mind.
:lol: Ok. I thought it unusual but perhaps you're right. :) Though it stll strikes me as an important paragragh. It's the only paragragh where we get description of his relationship with Connie. And he does have Winifred intrude into the paragragh.
Virgil, I read Antiquarian's comments and then your's to her, right after her post; so, I decided to go back to your original post first. I wanted to address it directly, that seemed to me logical.
Even though, this poem is basically about his mother, one could not say Lawrence saw the piano without a great deal of passion, within himself. I don't think, he would have used the line "piano appasionata", if he did not see the piano as stirring his deepest emotions. I feel these emotions, when I read this poem, almost as though, I could hear and feel the piano keys, resounding with that special music so dear to Lawrence. Lawrence's 'genius' is that, he can convey these deep down feelings. He just taps into this sort of thing so naturally.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
Is that riot or what? 30 pages plus! Geez.. Well, in many of the posts, you may recall, that we were arguing about whether this or that character was likable, or unlikable or even hated. Glad we finally got to discussing the actual text, because so much has been revealed from it. The written word never lies....it may be curious and ambiguous, at times, but it is always fun to try to figure out, just what the author meant by those words.Quote:
I can't believe how much conversation you guys have had. Discussion of this story must be over 30 pages at this point. This is way more discussion than any of our previous stories.
I was just about to get to this part. Been dying to discuss this paragraph. I will post more text tonight, since I am going out today to a concert. But yes, this paragraph is certainly 'key' to us understanding the difference between how Coutts views the two women, and his difference is very apparent here.Quote:
I'm not sure if you've passed this passage yet, but I thought it was a very significant one:
Dichotomy is a great word....did we spell that right?;) :lol: Anyway, I do totally agree with you on this paragraph. Oddly enough last night I was re-listening to "Women in Love", Virgil, and I came to that scene when Rupert confronts Hermione; it is in the chapter Class-room towards the end of the chapter. I could not get over the same imagery being used; referring to 'The Lady of Shallot' and the looking glass. I will go online and try and find the text to quote because I think this whole idea relates and is so similar to the way he views Winifred. I would never have thought of Hermione as related to Winifred but in this one respect of their ideas of passion it is so similar. I think by reading this passage I became more aware now of just precisely what Lawrence is trying to get across in this short story. At one furious moment, in the text Rupert even called Hermione... "a palpable body of darkness, a demon"...and when she asks "but why should I be a demon--?"... Rupert replies "Woman waiting for her demon lover--"Quote:
We can see the dichotomy between the two women, at least Coutts' impression of them. Not only is Connie associated with tradition and even religion ("rectory" suggesting a religious home) but with an idolized passed. He says that Wini is unnatural, but frankly I can't help but feel that his relationship with Connie is too much of a dream. It too may be unnatural. And why is Winifred unnatural? That's a very sensitve word for Lawrence. He is always striving to capture what is natural in man. For him to call Winifred unnatural carries a lot of weight. You would think that Winifred's sexuality would be natural for Lawrence. Until you realize that she is playing with sexuality, and that for Lawrence is incredibly unnatural. The magic that Wini weaves is an unnatural element.
Does anyone know who he is quoting there? It seems like quote from another author or writing.
I came back to add this (editing my post). I found it on this site - from chapter 3 of "Women in Love":
I think this section, not only is similar to what soon is said,between Coutts and Winifred (the mirror idea),but expounds on that more and makes Lawrence's blood philosophy a bit clearer. Also,to note:when I was listening to this part last night several times it mentioned that Rupert Birkin and Hermione had a love/hate relationship. I thought that was interesting,since Coutts and Winifred seem to have the same type relationship. Of course,Birkin and Hermoine had been lovers and I don't surmise that Coutts and Winifred had been sexual with each other.Quote:
Hermione set hard and poisonous against this attack. Ursula stood covered with wonder and shame. It frightened her, to see how they hated each other.
`It's all that Lady of Shalott business,' he said, in his strong abstract voice. He seemed to be charging her before the unseeing air. `You've got that mirror, your own fixed will, your immortal understanding, your own tight conscious world, and there is nothing beyond it. There, in the mirror, you must have everything. But now you have come to all your conclusions, you want to go back and be like a savage, without knowledge. You want a life of pure sensation and "passion."'
He quoted the last word satirically against her. She sat convulsed with fury and violation, speechless, like a stricken pythoness of the Greek oracle.
`But your passion is a lie,' he went on violently. `It isn't passion at all, it is your will. It's your bullying will. You want to clutch things and have them in your power. You want to have things in your power. And why? Because you haven't got any real body, any dark sensual body of life. You have no sensuality. You have only your will and your conceit of consciousness, and your lust for power, to know.'
He looked at her in mingled hate and contempt, also in pain because she suffered, and in shame because he knew he tortured her. He had an impulse to kneel and plead for forgiveness. But a bitterer red anger burned up to fury in him. He became unconscious of her, he was only a passionate voice speaking.
`Spontaneous!' he cried. `You and spontaneity! You, the most deliberate thing that ever walked or crawled! You'd be verily deliberately spontaneous -- that's you. Because you want to have everything in your own volition, your deliberate voluntary consciousness. You want it all in that loathsome little skull of yours, that ought to be cracked like a nut. For you'll be the same till it is cracked, like an insect in its skin. If one cracked your skull perhaps one might get a spontaneous, passionate woman out of you, with real sensuality. As it is, what you want is pornography -- looking at yourself in mirrors, watching your naked animal actions in mirrors, so that you can have it all in your consciousness, make it all mental.'
There was a sense of violation in the air, as if too much was said, the unforgivable. Yet Ursula was concerned now only with solving her own problems, in the light of his words. She was pale and abstracted.
`But do you really want sensuality?' she asked, puzzled.
Birkin looked at her, and became intent in his explanation.
`Yes,' he said, `that and nothing else, at this point. It is a fulfilment -- the great dark knowledge you can't have in your head -- the dark involuntary being. It is death to one's self -- but it is the coming into being of another.'
`But how? How can you have knowledge not in your head?' she asked, quite unable to interpret his phrases.
`In the blood,' he answered; `when the mind and the known world is drowned in darkness everything must go -- there must be the deluge. Then you find yourself a palpable body of darkness, a demon --'
`But why should I be a demon --?' she asked.
`"Woman wailing for her demon lover" --' he quoted -- `why, I don't know.'
Hermione roused herself as from a death -- annihilation.
Also note Birkin's insistence on the idea of 'will' which I know Virgil has brought up in other stories and I brought up earlier in this story.
Well, Antiquarian, you don't think it is genius and Virgil does. Hey, Antiquarian, maybe you are more of a genius than you think you are. You know Lawrence hated being called 'genius'..in fact he told Frieda he was called that but he thought he was a good writer and would maybe become a great writer. He said writing takes practice. No doubt by the time Lawrence wrote this story he had had a great deal of practice.Quote:
Another observation on this paragragh, and it has to do with style. I find it immensely interesting that he buckles the observations of the two women together here into one paragragh. If one were writing this without consciously crafting the paragragh, almost everyone I think would have separated the paragragh into two paragraghs, one for the Connie section and one for the Wini. But Lawrence buckles the two together. It's a conscious effort to show a stark line between the two, has the two women almost butting into conflict, and captures the subconscious dynamics of Coutts' mind.
I personally do think it brilliant the way he incorporated the two women in the paragraph at a key moment in the story. His timing was always so good. He places this paragraph in the text just when it is needed to explain and reveal to us more about his relationship with his betrothed.
Then as Virgil, points out he does have the two woman almost aligned in a sort of conflict or combat. The conflict/combat, is within Coutts himself; as Virgil so aptly put it, it 'captures the subconscious dynamics of Coutt's mind.'
The two women are sort of intertwined in this one paragraph, as the snake image of the train involves an intertwining in the previous text we discussed. Perhaps the gold-and-black snake represents this struggle within Coutt's subconcious mind and the struggle is that involving the two women. The dark side could represent Winifred and the ligth side Connie. It is just a thought.
That is an interesting passage from Women In Love. Do you think Winifred is similar to Hermione? Quite possible, although Wnifred is half way likable. "Woman wailing for her demon lover" is from Colridge's "Kubla Khan." Here's the entire poem:
Quote:
Kubla Khan
OR, A VISION IN A DREAM.
A FRAGMENT.
by Samual Taylor Coleridge
In Xanadu did Kubla Khan
A stately pleasure-dome decree :
Where Alph, the sacred river, ran
Through caverns measureless to man
Down to a sunless sea.
So twice five miles of fertile ground
With walls and towers were girdled round :
And there were gardens bright with sinuous rills,
Where blossomed many an incense-bearing tree ;
And here were forests ancient as the hills,
Enfolding sunny spots of greenery.
But oh ! that deep romantic chasm which slanted
Down the green hill athwart a cedarn cover !
A savage place ! as holy and enchanted
As e'er beneath a waning moon was haunted
By woman wailing for her demon-lover !
And from this chasm, with ceaseless turmoil seething,
As if this earth in fast thick pants were breathing,
A mighty fountain momently was forced :
Amid whose swift half-intermitted burst
Huge fragments vaulted like rebounding hail,
Or chaffy grain beneath the thresher's flail :
And 'mid these dancing rocks at once and ever
It flung up momently the sacred river.
Five miles meandering with a mazy motion
Through wood and dale the sacred river ran,
Then reached the caverns measureless to man,
And sank in tumult to a lifeless ocean :
And 'mid this tumult Kubla heard from far
Ancestral voices prophesying war !
The shadow of the dome of pleasure
Floated midway on the waves ;
Where was heard the mingled measure
From the fountain and the caves.
It was a miracle of rare device,
A sunny pleasure-dome with caves of ice !
A damsel with a dulcimer
In a vision once I saw :
It was an Abyssinian maid,
And on her dulcimer she played,
Singing of Mount Abora.
Could I revive within me
Her symphony and song,
To such a deep delight 'twould win me,
That with music loud and long,
I would build that dome in air,
That sunny dome ! those caves of ice !
And all who heard should see them there,
And all should cry, Beware ! Beware !
His flashing eyes, his floating hair !
Weave a circle round him thrice,
And close your eyes with holy dread,
For he on honey-dew hath fed,
And drunk the milk of Paradise.
I don't think the two women, Winifred and Hermoine, are alike in personality. However I do think they are similar in the way in which Lawrence conceived their characters and then perceived them; I think that they both have the same problem when it comes with relationships; true ones. They cannot connect physically (in the deep blood sense) to a man, as Lawrence is explaining to both women, throught his male characters. They can view passion in themselves, but they cannot really experience passion or connect on that level with a man, in the deeper sense - which is devoid of 'self-consciousness'.Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil
It is curious that Lawrence would use the same symbolism, reference to "Lady Shallot" and the looking glass in both stories; and at the same time, I think that makes it even more significant. He explains this idea much clearer in this passage, from 'Women in Love", and this confrontation between Rupert and Hermione. He expands this whole idea/concept in the novel; whereas, in the short story, one is left thinking and surmising, just what Lawrence means - in relationship to Winifred and these symbols and her degree of passionate release. I hope that is clear. It is hard to explain actually and I am a little tired out right now. Guess it was my big dinner; I feel sleepy.
Anyway, Virgil, thanks for looking up the poem - how did you find it? or were you familiar with this poem and that line? A few key lines really stand out to me. This part from which Lawrence extracted that line in the story, is quite interesting:
That sounds like images used continually in the story, in the symbol of the 'waning moon', images of 'holy and enchanted', 'savage', and 'haunted'; and finally, in Lawrence's direct mention of a 'woman wailing for her demon-lover'.Quote:
A savage place ! as holy and enchanted
As e'er beneath a waning moon was haunted
By woman wailing for her demon-lover !
I am not sure I fully understand this poem, but the imagery is similar to what Lawrence employs in this short story(ies). I like this part of the poem:
"A sunny pleasure-dome with caves of ice!" - interesting duality here - the sun and the ice - two frequent ideas that Lawrence often employs symbolically in this stories and novels. Also, note the liberal use of words relating to music, throughtout the poem and often in conjuction with pleasure. This poem is really lovely and mysterious.Quote:
It was a miracle of rare device,
A sunny pleasure-dome with caves of ice !
A damsel with a dulcimer
In a vision once I saw :
It was an Abyssinian maid,
And on her dulcimer she played,
Singing of Mount Abora.
Could I revive within me
Her symphony and song,
To such a deep delight 'twould win me,
That with music loud and long,
I would build that dome in air,
That sunny dome ! those caves of ice !
This part is great -
"Could I revive within me
Her symphony and song,
To such a deep delight 'twould win me,.."
The whole poem actually is very musical, and very mystical, mysterious. I will read it over again and maybe print it out to muse on the deeper meanings behind the words. Thanks again Virgil for finiding it and posting it.
Good thoughts Janine. I pretty much agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by Janine
Well, that is one of the differences between a short story and a novel. It's not correct to conceive of a short story as a short version of a novel. They are two different art forms.Quote:
It is curious that Lawrence would use the same symbolism, reference to "Lady Shallot" and the looking glass in both stories; and at the same time, I think that makes it even more significant. He explains this idea much clearer in this passage, from 'Women in Love", and this confrontation between Rupert and Hermione. He expands this whole idea/concept in the novel; whereas, in the short story, one is left thinking and surmising, just what Lawrence means - in relationship to Winifred and these symbols and her degree of passionate release. I hope that is clear. It is hard to explain actually and I am a little tired out right now. Guess it was my big dinner; I feel sleepy.
I knew it. I pretty much know most of the classic Romantic poems off the cuff. ;)Quote:
Anyway, Virgil, thanks for looking up the poem - how did you find it? or were you familiar with this poem and that line?
The poem does have a lot of musical elements to it. And it is about being charmed too.Quote:
That sounds like images used continually in the story, in the symbol of the 'waning moon', images of 'holy and enchanted', 'savage', and 'haunted'; and finally, in Lawrence's direct mention of a 'woman wailing for her demon-lover'.
I am not sure I fully understand this poem, but the imagery is similar to what Lawrence employs in this short story(ies).
This is one of those poems one should know. If you wish we could discuss it off line.Quote:
"A sunny pleasure-dome with caves of ice!" - interesting duality here - the sun and the ice - two frequent ideas that Lawrence often employs symbolically in this stories and novels. Also, note the liberal use of words relating to music, throughtout the poem and often in conjuction with pleasure. This poem is really lovely and mysterious.
This part is great -
"Could I revive within me
Her symphony and song,
To such a deep delight 'twould win me,.."
The whole poem actually is very musical, and very mystical, mysterious. I will read it over again and maybe print it out to muse on the deeper meanings behind the words. Thanks again Virgil for finiding it and posting it.
I've always said that the short story is the art of telling a story or tale whle the novel is the art of capturing life in writing. Now there is overlap, but I think their primary core focus is somewhat different. Perhaps one day we should discuss it. Down the road I hope. Too many things going on these days. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiquarian
Oh thanks. Hey I'm old. I've read the core classic poems many times over. Not sure how old you are. Plus I'm not sure I've seen you in the poetry discussions, so perhaps you don't have the same interest in poetry as stories. One can read a poem many times over, and usually does. ;)Quote:
Virgil, you are lucky to remember poems like that. Lucky or skilled. Probably both. ;) I can't do it.
Oh I absolutely agree with that. But those are characteristics of craft.Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiquarian
Yes, I think that's what I was suggesting when I distinguished them by art forms. The short story requires a unified story while a novel is multifaceted and strives to capture life. Take Melville's Moby Dick for instance. Melville could have written a couple of thirty page stories from the story part of his material. But when he expanded it to include the whaling life and skill metaphorically tied into his themes, then he expanded his art beyond a story. It's no longer just a tale, but a representation of a particular vision of life.Quote:
This unity is what distinguishes it from the novel.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiquarian
Virgil and Antiquarian, I certainly agree, also. I just posted that section of "Women in Love" because as I was listening to it last night and got to that part about "The Lady of Shallot" and the looking glass, the whole concept struck me and it cleared up the idea for me of the short story's meaning, concerning those specific images. I agree about all the things you pointed out in conjuction with short stories, Antiquarian.
Secondly, I quoted that part of the novel, because I think it showed how Lawrence felt specifically about passion, sensuality and relationships. This section expresses aspects of Lawrence's 'blood conscienceness'; therefore, I felt it related to our story text in some ways.
I can remember certain lines (if I hear them) and recall what poems they were quoted from; but not the Greek classics, as Virgil is familiar with. I am not familiar enough with those, I regret to say.
Quote by Antiquarian:
Quote:
I think the short story captures life, too, but only a moment in one life. It has a pinpoint focus that the novel doesn't have. The novel is panoramic, or at least it can be.
Some novels do that also - capture a moment in life....but in a series of many moments in life. I feel that Lawrence does this often. His novels all seem this way to me. It seems each scene and chapter, especially in "Women in Love" are merely moments connecting to each other, intertwining in a sort of intricate pattern. I don't know if that could be called 'panoramic'. I see Lawrence's work more 'microscopic'. He is one author who delves far below the surface, of his characters and their intimate moments in relation to time/place. In Lawrence's novels, I still percieve a kind of 'pinpoint' focus that you say only exists in short stories, Antiquarian.
So, I am not sure I entirely agree with you. I guess that could be a debate in itself, as to what the exact formula is for a short story and that for a novel. I might not know enough about it myself. I was looking beyond the formula, when I posted that section from Lawrence's novel. I was looking for the concepts behind the symbolism and the ideas. I may have been viewing it too microscopically, but I feel it was one of those moments in Lawrence's writing that reveals much of how Lawrence thought and that it did relate to this short story, in concept and symbolism.
Where are you reading about his personal life, Antiquarian...just curious? There are so many biographers out there and some sources are not so accurate. Is this from one of the Cambridge books?Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiquarian
Do you mean Coutts doesn't find Connie beautiful? I thought he had said she was. The woman who Connie corresponds to in Lawrence's real life was quite lovely, I think.
Here again, one can't judge Lawrence's life with a 'black and white' verdict, nor the women in his life. It is way more complex and complicated than that. After reading "Sons and Lovers", I felt I really did not hate anyone...I can honestly say that. I felt so after reading two full length biographies, as well. I felt all the people in Lawrence's life had their flaws and they all were human and made poor decisions, at times. Lawrence may have treated Jessie unkindly, but I don't think he would have been right for her or she for him; not in the long run. Their relationship was a very intense, but conflicted one. There is no doubt that his break with her was heartbreaking. yes, he hurt her but he also was quite conflicted about women at that time. If you read the book you will see just how complicated it all is. Jessie Chambers did write her own biography of Lawrence, but I have never read it. I read that it is quite biased but still I do find I have a curiosity to read her side of the story. It is nearly impossible to come by. I have it in my Amazon 'wishlist', but it is still too expensive for used copy.